228 réponses à ce sujet

[HKR148]

Sevrun wrote...

Father Alvito wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Trigger control.

How does this address the fact that the crosshair covers a half-inch box whether you hold the trigger down or not under Marksman?

A.) shoot from cover if you simply must spray and pray
B.) fire in bursts for far better effect than simply spraying whether in cover or on the move.

These two simple rules take the Revenant from almost useless lightshow to a killing machine even without the AP/Extended Barrel which I unfortunately do not have at this time.  I swear by this weapon, live by this weapon, and often forget I have a secondary while using this weapon, because I know how to use it effectively at any range with those two rules.

tempted to make them my new Sig.

Considering what you've said, Phaeston is really a weird weapon. It doesn't do that much damage but with the stability mod and the stability+ you get from racial bonus the thing barely has any recoil at all w/ all that rapid fire-rate. Still just doesn't do enough damage though.

[Sevrun]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

swjobson wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Phaeston is a terrible gun on gold, it's the worst of the worst.

You don't even have to camp ammo boxes with the paladin, you just have to know their locations....

rofl pistols are noob weapons, and yeah if you run back to a box every thirty seconds you migjt as well pitch a tent.

my engineer uses decoy/drain powers, hardly the kind of stuff that gets big kills. most of my damage comes from the assault rifle and i rank 2nd place in most gold games. again, 2nd place using non-lethal powers. u trolling, you can't lie to me about this

Glad I'm not the only one here who's not just a fanboy of the Carnifex.  I don't mind buttin heads with em, but it gets kinda old when they start to get pissy and just naturally assuming they're superior with no proof to back it up

There's plenty of proof the Raw dps numbers are greatly in favor of slow fire weapons. Add in the fact that rapid fire weapons are absolute trash against armor and have less accuracy and more weight then that should be all the proof you need.

You're using blanket statements to support your favored position.  These statements are not accurate in their entirety, as I can solo Brutes on silver and gold with some of those rapid fire 'trash' weapons with little difficulty.  My team often fails to realize there IS a brute on the flank I protect until it's dead.

[Sevrun]

HKR148 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Father Alvito wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Trigger control.

How does this address the fact that the crosshair covers a half-inch box whether you hold the trigger down or not under Marksman?

A.) shoot from cover if you simply must spray and pray
B.) fire in bursts for far better effect than simply spraying whether in cover or on the move.

These two simple rules take the Revenant from almost useless lightshow to a killing machine even without the AP/Extended Barrel which I unfortunately do not have at this time.  I swear by this weapon, live by this weapon, and often forget I have a secondary while using this weapon, because I know how to use it effectively at any range with those two rules.

tempted to make them my new Sig.

Considering what you've said, Phaeston is really a weird weapon. It doesn't do that much damage but with the stability mod and the stability+ you get from racial bonus the thing barely has any recoil at all w/ all that rapid fire-rate. Still just doesn't do enough damage though.

then Aim for the face.  I get decent results out of the Phaeston when I pick it up, but honestly if I'm going to use an MG, I pick up the Revenant.  It's my sweetheart.  I named her Elise.  We're going steady

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Sevrun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

swjobson wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Phaeston is a terrible gun on gold, it's the worst of the worst.

You don't even have to camp ammo boxes with the paladin, you just have to know their locations....

rofl pistols are noob weapons, and yeah if you run back to a box every thirty seconds you migjt as well pitch a tent.

my engineer uses decoy/drain powers, hardly the kind of stuff that gets big kills. most of my damage comes from the assault rifle and i rank 2nd place in most gold games. again, 2nd place using non-lethal powers. u trolling, you can't lie to me about this

Glad I'm not the only one here who's not just a fanboy of the Carnifex.  I don't mind buttin heads with em, but it gets kinda old when they start to get pissy and just naturally assuming they're superior with no proof to back it up

There's plenty of proof the Raw dps numbers are greatly in favor of slow fire weapons. Add in the fact that rapid fire weapons are absolute trash against armor and have less accuracy and more weight then that should be all the proof you need.

You're using blanket statements to support your favored position.  These statements are not accurate in their entirety, as I can solo Brutes on silver and gold with some of those rapid fire 'trash' weapons with little difficulty.  My team often fails to realize there IS a brute on the flank I protect until it's dead.

You're using the arguement that because trash weapons can still kill things they are equal to the top tier weapons.

you could solo brutes faster on silver and gold with a paladin/carnifex and be able to use Carnage/incinerate due to their low weight. It's fine that you like ARs i'm not saying you should stop using them, i'm saying they're just not as good as Slow fire weapons. 

