Aller au contenu

Photo

BioWare are writing gods and plot-twist masters : Indoctrination theory is right


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
358 réponses à ce sujet

#151
The Divine Avenger

The Divine Avenger
  • Members
  • 494 messages

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Psychology of Learning 101: the human mind is so constructed that it insists on imposing order on chaos. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that humans will find order, even when it can be verified that no such order exists.

It is one of the reasons why memory and eye-witness testimony are inherently unreliable; people try to find patterns and relationships between discordant events, actually changing their memories to fit their new construct (see "Brain Games" for more detail).

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal."

Hence, while I would like the endings to make sense, and find the IT theory interesting, my better judgment keeps telling me that someone simply screwed up, badly. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetance...


If this is true then we know who it was that screwed up

www.gameranx.com/updates/id/5695/article/mass-effect-3-writer-allegedly-slams-controversial-ending/

#152
GBGriffin

GBGriffin
  • Members
  • 2 259 messages

Tovanus wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

ahhaha.. morinth crossed my mind too! That was choice at its finest


I've also seen a video of an outcome for ME 2's ending where Shepherd dies (along with everyone else) and only Joker survives. And it's a real ending, giving the cutscenes and showing the giant Reaper fleed headed into the galaxy. 

Just don't see why indoctrination giving, "Shepherd dies or fails" possibilities would be a controversial lack of choice. Honestly, as I approached the end of the game, I wasn't even expecting a big choice in the end. When I thought of choice mattering, I thought that just meant that the ending would take into account all the choices you made from ME 1 to ME 3. Another choice if it works with the plot will be fun still, but I really hope everything just makes sense.


If Shep dies, you can;t even import to ME3, and honestly, you actually have to work to make that happen. I think you have to actually go out of your way beyond just ignoring everything to make that actually happen.

The choice would only be controversial because many (the IT backers) consider that Shep can only wake up in one ending, and therefore, that would be the only choice that would advance the plot. If people want to see the additional content, they'd have to pick that option, whether or not they believe it's right.

If there is only one choice that leads to more content, why even make it a choice?

#153
GBGriffin

GBGriffin
  • Members
  • 2 259 messages

The Divine Avenger wrote...


If this is true then we know who it was that screwed up

www.gameranx.com/updates/id/5695/article/mass-effect-3-writer-allegedly-slams-controversial-ending/


That's fake, unless you're truly paranoid and think BioWare is just covering it up.

"alledgedly", first and foremost, should tip you off that there isn't much credibility to it

#154
Tovanus

Tovanus
  • Members
  • 470 messages

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Psychology of Learning 101: the human mind is so constructed that it insists on imposing order on chaos. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that humans will find order, even when it can be verified that no such order exists.

It is one of the reasons why memory and eye-witness testimony are inherently unreliable; people try to find patterns and relationships between discordant events, actually changing their memories to fit their new construct (see "Brain Games" for more detail).

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal."

Hence, while I would like the endings to make sense, and find the IT theory interesting, my better judgment keeps telling me that someone simply screwed up, badly. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetance...


Yeah, I think of it as being the result of soooo many plotholes and thematic inconsistincies being stuck into the game, the only ending that could make sense was one that rendered the ending into an illusion. It's not because they intended it, it's just because they failed so hard with plotholes. 

Bioware should just run with it! It's like someone picking the same lottery numbers ouf a sense of tradition every week. The one week, they mess up and accidentally buy the wrong numbers. Then those numbers happen to win the prize. Do they just avoid picking up the prize out of loyalty to their tradition, that those weren't "their" numbers? No! Get your prize Bioware! You didn't intend those numbers, but damn it, you got lucky. Take advantage of the luck.

#155
ShepardTheHopeful

ShepardTheHopeful
  • Members
  • 593 messages
It's just a feasible as the indoctrination theory. EA is the real reapers ::drum roll::

#156
Renessa

Renessa
  • Members
  • 313 messages
[quote]ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

[quote]Renessa wrote...

[quote]GBGriffin wrote...

[quote]Renessa wrote...

I don't believe anymore that they are writing gods, but if they have two brain cells left between them, they should take the indoctrination theory and run with it, whether it was planned or not.[/quote]

[/quote]

If they have two brain cells left between them (and i'm sure they have many more than that) they should scrap any indication that the indoctrination theory is correct. I'm nowhere near convinced enough to accept it as the norm or universally accepted theory. It's not the best theory, heck I don't even think it's a good theory (personal opinion), But one thing I can say for sure is it's certainly the loudest theory.

