228 réponses à ce sujet

[TexasToast712]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

My argument hasn't changed in the slightest.  My stance has ever been this:  That the ARs are just fine for what they are designed to be, and that when _used properly_ are just fine.

Yes AR are fine but they are not on par with slow fire weapons. 
 There's a difference between viable and optimal. ARs are viable but not optimal in any situation. 

Neither is your Carnifex, but you make it work.  I have steadfastly maintained that I can work my Revenant in any situation, not that it is perfect in all of them.  I can do this with shotguns or sniper rifles as well, ARs are my preferred weapon however as the tradeoffs are the least egregious for me.

And no, I don't want them buffed... as if that happens it's likely they'll get nerfed later and may end up _worse_ than when they started.  I'm a little concerned that they buffed my Revenant, tbh for just that reason.  I cringe when they start playing with any reasonable weapon.  I thought they may have gone overboard with the Falcon til I saw it in use.  Not so much afterward.

The falcon was the only optimal AR, it still may be optimal in very rare situations
The carnifex is near Optimal far closer than any AR could claim. although I don't use it i use the true Optimal HP the paladin. 

The Paladin is far from optimal. Low ammo, heavy recoil without a scope. Low mag count. All the Paladin is is a slightly stronger Carnifex and they both have their downsides. They usually just ****** off the meatier enemies.

[TexasToast712]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

The carnifex would beat the rev against the banshee due to the better accuracy and quicker reload. Atlas i'm not sure.
But the if you want to down shields on the big guys thats what snipers are for. Let's see what would tear through shields barriers faster a mantis or a Rev....
And although Armor isn't completley immune to ARs in ME3 it's much more resistant to the point where it might as well be. And you can only do headshot damage against certain enemies unlike in ME2 where everything had a head. And even with headshots the HPs/Snipers will still outpreform the ARs. 

A revenant would beat the Carnifex in the shield/barrier bust contest against Atlas/Banshee.

If it could then it's not by much. And a sniper could still beat the Rev at taking down any large enemy. 

Snipers are designed for hard/heavy/dangerous targets so I'm not seeing the problem there.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Sevrun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

The carnifex would beat the rev against the banshee due to the better accuracy and quicker reload. Atlas i'm not sure.
But the if you want to down shields on the big guys thats what snipers are for. Let's see what would tear through shields barriers faster a mantis or a Rev....
And although Armor isn't completley immune to ARs in ME3 it's much more resistant to the point where it might as well be. And you can only do headshot damage against certain enemies unlike in ME2 where everything had a head. And even with headshots the HPs/Snipers will still outpreform the ARs. 

In relation to the second, the Vindicator can counter the advantage you'd expect from the basic headshots of HPs/Snipers until you start to account for those players likely taking the buff to headshot damage.

In this area you're starting to get into situations where playstyle skews the numbers... validating my point that playstyle matters.

 

wat.

Are you saying that the vindicator is...I don't even know. 

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

The carnifex would beat the rev against the banshee due to the better accuracy and quicker reload. Atlas i'm not sure.
But the if you want to down shields on the big guys thats what snipers are for. Let's see what would tear through shields barriers faster a mantis or a Rev....
And although Armor isn't completley immune to ARs in ME3 it's much more resistant to the point where it might as well be. And you can only do headshot damage against certain enemies unlike in ME2 where everything had a head. And even with headshots the HPs/Snipers will still outpreform the ARs. 

A revenant would beat the Carnifex in the shield/barrier bust contest against Atlas/Banshee.

If it could then it's not by much. And a sniper could still beat the Rev at taking down any large enemy. 

Snipers are designed for hard/heavy/dangerous targets so I'm not seeing the problem there.

Snipers can also take out Basic targets better. The Problem is that the ARs do not have any one optimal use and are actually the least viable use in many situations and are thus UP

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

My argument hasn't changed in the slightest.  My stance has ever been this:  That the ARs are just fine for what they are designed to be, and that when _used properly_ are just fine.

Yes AR are fine but they are not on par with slow fire weapons. 
 There's a difference between viable and optimal. ARs are viable but not optimal in any situation. 

Neither is your Carnifex, but you make it work.  I have steadfastly maintained that I can work my Revenant in any situation, not that it is perfect in all of them.  I can do this with shotguns or sniper rifles as well, ARs are my preferred weapon however as the tradeoffs are the least egregious for me.

