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BioWare are writing gods and plot-twist masters : Indoctrination theory is right


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#51
BigGuy28

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Vromrig wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

Indoctrination theory is silly and I'm sick of seeing people constantly bringing it up. It's worse than the endings we got. I'll take "choose your color to screw over the galaxy with" over "lol the last part didn't happen you were really indoctrinated" any day.


Animosity towards theory brought on from misunderstanding.  Indoctrination Theory not interested in plot holes, removal of character choice.

Seeks to resolve, instead.  Enlightenment necessary.  Would probably like it.


You aren't Mordin, you aren't even good at imitating him, stop being an idiot. I do understand it, it's silly and worse than the "choose your color" endings. Nothing will make me like it.

#52
KaeserZen

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Vigil_N7 wrote...

Some of you need to stop holding the line and get back to reality.

The hard truth of the matter is that the current endings we have are the intended ones, whether or not because they were rushed or because bioware honestly thought they made a good ending.

The argument put forward in the video is one that is clutching at straws at best. In the author's defense though, the video is cleverly put together, several moments he puts two unrelated scenes and combines them together in a way that makes them look related. You see this all the time on youtube, usually in conspiracy videos about things like the Illuminati.


Well, I've never seen any Illuminati theories that made as much sense as this video. I could link you to a few other videos I saw that highlighted the arguments as well, but I don't keep a list of the links. I'm pretty sure you can find them on the forums though.

And as Shepard said : "Without hope, we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told" ;)

#53
Xandurpein

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Unfortunately this type of "proof" really just consist of a circular logic. Bioware can never do anything wrong, so this cannot be the right ending. I believe that truth is simply that Bioware can drop the ball and did it...

#54
Ashilana

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Xandurpein wrote...

Unfortunately this type of "proof" really just consist of a circular logic. Bioware can never do anything wrong, so this cannot be the right ending. I believe that truth is simply that Bioware can drop the ball and did it...


It is similar to the logic the starchild forces upon shep... oh wait... I see what you did there.

#55
KaeserZen

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ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

I'm not going to troll instead I'm going to try and say this as nicely as possible. I strongly disagree with the video and the entire idea of the indoctrination theory. The evidence contradicts with each other, clashes, and makes no sense logically, not to mention it's literally a writers taboo in most cases. The "And then he woke up" ending is a cheap one and one that most people tend to avoid especially towards a giant 3 series trilogy. I just don't feel the indoctrination theory is right and most of the evidence seems like forcing puzzle pieces in where they don't fit.


Thank you for keeping it civil ! I understand why these topics stir up deep emotions within everyone, and we all appreciate the effort ;)

I'm interested when you say "The evidence contradicts with each other", so far I've seen pretty solid arguments pro-indoctrination, but perhaps they were presented in a convenient way that went around the inconsistencies. Can you elaborate please ?

Ultra Prism wrote...

According final hours, Bioware was
trying implement indoctrination for final sequence, but was cumbersome.
They probably changed and tried to deceive the player using colorful
endings ... making players believe controlling the reapers is good ... I
mean, I dont trust the reapers, what if they were controlling me all
this time .... destroy ending has special ending at high EMS ... it is
shown right after Joker fleeing scene ... Stargrazer saying one more
story ... then Mass Effect twitter is saying hold out to your saves ....
either this is planned or our bull that our minds couldnt accept the
current endings....PAX they will announced DLC that will CLARIFY the
endings --- meaning they could show it was all dream or indoc ... plot
twist at its best ... The hardcore fans who figured out indoctrination
theory .... I will definitely buy more ME products as long as Shepard is
there

until then
Hold the line


That's the spirit ! Keep it up !

#56
ShepardTheHopeful

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Everyone keeps talking about the secret ending that you can only get with destroy the reapers option....did anyone think it was just simple enough because it's the only option that doesn't require him to sacrifice his body? It couldn't just be that simple? Man gets killed, destroyed beyond repair, rebuilt after a time dead that shouldn't be possible to revive. No one questions that? But Shepard lands in London and suddenly "INDOCTRINATION!" sorry it doesn't fit I have a much more viable reason as to why Indoctrination wouldn't work. Saren talks about synthesis but Shepard already achieved synthesis even the little brat AI says it. He's part man part machine he works with nanobots and implants directly in his brain. Indoctrination works through rewriting the neurological patterns of the brain through differing waves of radio, etc. So no one can assume instead of the reapers indoctrinating him maybe his achievement to synthesis evolution through Cerberus couldn't have blocked the indoctrination? Maybe it was attempted or tried as shown with the Illusive Man but that his implants stopped it.