[/quote]


Well, I am certainly not hell bent on indoctrination, but for me the problem is, that the ending itself made no sense. (Normandy landing on this Eden like planet, the companions who were right beside my Shep on the run towards the beam being on the Normandy etc.)

How do you want to explain this? Hey,- it was just a dream!

Everything else would mean serious re-writing of the endings and I don't think Bioware is going to do this. If they use the indoctrination theory they just would have to add content, not completely change the whole last bit.

#157
Drake-Shepard

Drake-Shepard
  • Members
  • 1 086 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

Tovanus wrote...


Yup, typo. Fixing it. Meant Synthesis and Control were the bad choices. 

Also, if I were totally honest about my renegade Shepherd's fate, he made a choice that led to his death long ago, ending his tragic story. But, what was I supposed to do? Morinth was pretty sexy and she was coming on to Shepherd. How do you say no to that? I assume he died a happy Shepherd.



...I think I've argued about this with you before. I specifically remember someone mentioning Morinth.

Morinth and this are not the same choice, not on the same degree. Morinth is an optional ending for Shep based on a choice earlier on in the game...a choice that lets the player keep playing regardless. You get Samara or you get Morinth....and, once you beat the game, you can romance Morinth and die.

The thing is, choosing to romance Morinth isn't required to advance the plot, not in the way any DLC relating to IT would. IT basically needs DLC to make it work, and you would be forced to choose the one option that, as of now, would make it work.

Morinth had no impact on the ending of ME2; it was just a stupid thing for Shep to do. IT is, in the minds of many, the only way to advance the plot of ME3...I'd say that's a big difference.


what if...(assume there an indoc sub-ending) ... there was not a starchild choice....but a starchild cutscene and in that cutscene your shepard just picked destroy? 
Then your choice would not be 'funneled'...and then when the game eventually ended...you had your 16 different ending's based on your me1-me3 choices.

What i am trying to say is the 1 correct choice in the potential indoc ending is not a bad thing. It just adds an interactive element to a cutscene. Involves you more.

I see the point you are making, but in the event the indoc theory is correct, the starchild is not a choice on that magnitude. Because actual choice and consequence that can shape your ending has already happened and is still yet to happen. 

#158
Ghost of a Messiah

Ghost of a Messiah
  • Members
  • 199 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Psychology of Learning 101: the human mind is so constructed that it insists on imposing order on chaos. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that humans will find order, even when it can be verified that no such order exists.

It is one of the reasons why memory and eye-witness testimony are inherently unreliable; people try to find patterns and relationships between discordant events, actually changing their memories to fit their new construct (see "Brain Games" for more detail).

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal."

Hence, while I would like the endings to make sense, and find the IT theory interesting, my better judgment keeps telling me that someone simply screwed up, badly. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetance...


As a psych major (even though I'm returning to school for computer science), I love you for this. 


Funny how everyone seems to major in something that supports their arguments... Oh was I being skeptical of a skeptic? I'm sorry.

#159
GBGriffin

GBGriffin
  • Members
  • 2 259 messages

Renessa wrote...



Everything else would mean serious re-writing of the endings and I don't think Bioware is going to do this. If they use the indoctrination theory they just would have to add content, not completely change the whole last bit.


Actually, no. If Dr. Ray is to be believed, then all they'll do is just expand on what they have. It would be (presumably) easier than generating fresh new content; they just have to expand on what they have.

Also, even though I want to leave this argument alone because people, again, are clearly intent on believing in the IT and nothing else: what version of the IT works for you? There are multiple variations of it beyond just "Shepard was indoctrinated".

#160
CaptainBlackGold

CaptainBlackGold
  • Members
  • 475 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Psychology of Learning 101: the human mind is so constructed that it insists on imposing order on chaos. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that humans will find order, even when it can be verified that no such order exists.

It is one of the reasons why memory and eye-witness testimony are inherently unreliable; people try to find patterns and relationships between discordant events, actually changing their memories to fit their new construct (see "Brain Games" for more detail).

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal."

Hence, while I would like the endings to make sense, and find the IT theory interesting, my better judgment keeps telling me that someone simply screwed up, badly. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetance...


As a psych major (even though I'm returning to school for computer science), I love you for this. 


Thanks: we Psych majors have to stick together - since with that kind of degree we won't be finding much work apart from those requiring us to ask, "Do you want fries with that?"

However, keeping this ME3 related... aw, I got nothing

#161
GBGriffin

GBGriffin
  • Members
  • 2 259 messages

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Psychology of Learning 101: the human mind is so constructed that it insists on imposing order on chaos. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that humans will find order, even when it can be verified that no such order exists.