And no, I don't want them buffed... as if that happens it's likely they'll get nerfed later and may end up _worse_ than when they started.  I'm a little concerned that they buffed my Revenant, tbh for just that reason.  I cringe when they start playing with any reasonable weapon.  I thought they may have gone overboard with the Falcon til I saw it in use.  Not so much afterward.

The falcon was the only optimal AR, it still may be optimal in very rare situations
The carnifex is near Optimal far closer than any AR could claim. although I don't use it i use the true Optimal HP the paladin. 

The Paladin is far from optimal. Low ammo, heavy recoil without a scope. Low mag count. All the Paladin is is a slightly stronger Carnifex and they both have their downsides. They usually just ****** off the meatier enemies.

The paladin dosen't have heavy recoil..............And low Ammo is not a factor into dps. You carry ammo replenishers and as long as you know the locations of ammo boxes you should be fine. 
The low mag size is also irrelevant due to the fast reload time. Low mag size isn't a problem if your reloads are among the fastest in the game. 

[TexasToast712]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

The carnifex would beat the rev against the banshee due to the better accuracy and quicker reload. Atlas i'm not sure.
But the if you want to down shields on the big guys thats what snipers are for. Let's see what would tear through shields barriers faster a mantis or a Rev....
And although Armor isn't completley immune to ARs in ME3 it's much more resistant to the point where it might as well be. And you can only do headshot damage against certain enemies unlike in ME2 where everything had a head. And even with headshots the HPs/Snipers will still outpreform the ARs. 

A revenant would beat the Carnifex in the shield/barrier bust contest against Atlas/Banshee.

If it could then it's not by much. And a sniper could still beat the Rev at taking down any large enemy. 

Snipers are designed for hard/heavy/dangerous targets so I'm not seeing the problem there.

Snipers can also take out Basic targets better. The Problem is that the ARs do not have any one optimal use and are actually the least viable use in many situations and are thus UP

Of course a sniper can take out a basic target. Sniper's/Semi autos require more effort, however, and are rewarding accordingly for good use. Same goes for AR's but you will never be popping and dropping like a sniper because that is not what AR's are designed for. 

[TexasToast712]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

My argument hasn't changed in the slightest.  My stance has ever been this:  That the ARs are just fine for what they are designed to be, and that when _used properly_ are just fine.

Yes AR are fine but they are not on par with slow fire weapons. 
 There's a difference between viable and optimal. ARs are viable but not optimal in any situation. 

Neither is your Carnifex, but you make it work.  I have steadfastly maintained that I can work my Revenant in any situation, not that it is perfect in all of them.  I can do this with shotguns or sniper rifles as well, ARs are my preferred weapon however as the tradeoffs are the least egregious for me.

And no, I don't want them buffed... as if that happens it's likely they'll get nerfed later and may end up _worse_ than when they started.  I'm a little concerned that they buffed my Revenant, tbh for just that reason.  I cringe when they start playing with any reasonable weapon.  I thought they may have gone overboard with the Falcon til I saw it in use.  Not so much afterward.

The falcon was the only optimal AR, it still may be optimal in very rare situations
The carnifex is near Optimal far closer than any AR could claim. although I don't use it i use the true Optimal HP the paladin. 

The Paladin is far from optimal. Low ammo, heavy recoil without a scope. Low mag count. All the Paladin is is a slightly stronger Carnifex and they both have their downsides. They usually just ****** off the meatier enemies.

The paladin dosen't have heavy recoil..............And low Ammo is not a factor into dps. You carry ammo replenishers and as long as you know the locations of ammo boxes you should be fine. 
The low mag size is also irrelevant due to the fast reload time. Low mag size isn't a problem if your reloads are among the fastest in the game. 

i should have rephrased that. It has HUGE bloom without a scope, and yes, you may not like it, but mag size, ammo count, fire rate, and reload speed are all valid factors. You won't always be near a ammo box or have the ability to run to one.

[Sevrun]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

The carnifex would beat the rev against the banshee due to the better accuracy and quicker reload. Atlas i'm not sure.
But the if you want to down shields on the big guys thats what snipers are for. Let's see what would tear through shields barriers faster a mantis or a Rev....
And although Armor isn't completley immune to ARs in ME3 it's much more resistant to the point where it might as well be. And you can only do headshot damage against certain enemies unlike in ME2 where everything had a head. And even with headshots the HPs/Snipers will still outpreform the ARs. 

In relation to the second, the Vindicator can counter the advantage you'd expect from the basic headshots of HPs/Snipers until you start to account for those players likely taking the buff to headshot damage.