#57
Coolfaec

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 Image IPB

#58
Kanon777

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Duncaaaaaan wrote...

1/10 made me reply not even mad troll harder etc etc.


duncaaaaaan, youre still here...

#59
Mnementh2230

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BigGuy28 wrote...

Indoctrination theory is silly and I'm sick of seeing people constantly bringing it up. It's worse than the endings we got. I'll take "choose your color to screw over the galaxy with" over "lol the last part didn't happen you were really indoctrinated" any day.


Why do you think it's worse?  Personally, I think it's brilliant.  A masterful twist that (if true) only a few people caught on to originally, with hints that were spread out and only evident to the extremely observant - and you say it's worse?  I mean, sure it could have been a little more obvious, but if it's true, and we *DO* end up getting other endings that line up with what we were promised/lied-to-about...  why would you think it's bad?

#60
The Divine Avenger

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AxholeRose wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

It's going to burst a lot of bubbles when this theory is knocked on the head.


I feel sorry for the people who legitimately believe in this theory without being fanatical about it and shooting down anything else.

I don't feel sorry for the latter, unfortunately. People have been way too confrontational about proving and defending it.

Time will tell, but I'm certainly not expecting them to back it, not as it currently stands. Again, the IT came about as a way to fill in the plotholes, and fans fueled it because there was simply no other explanation that worked for them. If explanations are provided, which presumably they will be, then the IT goes away. =/


I agree with this guy. The confrontational people turned me into a confrontational ****** yesterday.

Will I feel sorry if the theory get shot down? Nope. Because the only way to shoot it down is if we get either a different ending completely that fill in gaps or they just explain stuff where there are no gaps, or they use IT so really, everyone wins either way. True or not once it's proven either way, we should all be happy with a new, complete, or better ending.

More ME = win either way I guess is what I am saying.  


No.  Spending 12+ hours on these forums every day and wasting time in pointless debates turned you into a ******, not other people.  If you let others affect you then you are weak, and not in control of yourself.



No it doesn't meen he's weak at all, the fact that he let's others effect him doesn't make him weak, eg Shep on Zaieed's mission on 2 end's up puching him for being an a** & setting the refinery on fire Shep let him effect her/him does that make Shep weak. NO letting others effect you can make you vulnrible but not weak, it can only make you weak when you aren't aware of the effect they have & why they have that effect. Even the strongest person can be vulnarible true strength is the ability to adapt & learn from your mistakes, if you learn from your mistakes they were never mistakes to begin with..

#61
Zhuinden

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The problem with the indoctrination theory is that it does NOT address how you actually have defeated the Reapers. If the ending showed that Shepard was assumed control of and he beat Harbinger outta there with his mind and when his shields (not marauder) were off Joker would blast Harbinger outta thin air and everyone would be like Yaaaaay and well that would make sense.
It would not be that great - considering I'm not a writer of any kind - BUT it would be an ending.

If the indoctrination theory is correct, then the game doesn't actually end.
That seems wrong for 60$.

#62
GBGriffin

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Mnementh2230 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

Indoctrination theory is silly and I'm sick of seeing people constantly bringing it up. It's worse than the endings we got. I'll take "choose your color to screw over the galaxy with" over "lol the last part didn't happen you were really indoctrinated" any day.


Why do you think it's worse?  Personally, I think it's brilliant.  A masterful twist that (if true) only a few people caught on to originally, with hints that were spread out and only evident to the extremely observant - and you say it's worse?  I mean, sure it could have been a little more obvious, but if it's true, and we *DO* end up getting other endings that line up with what we were promised/lied-to-about...  why would you think it's bad?


I posted a thread about this already, but basically, it invalidates 2 of the endings where you fall victim to indoctrination, and it cheapens the death of Anderson because he didn't really die.