It is one of the reasons why memory and eye-witness testimony are inherently unreliable; people try to find patterns and relationships between discordant events, actually changing their memories to fit their new construct (see "Brain Games" for more detail).

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal."

Hence, while I would like the endings to make sense, and find the IT theory interesting, my better judgment keeps telling me that someone simply screwed up, badly. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetance...


As a psych major (even though I'm returning to school for computer science), I love you for this. 


Funny how everyone seems to major in something that supports their arguments... Oh was I being skeptical of a skeptic? I'm sorry.


Hahaha, what the hell? Are you suggesting I'm pretending to be a psych major to further my point?

Paranoid much?

#162
Tovanus

Tovanus
  • Members
  • 470 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

Tovanus wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

ahhaha.. morinth crossed my mind too! That was choice at its finest


I've also seen a video of an outcome for ME 2's ending where Shepherd dies (along with everyone else) and only Joker survives. And it's a real ending, giving the cutscenes and showing the giant Reaper fleed headed into the galaxy. 

Just don't see why indoctrination giving, "Shepherd dies or fails" possibilities would be a controversial lack of choice. Honestly, as I approached the end of the game, I wasn't even expecting a big choice in the end. When I thought of choice mattering, I thought that just meant that the ending would take into account all the choices you made from ME 1 to ME 3. Another choice if it works with the plot will be fun still, but I really hope everything just makes sense.


If Shep dies, you can;t even import to ME3, and honestly, you actually have to work to make that happen. I think you have to actually go out of your way beyond just ignoring everything to make that actually happen.

The choice would only be controversial because many (the IT backers) consider that Shep can only wake up in one ending, and therefore, that would be the only choice that would advance the plot. If people want to see the additional content, they'd have to pick that option, whether or not they believe it's right.

If there is only one choice that leads to more content, why even make it a choice?



Because it just works better with the plot, and I just don't think many people would complain about a test of Shepherd's principles being in the game that you can fail. I mean, when it comes to character consistency, it's just too easy to justify why destroy is the only thing paragon or renegade Shep would choose. 

Besides, the game can be very forgiving with autosaves that take you right before the decision. 



Don't get me wrong though, I don't think indoctrination is the only way Bioware can fix this. I just don't see how they salvage the content currently in the ending without indoctrination. The only other way I can see them fixing the ending is a flat-out retcon that just overwrites what people go through. Otherwise, I just think we'll get a poor addition that leaves in tons of plotholes. I just don't see how the Starchild can ever be redeemed into a good plot device without rendering him illusory.

#163
Ghost of a Messiah

Ghost of a Messiah
  • Members
  • 199 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Psychology of Learning 101: the human mind is so constructed that it insists on imposing order on chaos. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that humans will find order, even when it can be verified that no such order exists.

It is one of the reasons why memory and eye-witness testimony are inherently unreliable; people try to find patterns and relationships between discordant events, actually changing their memories to fit their new construct (see "Brain Games" for more detail).

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal."

Hence, while I would like the endings to make sense, and find the IT theory interesting, my better judgment keeps telling me that someone simply screwed up, badly. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetance...


As a psych major (even though I'm returning to school for computer science), I love you for this. 


Funny how everyone seems to major in something that supports their arguments... Oh was I being skeptical of a skeptic? I'm sorry.


Hahaha, what the hell? Are you suggesting I'm pretending to be a psych major to further my point?

Paranoid much?


I said I was sorry...

#164
The Divine Avenger

The Divine Avenger
  • Members
  • 494 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

The Divine Avenger wrote...


If this is true then we know who it was that screwed up

www.gameranx.com/updates/id/5695/article/mass-effect-3-writer-allegedly-slams-controversial-ending/


That's fake, unless you're truly paranoid and think BioWare is just covering it up.

"alledgedly", first and foremost, should tip you off that there isn't much credibility to it


No I'm not paranoid, I personally am not willing to say it's true or faulse, if it's true then it would like I said just now give us the names of the people that screwed up. If it's faulse then it's no skin off my nose, either way I don't really care I just find it an interesting read.

As long as the ending get's fixed & we gat the choices they promised us I don't give a sh** who screwed up as long as it doesn't stay that way.

Modifié par The Divine Avenger, 22 mars 2012 - 06:38 .


#165
samb

samb
  • Members
  • 1 641 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

I posted a thread about this already, but basically, it invalidates 2 of the endings where you fall victim to indoctrination, and it cheapens the death of Anderson because he didn't really die.

