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BioWare are writing gods and plot-twist masters : Indoctrination theory is right


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#326
Ghost of a Messiah

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Razgriz9327 wrote...

I wish that it was true, but I can't see it being the case at this point... if they had announced it they would have done it soon after it had completed all its international releases... I could buy that after all the leaks that they had, they decided to use it as a publicity stunt... but the lack of response at this point leads me to abandon hope... if they do it, awesome... but i think the perfect window of opportunity has passed


How long ago do you think they knew they'd be at PAX april 6th? If I were them I'd be doing the same thing. Sticking to the plan. Can you imagine what would happen to sales if they went to PAX and said 2 words, "Indoctrination Theory"? Sales would be higher then day one sales. People who returned their game would just feel stupid because they jumped the gun... Then because of everything that has trhanspired they could play the victim on top of all that. It would be the perfect plan.

While this would be amazing and make me eat my word, publish a complete writing peice on why this was a brilliant move and at the same time make me buy out the entire Bioware store...

I just don't see this happening. 


May I direct you to something called Pascal's wager... It might explain a better reason to believe.

http://en.wikipedia..../Pascal's_Wager


I'm familiar with Pascal, however why would they be silent and let sales drop along with stock and reputation? It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint...

I want to believe...


Why not ultimately look like the "good guys"? That fear you extrapilated from the Dr.'s statment, Could it have been sleight doubt in a plan of this scope?

#327
Major Durza

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The main thing that convinces me this is true is a somewhat overlooked plot hole.

If you destroy the Reapers, which by this theory is breaking their influence, you live.
This is the ONLY way you do!

Now, you are on the Citadel ABOVE Earth! It blows up, you fall towards Earth, go through atmospheric reentry, land after falling a few miles in a pile or rubble... and LIVE? What?

Sounds like you got knocked out, and all that WAS an illusion.
THAT was the selling point. One of the largest plot holes is Shepard living, only with ONE choice.

#328
Ghost of a Messiah

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Major Durza wrote...

The main thing that convinces me this is true is a somewhat overlooked plot hole.

If you destroy the Reapers, which by this theory is breaking their influence, you live.
This is the ONLY way you do!

Now, you are on the Citadel ABOVE Earth! It blows up, you fall towards Earth, go through atmospheric reentry, land after falling a few miles in a pile or rubble... and LIVE? What?

Sounds like you got knocked out, and all that WAS an illusion.
THAT was the selling point. One of the largest plot holes is Shepard living, only with ONE choice.


True, IT is the only probable explaination.

Modifié par Ghost of a Messiah, 23 mars 2012 - 08:30 .


#329
Akaki

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I'd really like to know who's responsible for the current ending and whether or not the rumors about the kinnect implementation being the reason for scenario cuts are true.

#330
captainbob8383

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Another little thing that gives me some hope is the fact that Bioware reacted real fast.

Maybe I’m misinterpreting but, if you step back and look at the full picture:
- one week after release: sticky threads about controversial ending are created.
- two weeks after release: Ray Muzyka post a blog note about some ending DLC.

All that happened really fast, just as if our reaction was expected and all was already planned.
I mean creating a DLC requires months:  validating budget, planning, writing, developing, marketing etc …
Even if fans were indeed very upset and vocal, it’s not something you can announce in the spur of the moment.

Once again, I’m surely just grasping at anything to not become fully depressed but ...

Modifié par captainbob8383, 23 mars 2012 - 09:02 .


#331
KaeserZen

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captainbob8383 wrote...

Another little thing that gives me some hope is the fact that Bioware reacted real fast.

Maybe I’m misinterpreting but, if you step back and look at the full picture:
- one week after release: sticky threads about controversial ending are created.
- two weeks after release: Ray Muzyka post a blog note about some ending DLC.

All that happened really fast, just as if our reaction was expected and all was already planned.
I mean creating a DLC requires months:  validating budget, planning, writing, developing, marketing etc …
Even if fans were indeed very upset and vocal, it’s not something you can announce in the spur of the moment.

Once again, I’m surely just grasping at anything to not become fully depressed but ...



That is a very good point actually. BioWare is known for very long developpement cycles and decision making.