Based on my current understanding of the IT, you would have to pick Destroy to break the indoctrination...otherwise Shep becomes indoctrinated. People who choose those other endings don't want Shep to be indoctrinated; they choose those endings, in some cases, because they are the best for their Shep.

IT really only benefits one group of people: those who believe in Destroy. It screws over the rest, while expanding on all of the endings and hopefully adding new ones benefits everyone.

Modifié par GBGriffin, 22 mars 2012 - 05:02 .


#63
ShepardTheHopeful

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KaeserZen wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

I'm not going to troll instead I'm going to try and say this as nicely as possible. I strongly disagree with the video and the entire idea of the indoctrination theory. The evidence contradicts with each other, clashes, and makes no sense logically, not to mention it's literally a writers taboo in most cases. The "And then he woke up" ending is a cheap one and one that most people tend to avoid especially towards a giant 3 series trilogy. I just don't feel the indoctrination theory is right and most of the evidence seems like forcing puzzle pieces in where they don't fit.


Thank you for keeping it civil ! I understand why these topics stir up deep emotions within everyone, and we all appreciate the effort ;)

I'm interested when you say "The evidence contradicts with each other", so far I've seen pretty solid arguments pro-indoctrination, but perhaps they were presented in a convenient way that went around the inconsistencies. Can you elaborate please ?


Yeah i'm trying lol. But i'd be glad to elaborate on my theories to counteract anyone I've heard. Do you have one that's particuarly strong of an argument for you towards indoctrination? I wouldn't mind seeing if I have a logical standpoint against it. 

#64
KaeserZen

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ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Everyone keeps talking about the secret ending that you can only get with destroy the reapers option....did anyone think it was just simple enough because it's the only option that doesn't require him to sacrifice his body? It couldn't just be that simple? Man gets killed, destroyed beyond repair, rebuilt after a time dead that shouldn't be possible to revive. No one questions that? But Shepard lands in London and suddenly "INDOCTRINATION!" sorry it doesn't fit I have a much more viable reason as to why Indoctrination wouldn't work. Saren talks about synthesis but Shepard already achieved synthesis even the little brat AI says it. He's part man part machine he works with nanobots and implants directly in his brain. Indoctrination works through rewriting the neurological patterns of the brain through differing waves of radio, etc. So no one can assume instead of the reapers indoctrinating him maybe his achievement to synthesis evolution through Cerberus couldn't have blocked the indoctrination? Maybe it was attempted or tried as shown with the Illusive Man but that his implants stopped it.


Thanks for taking the time to write down your points ! I have a few counter arguments to them.

First, synthesis isn't about implanting people with cybernetics, it is about creating a new DNA form that makes both life synthetic and organic at the same time. It isn't the case with Shepard, so I don't think we can say he has acheived Synthesis.

Second, one can argue whether the rubble in the "Shepard lives" cutscene is indeed in London, but one cannot argue that it clearly isn't the Citadel. Besides, if "Destroy" was chosen and the endings were true, Shepard would have been on the Citadel by the time it exploded. So, this is not the Citadel. And if he fell to Earth from it and survived... well, no, he can't have, really.

#65
Drake-Shepard

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Indoc theory makes sense, it must be on purpose. IT MUST BE. ending is coming. BW are good writers, last 2 games were amazing.

But after 10 days of random cryptic messages I am beginning to lose hope. I think this is the same thing that shepard went through...

I am losing hope...having vivid dreams...pretty soon these dreams will have oil shadows in them. random roar of the reapers. I am losing hope.

#66
JasonSovereign

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''writing gods'' DA2 looks at you and laughs

#67
GBGriffin

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Drake-Shepard wrote...

Indoc theory makes sense, it must be on purpose. IT MUST BE. ending is coming. BW are good writers, last 2 games were amazing.

But after 10 days of random cryptic messages I am beginning to lose hope. I think this is the same thing that shepard went through...

I am losing hope...having vivid dreams...pretty soon these dreams will have oil shadows in them. random roar of the reapers. I am losing hope.


MUST IT BE!?

Seriously, why can't you accept that if they fix the plotholes, then there's no reason for it to exist. Is it THAT difficult to accept?

#68
Dezdecaydance

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If u arent for the indoctrination theory then u are clearly indoctrinated.