[HKR148]

Sevrun wrote...

HKR148 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Father Alvito wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Trigger control.

How does this address the fact that the crosshair covers a half-inch box whether you hold the trigger down or not under Marksman?

A.) shoot from cover if you simply must spray and pray
B.) fire in bursts for far better effect than simply spraying whether in cover or on the move.

These two simple rules take the Revenant from almost useless lightshow to a killing machine even without the AP/Extended Barrel which I unfortunately do not have at this time.  I swear by this weapon, live by this weapon, and often forget I have a secondary while using this weapon, because I know how to use it effectively at any range with those two rules.

tempted to make them my new Sig.

Considering what you've said, Phaeston is really a weird weapon. It doesn't do that much damage but with the stability mod and the stability+ you get from racial bonus the thing barely has any recoil at all w/ all that rapid fire-rate. Still just doesn't do enough damage though.

then Aim for the face.  I get decent results out of the Phaeston when I pick it up, but honestly if I'm going to use an MG, I pick up the Revenant.  It's my sweetheart.  I named her Elise.  We're going steady

I usually spray it on the face, much easier after spending so much time on using Javelin, still doesn't do enough damage regardless. I've came to a decision that it's alot better to run around with Phaeston/Mantis setup as a Turian Soldier.

[squidney2k1]

Jarrett Lee wrote...

I've primarily been either a sniper or shotgun user since game launched, but last night I took a Turian Soldier, maxxed Marksman, with a high level modded Revenant. Using Marksman (and even not using it) I'm pretty sure I was tearing enemies apart with it. My only complaint was the turian himself, not being able to roll or sidestep quickly etc meant I took a lot of hits, and the hits I did take seemed to hurt a ton.  This was on Silver.

Key: high-level Revenant.

[Father Alvito]

Sevrun wrote...

A.) shoot from cover if you simply must spray and pray
B.) fire in bursts for far better effect than simply spraying whether in cover or on the move.

This does not address this:

Father Alvito wrote...

How does this address the fact that the crosshair covers a half-inch box whether you hold the trigger down or not under Marksman?

because the crosshairs is STILL massive if you do both of the things you suggest.  This makes headshotting impossible at anything beyond close quarters.  For contrast, you can literally sit up in the tower on Dagger and snipe things with a Hornet under Marksman.  It isn't the most efficient way to do things with that gun, but it takes less than half the firing time to get a kill at twice the distance.

squidney2k1 wrote...

Key: high-level Revenant.

The test in question was using a Revenant V on Bronze, which should be roughly equivalent to a high level Revenant on Silver.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 22 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Sevrun]

Father Alvito wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

A.) shoot from cover if you simply must spray and pray
B.) fire in bursts for far better effect than simply spraying whether in cover or on the move.

This does not address this:

Father Alvito wrote...

How does this address the fact that the crosshair covers a half-inch box whether you hold the trigger down or not under Marksman?

because the crosshairs is STILL massive if you do both of the things you suggest.  This makes headshotting impossible at anything beyond close quarters.  For contrast, you can literally sit up in the tower on Dagger and snipe things with a Hornet under Marksman.  It isn't the most efficient way to do things with that gun, but it takes less than half the firing time to get a kill at twice the distance.

the outside of my crosshairs with a Krogan in cover are perhaps 1/4" on a 60" TV and that's the outer most edge when the firing zone is on the inside of the crosshairs.  the only time I get the crosshairs to the size you suggest if when I'm moving and shooting at the same time, something the weapon is not designed for.  I can snipe just fine with my Revenant II from the hub/tower in Dagger as well with controlled bursts.  I tend to upset snipers when I do this as I first stagger then kill targets I'm firing at... for some reason they seem to need to shoot at softened targets even with Widows, but whatever.

As for why it doesn't work that way for you, I have to assume it's something in how you use it as it's unlikely mine has a greater accuracy than any other in the game.

Modifié par Sevrun, 22 mars 2012 - 07:28 .

[Father Alvito]

Sevrun wrote...

the outside of my crosshairs with a Krogan in cover are perhaps 1/4" on a 60" TV and that's the outer most edge when the firing zone is on the inside of the crosshairs...

As for why it doesn't work that way for you, I have to assume it's something in how you use it as it's unlikely mine has a greater accuracy than any other in the game.

Well, since I'm using a Turian and you're using a Krogan, there might be some undocumented difference between the two races that explains the variance.  I'll have to try it the next time I'm bored with Gold runs and find out.