I remember for SW:TOR that they would take a long while to adress concerns that were brought up and that they didn't think about.

I beleive, however, that BioWare is not scared by controversies and that they stand their ground. As such, if it was something they didn't plan, they would go public and state that there are not any DLC in the works.

To people pointing Casey Hudson saying no DLC post-campaign : what if this isn't the end of the campaign, and that the end of the campaign is planned in a DLC already ? It would make his statement true without invalidating a "true ending" DLC.

#332
Robhuzz

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Razgriz9327 wrote...

I wish that it was true, but I can't see it being the case at this point... if they had announced it they would have done it soon after it had completed all its international releases... I could buy that after all the leaks that they had, they decided to use it as a publicity stunt... but the lack of response at this point leads me to abandon hope... if they do it, awesome... but i think the perfect window of opportunity has passed


How long ago do you think they knew they'd be at PAX april 6th? If I were them I'd be doing the same thing. Sticking to the plan. Can you imagine what would happen to sales if they went to PAX and said 2 words, "Indoctrination Theory"? Sales would be higher then day one sales. People who returned their game would just feel stupid because they jumped the gun... Then because of everything that has trhanspired they could play the victim on top of all that. It would be the perfect plan.

While this would be amazing and make me eat my word, publish a complete writing peice on why this was a brilliant move and at the same time make me buy out the entire Bioware store...

I just don't see this happening. 


May I direct you to something called Pascal's wager... It might explain a better reason to believe.

http://en.wikipedia..../Pascal's_Wager


I'm familiar with Pascal, however why would they be silent and let sales drop along with stock and reputation? It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint...

I want to believe...


Because even negative publicity is publicity. They've already sold a ton of copies and the ending controversy has made Mass Effect 3 known even to people who never play games.

Just yesterday I was working at school and some guys behind me were watching the Mass Effect ending, saying that it didn't make any sense. People are talking about it everywhere. All major and minor game sites had articles on it (before getting sucked into the stupid entitlement/artistic integrity discussion and making a fool of themselves by picking a side). Mass Effect 3 was in the news, on TV and in the newspapers even. There was no escaping from it.

If BioWare were to add a patch that adds the real ending, everyone will be hearing this. More marketing for the game. Plus BioWare will be known as the first company to pull a stunt like this, increasing reputation...

I'm not saying there aren't any risks and I do not pretend to understand BioWare's exact reasoning behind it but I feel it was done on purpose no matter what the PR responses from Ray and Casey stated.

#333
Myskal1981

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Robhuzz wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

Razgriz9327 wrote...

I wish that it was true, but I can't see it being the case at this point... if they had announced it they would have done it soon after it had completed all its international releases... I could buy that after all the leaks that they had, they decided to use it as a publicity stunt... but the lack of response at this point leads me to abandon hope... if they do it, awesome... but i think the perfect window of opportunity has passed


How long ago do you think they knew they'd be at PAX april 6th? If I were them I'd be doing the same thing. Sticking to the plan. Can you imagine what would happen to sales if they went to PAX and said 2 words, "Indoctrination Theory"? Sales would be higher then day one sales. People who returned their game would just feel stupid because they jumped the gun... Then because of everything that has trhanspired they could play the victim on top of all that. It would be the perfect plan.

While this would be amazing and make me eat my word, publish a complete writing peice on why this was a brilliant move and at the same time make me buy out the entire Bioware store...

I just don't see this happening. 


May I direct you to something called Pascal's wager... It might explain a better reason to believe.

http://en.wikipedia..../Pascal's_Wager


I'm familiar with Pascal, however why would they be silent and let sales drop along with stock and reputation? It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint...

I want to believe...


Because even negative publicity is publicity. They've already sold a ton of copies and the ending controversy has made Mass Effect 3 known even to people who never play games.

Just yesterday I was working at school and some guys behind me were watching the Mass Effect ending, saying that it didn't make any sense. People are talking about it everywhere. All major and minor game sites had articles on it (before getting sucked into the stupid entitlement/artistic integrity discussion and making a fool of themselves by picking a side). Mass Effect 3 was in the news, on TV and in the newspapers even. There was no escaping from it.

If BioWare were to add a patch that adds the real ending, everyone will be hearing this. More marketing for the game. Plus BioWare will be known as the first company to pull a stunt like this, increasing reputation...