#69
KaeserZen

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Zhuinden wrote...
If the indoctrination theory is correct, then the game doesn't actually end.
That seems wrong for 60$.


Perhaps they didn't want anyone to have the ending of this marvelous franchise spoiled, and kept the true ending under total wraps for a later release ?

#70
Drake-Shepard

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GBGriffin wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

Indoc theory makes sense, it must be on purpose. IT MUST BE. ending is coming. BW are good writers, last 2 games were amazing.

But after 10 days of random cryptic messages I am beginning to lose hope. I think this is the same thing that shepard went through...

I am losing hope...having vivid dreams...pretty soon these dreams will have oil shadows in them. random roar of the reapers. I am losing hope.


MUST IT BE!?

Seriously, why can't you accept that if they fix the plotholes, then there's no reason for it to exist. Is it THAT difficult to accept?


its my way of saying what i hope. It is feasible if it isn't.
I am hoping BW is sooo good that it is. 
I should of added /dramatic
http://i1.kym-cdn.co...271/119/207.jpg 

If BW actually meant 'a new type of DNA'. synthetics have DNA?? How did i not realise how absurb that is. I won't be able to pick up a bw title again. I don't know how you can patch up the DNA plothole.

#71
defenestrated

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The indoctrination theory is great and I hope they implement it but at this point, I can't imagine they planned it. It's just luck that there's an alternate interpretation of the ending that makes sense. Early on, Bioware made a few comments along the lines of "keep your saves!" and "if you knew what was coming..." but once the backlash proper took off, that stopped and any additional content on the endings was framed as something to address feedback rather than the intended extension of the narrative.

#72
Tinmachine

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OP, you left out how all those endings were part of the original games and you did not have to buy them as DLC.

You left out how Bioware probably thought "Heck, time´s running up, let´s do a grisly ending full of death and ominous doom and an outlandish deity and try to sell it as a great, creative, masterful "twist", quick!"

In the games you mentioned, everything fell into place near the end. In this one, everything fell apart. It´s just messed up. Believe it.

#73
Taleroth

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There's little I hate more than indoctrination theory. Bioware are not writing gods. They never were. They've written one good plot, and a bunch of good characters. This is not a character we're talking about here.

Besides, the logic of destroy defying the Reapers is simply absurd. Defiance would be the hidden option that we don't get. It would be the option the Starkid never bothers to mention. It would be Shepard throwing himself off the Citadel or finding a hidden panel and pulling out the wires. It would be doing nothing at all just to delay for time, but that only gets you a game over. It would be standing up to the Starkid and saying "no, shove those Reapers up your Citadel, the galaxy deserves better than you or the Crucible. Synthetics deserve better, too." It would be actually rejecting them.

You're not defying them by choosing red. You're just setting the train down the same tracks to the same crappy ending as the rest of us. Which is the exact problem Dragon Age 2 had.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 mars 2012 - 05:12 .


#74
GBGriffin

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Drake-Shepard wrote...



its my way of saying what i hope. It is feasible if it isn't.
I am hoping BW is sooo good that it is. 
I should of added /dramatic
http://i1.kym-cdn.co...271/119/207.jpg 

If BW actually meant 'a new type of DNA'. synthetics have DNA?? How did i not realise how absurb that is. I won't be able to pick up a bw title again. I don't know how you can patch up the DNA plothole.


The current endings need fixing. I am supporting that entirely. I just don't believe that the IT is the perfect fix, not the way some people currently imagine it being implemented.

If they actually make sense of things, and hopefully add just *one* option for a brighter ending (hell, one option for a worse ending to hit both sides of the spectrum), I'd be happy. But to force players to accept even more than they may be willing to accept already seems a bit...much.

Just end the game. End the game, fix the endings, and give people a reason to play campaign DLC. If people like the current endings, let them pick one, and if they don't, let them pick other valid options that won't include content the former will miss out on.

#75
Guest_Sparatus_*

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KaeserZen wrote...

Perhaps they didn't want anyone to have the ending of this marvelous franchise spoiled, and kept the true ending under total wraps for a later release ?


That's stupid. And if it's true, which it probably isn't, then they deserve the backlash they are getting.