Based on my current understanding of the IT, you would have to pick Destroy to break the indoctrination...otherwise Shep becomes indoctrinated. People who choose those other endings don't want Shep to be indoctrinated; they choose those endings, in some cases, because they are the best for their Shep.

IT really only benefits one group of people: those who believe in Destroy. It screws over the rest, while expanding on all of the endings and hopefully adding new ones benefits everyone.

This.
I absolutely hate the Indoctrination theory.  Hate it.  The greatest thing about the series is that there is no "wrong" choice.  Your choices always result with you either being the hero or getting the job done.  IT implies that there is only one choice: destroy.   If only one choice was right then IT makes for an even more limited role of free will.  Something that was complained about of the original ending.

No, what is more consistent with the series is that all choices are "right" or inconsequential.  Look at all the major choices you had to make and ask yourself how many could have resulted in a truly bad consequence?  Give the Collector base to TIM only resulted in a change in icon for a war asset.  Saving the Council didn't help you getting help for Earth.  Punching the reporter didn't get you assault charges or even a restraining order. 

Let's also be honest here, "all a just dream" is the most cliched trope out there.  It reeeks of poor writing and wasted time.  "Sooooo none of that really happened?  What a waste of time.

Did it ever occur to anyone of the possibility that Bioware never had the IT in mind?  That they liked their current idea for an ending and the IT is basically you wishing it never happened?  The message you send is that you want to nullify the presented material completely.  Did you just assume Bioware saw things your way?

I liked the original ending but felt it didn't go far enough.  It didn't tie up all the loose ends, or show the consequences of my actions.  How could we have differentiated the endings to illustrate this?

1) Red/Destroy: Reapers destroyed, soldiers are buried, Reaper body parts become basis for new tech all over the galaxy, eventually leading to rebuilding of the mass relays but with acutal understanding of the science behind it.
2) Blue/Control: Shepp becomes the god of the Reapers, watches the races he saved from afar and uses sutble indoctrination to maintain galactic peace between organics and synthetic.  He also uses his vast brainwashing powers to prod technology along, eventually leading to rebuilding of the mass relays but with acutal understanding of the science behind it. 
3) Green/Synthesis: Shepp's DNA is in everyone, hence making the galaxy better by default.  This new evolution lets people transmit , intergrate and process information at extraordinary speeds.  Galaxy makes great strides in science, eventually leading to rebuilding of the mass relays but with acutal understanding of the science behind it. 

All of them lead to same evenuality (concistent with ME's MO) but get there differently.  BW has been using the "false choice" in all ME games so far, but they do it so well we accept that illusion.

#166
GBGriffin

GBGriffin
  • Members
  • 2 259 messages

Drake-Shepard wrote...

what if...(assume there an indoc sub-ending) ... there was not a starchild choice....but a starchild cutscene and in that cutscene your shepard just picked destroy? 
Then your choice would not be 'funneled'...and then when the game eventually ended...you had your 16 different ending's based on your me1-me3 choices.

What i am trying to say is the 1 correct choice in the potential indoc ending is not a bad thing. It just adds an interactive element to a cutscene. Involves you more.

I see the point you are making, but in the event the indoc theory is correct, the starchild is not a choice on that magnitude. Because actual choice and consequence that can shape your ending has already happened and is still yet to happen. 


That's the thing....if they didn't even dress it up as a choice, and just made Shep default choose destroy...I still think people would be upset about not being able to choose, but they wouldn't be guilted into it vs picking a clear game over :P If the goal is to make only one choice branch out into 16 areas, then don't make it a choice...make every player experience it to get those 16 endings, not punish them for picking the "wrong" choice.

#167
KaeserZen

KaeserZen
  • Members
  • 877 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

If there is only one choice that leads to more content, why even make it a choice?


Well, if Shepard acts all Ghandi, doesn't go to cover and just stands there without shooting, he is likely to get shot to oblivion.

Yet, that doesn't matter to people as a lack of choice :P

#168
Ghost of a Messiah

Ghost of a Messiah
  • Members
  • 199 messages
I don't understand how every time I find a "Pro Indoctrination Theory" thread, all the same people come in and try to debunk the theory... Why do that? Trolls perhaps?

#169
Blarghonk

Blarghonk
  • Members
  • 170 messages
Even if it is true, then that means we didn't get the full game. Not as bad, but still pritty bad that we have to wait to play the ending, since it has already been released.

#170
Tovanus

Tovanus
  • Members
  • 470 messages

GBGriffin wrote...

If Shep dies, you can;t even import to ME3, and honestly, you actually have to work to make that happen. I think you have to actually go out of your way beyond just ignoring everything to make that actually happen.