I'm not saying there aren't any risks and I do not pretend to understand BioWare's exact reasoning behind it but I feel it was done on purpose no matter what the PR responses from Ray and Casey stated.



You are still completely disregarding the fact that this is not only damaging Bioware but also retailers. Amazon is incurring costs for refunds and they are missing on sales and now they have to offer discounts to get the games ot of their stock. And Amazon is just an example.

You cannot assume that sales will pick up if Bioware comes out with a DLC. Today's news are forgotten tomorrow, the next game will take over the headlines.

Game magazines risk their necks by calling us spoiled whiners so in the long run they will have a negative impact.

Why should Bioware and even more EA do this to their business partners?

 

 

#334
KaeserZen

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Robhuzz wrote...

Because even negative publicity is publicity. They've already sold a ton of copies and the ending controversy has made Mass Effect 3 known even to people who never play games.


Exactly : "Good talk, bad talk, the point is talking about it". It promotes the product to many new faces, and is free advertisement.

If their plan was to twist the ending, then they'll change all the bad talk into good talk, while paying strictly nothing (or a few sales drop/refunds) for the traffic volume they got.

#335
evisneffo

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Let me abuse this quote again because it sums up succinctly how I feel:

Luiginius wrote...

If you go with the indoctrination version, Shepard is still taking a nap in downtown London. A worthy ending to a trilogy.



And supposing this is in fact not the case:

KaeserZen wrote...

Perhaps they didn't want anyone to have the ending of this marvelous franchise spoiled, and kept the true ending under total wraps for a later release ?

KaeserZen wrote...

It's possible they felt they ran out of time, and did a placeholder ending as a good opportunity to mess with us and still get us pumped !


I'm sorry but I just can't agree with you on any of this. It makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective to do this to your customers, and to drag it out this long with the kind of backlash and revenue loss that is occurring. This is something that happens in April Fools' jokes, or trolling on the internet. This is not the way a business that would like to stay in business treats paying customers. Someone buying a car would be unimpressed if the car arrived without a windscreen because the manufacturer thought it would be a good joke if they couldn't experience the true form of the car until some arbitrary later date. If this does turn out to be true in the end, the company will have lost a hefty amount of respect from me.


ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

If you haven't played KoToR or Deus Ex by now you weren't going to games are like 10+ years old now hell you can't even find them without effort or a torrent.


Ha, I bought KoTOR on Steam last year. Thankfully I was able to quickly scroll past the other comments.

Modifié par evisneffo, 23 mars 2012 - 09:58 .


#336
KaeserZen

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Myskal1981 wrote...

Why should Bioware and even more EA do this to their business partners?

 


To be honest, no matter what EA/BioWare does, they are in a position of strength in regards to the retailers. Simply put, retailers can not afford to boycott these products.

Why ? Digital Download has been penetrated by Origin and if 1physical game retailer boycotts an EA product, they will lose the traffic to the retailers that don't, and they will get all the sales volumes.

I also would like to point out that the number of returns is probably insignficant in respect to the number of sales. At best, it slightly dents the retailers margins.

Modifié par KaeserZen, 23 mars 2012 - 09:58 .


#337
nullobject

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 OP you are so correct.

There is no precedent for Bioware to produce such poor writing.

I wrote all about this the other day.(includes important evidence that many have overlooked)

Modifié par nullobject, 23 mars 2012 - 10:22 .


#338
HowlettShark

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Wish I could have the OP's optimism.

#339
Zohrdan

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I want to believe the Indoctrination....

but the ALIVE SCENE is most likely not in London
http://img21.imagesh...1/15/itscit.png
The wires are from the citadel...

Than the trees as a proof that it is all a dream...
http://img36.imagesh...6/2161/dwmz.jpg

there are trees on the battleflied before it

And
Than the deleted death-scene of your Squad....


It just looks like BW srewed up badly by changing the games end 2 months before release. By adding the boy 2 the game.

I hope that it is not the case and I'm wrong...

Modifié par Zohrdan, 23 mars 2012 - 10:28 .