[Sevrun]

Father Alvito wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

the outside of my crosshairs with a Krogan in cover are perhaps 1/4" on a 60" TV and that's the outer most edge when the firing zone is on the inside of the crosshairs...

As for why it doesn't work that way for you, I have to assume it's something in how you use it as it's unlikely mine has a greater accuracy than any other in the game.

Well, since I'm using a Turian and you're using a Krogan, there might be some undocumented difference between the two races that explains the variance.  I'll have to try it the next time I'm bored with Gold runs and find out.

I'll fire up my Turian tonight, though it should be MORE accurate, not less.  've gotta run in about half an hour, not enough time to find and play a match.  Not if I want a shower... and I REALLY want a shower.

[Sabresandiego]

This game is dominated by slow firing, accurate weapons like sniper rifles, heavy pistols, and some shotguns. High fire rate weapon tend to be awful, particularly those that are fully automatic. For some reason the balance designers figured that automatic weapons need to be terrible since you can spray on them, but what they neglected was the fact that sustained fire weapons leave you exposed to return fire.

There is only one class that can effectively use full automatics on gold, and that is the turian soldier. Every other class is better off with a slow firing and accurate weapon. Burst weapons kill faster, and are safer to use. The game designers would need to literally double the damage of automatic weapons to make them worth using over burst weapons. Ofcourse if they did this, they would need to alter the turian soldier so that he wasnt overpowered.

Basically, 1 class in the entire game is effective with automatic sustained fire weapons, every other class is better off firing with a hard hitting slow firing accurate gun.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 22 mars 2012 - 07:41 .

[Sevrun]

Sabresandiego wrote...

This game is dominated by slow firing, accurate weapons like sniper rifles, heavy pistols, and some shotguns. High fire rate weapon tend to be awful, particularly those that are fully automatic. For some reason the balance designers figured that automatic weapons need to be terrible for one reason or another.

There is only one class that can effectively use full automatics on gold, and that is the turian soldier. Every other class is better off with a slow firing and accurate weapon. That is very poor weapon balance.

Your statement that only the Turian can use automatic weapons effectively is flawed as I have explained... 3 times in this thread so far I think.

[Father Alvito]

Sevrun wrote...

I'll fire up my Turian tonight, though it should be MORE accurate, not less.

That's exactly what I would expect, but your experience was very much not my experience.  Hence the supposition of an undocumented 'feature' as the explanation.

I'm not where I can play at the moment, so testing will have to wait until later.

[Sabresandiego]

Sevrun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

This game is dominated by slow firing, accurate weapons like sniper rifles, heavy pistols, and some shotguns. High fire rate weapon tend to be awful, particularly those that are fully automatic. For some reason the balance designers figured that automatic weapons need to be terrible for one reason or another.

There is only one class that can effectively use full automatics on gold, and that is the turian soldier. Every other class is better off with a slow firing and accurate weapon. That is very poor weapon balance.

Your statement that only the Turian can use automatic weapons effectively is flawed as I have explained... 3 times in this thread so far I think.

Any class can use an automatic weapon, for example an avenger x, with some degree of success. However that class would perform better had it used a slow firing accurate weapon. Give me one example where this isnt true?

[Jarmatos]

Assault rifles are only good on one (two if you like Me3 adrenaline rush) classes is the problem. In gold they seem to do nothing, powers make them obsolete. Should be rewarded more for having to come out of cover for a bit.

That falcon nerf hurt too, at least the revenant got a slight buff.

[Gilric]

I know it's not like the rest, but the mattock is a beast! Also the full autos are only useless of you're not the right class. If you max marksman and use a scope you can stream bullets into an enemy's head.

[Sabresandiego]

Sevrun, do you know about the concept of comparisons? Or opportunity cost? Just because you can succeed with an automatic weapon on gold, doesnt make them good. With some classes you could succeed with no weapon at all on gold. You have to compare autos to other weapons to see real balance. When you compare a widow and a revenant, a claymore and a geth pulse rifle, or a carnifex and a phaeston, you will realize how big of a joke automatic weapons are in this game. They are not even decent, they are awful.

[Sacramentum]

Rifles are great. I use the Rev on my human soilder, all the time. Actually, I use them all, except the Falcon, frequently on various classes. ARs are the most versatile guns, and are great on all classes.

[Sabresandiego]

Let me think for a second, whats better? A gun that lets me fire an accurate huge damage shot, then perform another activity like taking cover, rolling, firing a power, etc...? Or one where I have to hold down the trigger while the enemy shoots back at me?

Logically whats the more sound choice?