The choice would only be controversial because many (the IT backers) consider that Shep can only wake up in one ending, and therefore, that would be the only choice that would advance the plot. If people want to see the additional content, they'd have to pick that option, whether or not they believe it's right.

If there is only one choice that leads to more content, why even make it a choice?


I don't see how that nullifies anything. You can end ME 2 with Shepherd dying. To do it, you probably have to ignore content that's in the game (like loyalty missions), but it can be the story you tell. Morinth is mostly a joke, but the notion of a "you die" ending is not a problem. 

But like I said, I'm only thinking of indoctrination as the only way to salvage the ending scenes with Starchild and still have a satisfying conclusion not full of poor writing and plotholes. If they ret-con the whole thing, that works too.

#171
GBGriffin

GBGriffin
  • Members
  • 2 259 messages

Tovanus wrote...


Because it just works better with the plot, and I just don't think many people would complain about a test of Shepherd's principles being in the game that you can fail. I mean, when it comes to character consistency, it's just too easy to justify why destroy is the only thing paragon or renegade Shep would choose. 

Besides, the game can be very forgiving with autosaves that take you right before the decision. 



Don't get me wrong though, I don't think indoctrination is the only way Bioware can fix this. I just don't see how they salvage the content currently in the ending without indoctrination. The only other way I can see them fixing the ending is a flat-out retcon that just overwrites what people go through. Otherwise, I just think we'll get a poor addition that leaves in tons of plotholes. I just don't see how the Starchild can ever be redeemed into a good plot device without rendering him illusory.


Because there is failing a test and still getting content as a result vs failing a test and getting a game over.

It's easy...for you. Other people have argued their points about Control and Synthesis, and who are we to say they are wrong for choosing what they think is right for their Shep (again, assuming it's the player's story...which I think we're all fighting for)

They can salvage the current ending by getting rid of the plotholes that caused the IT to exist in the first place. That is how the IT was even broguth up. People thought "This doesn't make sense; let's look for something that does!"...but if BioWare makes the endings make sense (somehow), then the IT theory doesn't need to exist.

#172
Tiax Rules All

Tiax Rules All
  • Members
  • 2 938 messages
I still believe OP

#173
KaeserZen

KaeserZen
  • Members
  • 877 messages

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

I don't understand how every time I find a "Pro Indoctrination Theory" thread, all the same people come in and try to debunk the theory... Why do that? Trolls perhaps?


As the OP, I highly value constructive debate. I think it's good to have feedback from both end to strengthen each point and come to a better outcome.

Some are just troll, but I feel most of the opponents are pretty mature and genuinely contribute to the debate.

#174
GBGriffin

GBGriffin
  • Members
  • 2 259 messages

Tovanus wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

If Shep dies, you can;t even import to ME3, and honestly, you actually have to work to make that happen. I think you have to actually go out of your way beyond just ignoring everything to make that actually happen.

The choice would only be controversial because many (the IT backers) consider that Shep can only wake up in one ending, and therefore, that would be the only choice that would advance the plot. If people want to see the additional content, they'd have to pick that option, whether or not they believe it's right.

If there is only one choice that leads to more content, why even make it a choice?


I don't see how that nullifies anything. You can end ME 2 with Shepherd dying. To do it, you probably have to ignore content that's in the game (like loyalty missions), but it can be the story you tell. Morinth is mostly a joke, but the notion of a "you die" ending is not a problem. 

But like I said, I'm only thinking of indoctrination as the only way to salvage the ending scenes with Starchild and still have a satisfying conclusion not full of poor writing and plotholes. If they ret-con the whole thing, that works too.


You can end ME2 with Shep dying and not be able to import into 3. That's the problem with it.

Your story would end in ME2, so why even buy ME3 then if you want Shep's story to end in 2?

#175
recentio

recentio
  • Members
  • 912 messages

The Divine Avenger wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Psychology of Learning 101: the human mind is so constructed that it insists on imposing order on chaos. Research has repeatedly demonstrated that humans will find order, even when it can be verified that no such order exists.

It is one of the reasons why memory and eye-witness testimony are inherently unreliable; people try to find patterns and relationships between discordant events, actually changing their memories to fit their new construct (see "Brain Games" for more detail).

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal."

Hence, while I would like the endings to make sense, and find the IT theory interesting, my better judgment keeps telling me that someone simply screwed up, badly. Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetance...


If this is true then we know who it was that screwed up

www.gameranx.com/updates/id/5695/article/mass-effect-3-writer-allegedly-slams-controversial-ending/


Bingo. This is the real conspiracy behind the scenes.

Indoc is a lie.