#340
oneDRTYrusn

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I do like the Indoctrination Theory, but a big part of me thinks that it's not what they planned or intended. I do think that they sat at their table, talking about it, and collectively said "Damn, I wish we would have done that."

The Indoctrination Theory would have been a good plot twist, and in a way would allow them to keep their artistic integrity intact.

I personally didn't mind the endings, I just wish there was more to them. I'm not one that needs closure or a happy ending. If they "fix" the ending with a patch or DLC, I'm hoping it adds a little bit more meat to the end story. If it just turns out to be an extended super director's cut of the ending, I'll be a bit annoyed, but still have the same feeling overall.

Modifié par oneDRTYrusn, 23 mars 2012 - 10:29 .


#341
Myskal1981

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KaeserZen wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Why should Bioware and even more EA do this to their business partners?

 


To be honest, no matter what EA/BioWare does, they are in a position of strength in regards to the retailers. Simply put, retailers can not afford to boycott these products.

Why ? Digital Download has been penetrated by Origin and if 1physical game retailer boycotts an EA product, they will lose the traffic to the retailers that don't, and they will get all the sales volumes.

I also would like to point out that the number of returns is probably insignficant in respect to the number of sales. At best, it slightly dents the retailers margins.


Position of strength? I forgot, digital downloads are cheaper than retail, because the publishers do not fear the retailer backlash. Ah no, that is not true. Content providers are more powerful than the distributors/retailers? In what world do you live? Not in a one in which Apple and Amazon exist.

Well, everyone buys on Origin, right? Well, also not the case. I put Amazon as example here that can be applied to other retailers.

The message remains that Bioware/EA would have willingly risked customer backlash not only against themselves put others included. That is something everyone would not forget, I give you that. It would also mean Bioware/EA would face severe consequences. A FTC complaint is nothing compared to that.


Business world is ruled by accurate sales projections, minimize financial impact and avoidance of legal exposure, not gambling or pranks.

But hey, I won't be able to convince anyone here and you will not be able to convince me, so all this is like a moot point.

#342
xdognatex

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hallelujah! SPECULATIONS!

#343
Rothy87

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I believe in the Indoctrination Theory and I also believe it was intentional.  After watching the video explaining the theory, it's very very hard to dismiss the points it makes.  And I find it extremely hard to believe that BioWare would mess up the end of their biggest game franchise.  During my first playthrough of the ending I noticed several things that seemd out of place:

- the unlimited ammo pistol (also notice the lack of a HUD)

- Shepard's armor was changed back to it's default form. Eventhough it's completely charred and taken massive damage, it's the default N7 armor.  BioWare has NEVER forced an armor change for cutscenes

- When talking to the Starchild, Shepard is in space without a breathing helmet.  Also, the atmosphere and dialogue have a dreamesque qaulity to them.

- If you pick the Destroy option, you get the breath scene, which seems to have a different graphcial appearance.  It kind of looks more high-end to me but that could just be me.

Now when it came down to making a decision on which path to take--left, center, or right--I actually failed and got the MISSION FAILED - Crucible Destroyed screen because I took too long to decide:crying:  So technically there is a 4th ending here...

Anywho, after a quick reload, I ended up picking the center synthesis path because at the time it seemed to me to be the option that helped everybody (yes, Reapers included)  and I'm just that super nice guy/gal who wants to do right by everyone.  But if the I.T. holds up to be true, then well, I guess I just got indoctrinated :(

I noticed a lot of people are complaining about how there is only one "right" path--the destroy path.  Yes, the destroy path hints that Shepard may be alive to fight another day, thus extending your gameplay time, but that doesn't neccesarily mean it's the "true" ending to the game.  The Mass Effect series has been about making choices and suffering consequences.  Up until now, the consequences have been pretty minimal so I think it's about time BioWare hits us with something hard--like death. 

Real life has life and death consequences, and it also has moments where we are tricked into believing certain things.  People swindle each other every freaking day, and make each other do things they wouldn't normally do.  So why can't BioWare incorporate such things into a video game?  Personally, I say more power to BioWare for actually including an ending where Shepard dies--either real or indocrinated--to the point where your game ends. If I lose the ability to play additional content because of a choice I made, then so be it.  I made the choice to pick this option so I should get what comes with it.  And if I don't like it, I can just reload and pick another option.  Capcom did something similar with Dead Rising.  If you don't reach an important scoop in time, poof!--your story is over.  Sure you can still run around kicking zombie faces in but the plotline is over.  So you reload, or rather restart with the same character.