[Father Alvito]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Let me think for a second, whats better? A gun that lets me fire an accurate huge damage shot, then perform another activity like taking cover, rolling, firing a power, etc...? Or one where I have to hold down the trigger while the enemy shoots back at me?

Logically whats the more sound choice?

It isn't quite that simple, though.  The real question is how long you have to emerge from cover to make a given target drop.  A high damage gun like the Hornet will outperform both the Widow and Carnifex in close quarters against shielded enemies.  The Carnifex user takes longer to headshot the target out, and the Widow user either needs two shots or more recharge time on the shield rip.

The big prospective advantage of a rapid fire weapon is that you're never wasting overage damage against a pip or two of shields.

The reason the Salarian Infiltrator is so powerful is that it breaks this calculus against most enemies.  It can both rip shields and apply a high damage shot to mop up without breaking Cloak.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 22 mars 2012 - 07:57 .

[KestrelM1]

I don't understand all the Assault Rifle hate. I absolutely love the Avenger on my Turian Sentinel. With tech Armor I don't mind popping out of cover to empty an entire clip.

I think they're useful if you handle them properly.

[Bon3zz1001]

KestrelM1 wrote...

I don't understand all the Assault Rifle hate. I absolutely love the Avenger on my Turian Sentinel. With tech Armor I don't mind popping out of cover to empty an entire clip.

I think they're useful if you handle them properly.

Because Shotguns, Sniper Rifles and Heavy Pistols do the same job better and faster? There's no reason to use an AR or an SMG in this game unless you want to bring your team down.

[Sevrun]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Sevrun, do you know about the concept of comparisons? Or opportunity cost? Just because you can succeed with an automatic weapon on gold, doesnt make them good. With some classes you could succeed with no weapon at all on gold. You have to compare autos to other weapons to see real balance. When you compare a widow and a revenant, a claymore and a geth pulse rifle, or a carnifex and a phaeston, you will realize how big of a joke automatic weapons are in this game. They are not even decent, they are awful.

You're comparing weapons with radically difference design goals and complete diametric opposites, first of all.  Secondly, I can use a Revenant to rival someone with a Widow and frequently DO.

You are also trying to push me into the position of saying they are the greatest weapons available, which I have _never_ said, and will not.

I have the Saber, Mattock, both Widows, the Phaeston, GPS, and Revenant.  Of the lot I play best with the Revenant, though I also do well with the Saber when I choose to use it.  I swap between most of those on a regular basis, so yes, I have compared their overall effectiveness in my playstyle.  The Automatic weapons are not the problem, they shouldn't be as effective as a Widow against heavy armor given that is not what they were designed to combat.  The problem is the expectation that any weapon should be capable of every job.

The GPR does just fine against shielded/Health units in my experience.  Would I take it into Gold?  No, it is not a weapon I personally trust.  Same goes for the Phaeston and BOTH Widows.  Why the widows? because they're not as useful to me in close quarters.  My Revenant can kill effectively at any range, I've invited people to see me do this on several occasions.  None of you have accepted my offer.

Oh, I also own the Claymore, it has it's own flaws that I find unacceptable, but others enjoy it, so I don't ****.

[Blackest_Knight]

KestrelM1 wrote...

I don't understand all the Assault Rifle hate. I absolutely love the Avenger on my Turian Sentinel. With tech Armor I don't mind popping out of cover to empty an entire clip.

I think they're useful if you handle them properly.

It's not hate for the Assault Rifle, its a desire for them to function better. Sure you CAN empty an entire clip and take an enemy down/half-down (depending on wep, difficulty, enemy, etc) but that takes MUCH longer than 1 Skill + 1 Shot, a strategy that is effective on any class.

The only real benefit to an Assault Rifle is high Mobile dps, which has its own inherent problems.

[Sevrun]

Bon3zz1001 wrote...

KestrelM1 wrote...

I don't understand all the Assault Rifle hate. I absolutely love the Avenger on my Turian Sentinel. With tech Armor I don't mind popping out of cover to empty an entire clip.

I think they're useful if you handle them properly.

Because Shotguns, Sniper Rifles and Heavy Pistols do the same job better and faster? There's no reason to use an AR or an SMG in this game unless you want to bring your team down.

Then you've never played with me.  Decent match will put me near the top with 55-65K score (often enough to be the top)  And that's with an Engi using the Avenger X or a Krogan soldier using the Revenant I.  I actually do less well with the weapons you describe as being the only viable weapons available. without bringing my team down with snide arrogance, but thank you for your input.