Speaking of reloads, did anyone else notice the timestamp of your save files?  The autosave file/restart mission file for the final citadel mission reads 35 hours.  But after the credits end and I go back to the Normandy to save my game, the timestamp reads 32 hours.  That's the same time as the save file I made prior to landing on Earth. 

Also, the final message of the game says that you can continue to build the Legend of Shepard now that you've completed the game.  How could you possibly build up the reputation for someone who's already dead?  Not to mention it's your Shepard that's going to be walking around the galaxy finishing up some of those side quests.  From my perspective, the ending I just experienced feels like placeholder ending--something to hold us over for whatever is coming next.

Sorry for the long post everyone, but I felt it was neccesary.  Plus, I read all 14 pages of this thread prior to posting so I wanted to try and touch upon a lot of points at once rather than quoting a bunch of people in separate posts.

#344
The Divine Avenger

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Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...

I like the idea of the IT but i'm not holding my breath on the count it might be true I'm on the fence with his theory. I'm not willing to commit to the IT as Bioware hurt me enough with the ending they won't do that 2 me again. that being said I can see how it might be true & I can also see it being the best way to go about fixing the ending's because there are many different way's they could go with it.


Don't be that way... If IT is true then they didn't hurt you at all... But if IT is not true then you will have lost nothing because that mean they have fallen too far to be saved.


Your words ring true but even if the IT is true it still means I payed £65 on a game that wasn't finished & that hurts just as much as a retarded ending. Either way it means Bioware is no longer the company I fell in love with so many years ago & it hurts to think of them slowly dying under EA. I don't want that to happen but companys that end up in bed with EA always end up different & not in a good way, it breaks my heart to think of that happening to Bioware.

Modifié par The Divine Avenger, 24 mars 2012 - 05:11 .


#345
Kanon777

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i cant wait in a few weeks when this silly indoc movement finaly dies

#346
The Divine Avenger

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KaeserZen wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Because even negative publicity is publicity. They've already sold a ton of copies and the ending controversy has made Mass Effect 3 known even to people who never play games.


Exactly : "Good talk, bad talk, the point is talking about it". It promotes the product to many new faces, and is free advertisement.

If their plan was to twist the ending, then they'll change all the bad talk into good talk, while paying strictly nothing (or a few sales drop/refunds) for the traffic volume they got.


Yes I agree to a point with you BUT with so much bad talk about ME3 it will make people remember the DA2 outrage that in turn will put people in 2 minds about buying any future Bioware games especialy on the day of release. It will give them a bad rep, if they don't fix the ending then they will be known as the company that lies to it's fans for sales, If they do fix the ending then they'll get the rep of the company that listens to it's fans but it will also come with the company that makes it's fans pay twice for the ending. Either way there is no escaping that this will be a blcak mark on Bioware for a long time to come.

#347
celozzip

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thanks for the ending spoilers for half a dozen other games.

#348
nomoredruggs

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leonia42 wrote...

It's going to burst a lot of bubbles when this theory is knocked on the head.



#349
Cosmar

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I'd like to believe you OP but statements by Bioware have made it pretty clear that these endings are real and were the intended endings.

#350
The Divine Avenger

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Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

NeecHMonkeY wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

NeecHMonkeY wrote...

Indoc Theory is a fantastic plot twist, sure but it really sucks then that the game doesn't have a proper ending 'out of the box'.


If IT is more than theory then I wouldn't have it any other way. I genuinly like the Idea that I have been tricked.


Sure, it's a neat idea and a fantastic marketing tactic... but it also relies on the premise that everyone is connected to the internet (at least their gaming platform).


That certainly is a flaw in the scope of the scheme... But it is a calculated risk as internet is available so widely.


Simple, make back the loss in sales after word has spread that the ending has been fixed then release it on an installation disc for those that don't have the net, Bathesta did it with the Shivering Isles, why not Bioware with ME3.

Either that or release a limited edition later on down the line with all the DLC included, that would increase there sales in the longrun.