In this area you're starting to get into situations where playstyle skews the numbers... validating my point that playstyle matters.

 

wat.

Are you saying that the vindicator is...I don't even know. 

I was saying that the Vindicator is an ideal burst fire weapon for tearing the heads off of things, has been able to match pace with HPs and snipers in most situations until you begin to account for some skill tree choices that may bolster headshot damage.

I can put three bursts into someone's face with the Vindicator before a Widow gets a second shot.  Either kills basic targets, and does substanal damage to others outside the heavies.

[Trix-Rabbit]

Jarrett Lee wrote...

I've primarily been either a sniper or shotgun user since game launched, but last night I took a Turian Soldier, maxxed Marksman, with a high level modded Revenant. Using Marksman (and even not using it) I'm pretty sure I was tearing enemies apart with it. My only complaint was the turian himself, not being able to roll or sidestep quickly etc meant I took a lot of hits, and the hits I did take seemed to hurt a ton.  This was on Silver.

Jarret, for anyone with aim the revanant is not very useful, it simply doesnt have the aim necc to complete gold unless you are being carried.  

With my Carnifex 1(i dont have paladin yet)  I can take down 6 enemies before i finish one with an avenger 10 on silver.  On bronze? Lol i just run around on my adept headshotting everything without even some combat skill to increase gun damage and using throw to push away enemies that get to close. killing 6 enemies with one clip(yeah that 6 bullets in a clip too)  without even iron sighting(i actually find the gun less acc whilst iron sighting, using dmg/armor pen mods)

Hell if i ever get a Carnifex X or a High level paladin it will like replace my mantis X on my sniper since even the widow is underwhealming(i have a widow 4). Thats assuming i dont get a black widow.

[RD25]

Elecbender wrote...

Mattock, Vindicator, Saber, and Revenant (with Turian Soldier) are fine. They're usable on Gold.

Upgraded carnifex takes it 4 me overly every other gun easily...  I'm a level 5 carnifex and even on gold 3 shot kills.  Beast weapon

[Sevrun]

RD25 wrote...

Elecbender wrote...

Mattock, Vindicator, Saber, and Revenant (with Turian Soldier) are fine. They're usable on Gold.

Upgraded carnifex takes it 4 me overly every other gun easily...  I'm a level 5 carnifex and even on gold 3 shot kills.  Beast weapon

glad it works for ya, My Rev II works wonders for me, even without a Turian.

[RazRei]

Level VI Carnifex and its got a lesser dmg output compared to the Paladin 1.

HOWEVER the six in the chamber and about 36 that I carry into the match makes it the better gun overall.

As far as the REAL discussion about AR's not being useful in MP, I have to agree. Its kind of odd and said that a weapon that's supposed to be good for medium~long range with good damage output overall being outclassed by pistols in this game is sad.

At least their saving grace is that its better than the SMG's in this game.

[Sevrun]

RazRei wrote...

Level VI Carnifex and its got a lesser dmg output compared to the Paladin 1.

HOWEVER the six in the chamber and about 36 that I carry into the match makes it the better gun overall.

As far as the REAL discussion about AR's not being useful in MP, I have to agree. Its kind of odd and said that a weapon that's supposed to be good for medium~long range with good damage output overall being outclassed by pistols in this game is sad.

At least their saving grace is that its better than the SMG's in this game.

we've gone round and round on that for six pages, with a variety of points in the mix.

Normally I'd be pugnacious enough to start in with ya from the top rebutting, but I've ota 'friend' trying to blacklist me in my chosen profession, and a day that has just drug on _forever_

So instead of arguing further, I'm simply going to go play with my ARs that function JUST fine and leave everyone to try convincing Bioware to buff them now, and butcher them later.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Know what? I'll bite.

TexasToast, you've said all thread that the sole purpose of ARs is to strip shields (which is flagrantly in opposition with what all text in-game says about them, but for the purposes of this I'll humor you, since the Geth Rifle and Avenger were specifically anti-shield/barrier in ME2, though literally every other rifle was just fine against armor).

For the sake of this argument, we'll ignore that most classes have some way to breach shields/barriers and that ammo powers can do the same. For the sake of this argument, I'll take things at face value, and we'll lock squarely onto your argument on what an AR's role is.

Based on that very suggestion, the AR remains uncompelling. The argument that ARs are good at stripping shields based purely on data in a vaccuum (which is not a great argument, but whatever) does have basis in fact, since the Avenger and GPR can take down a shield nicely....

....The problem is that taking down shields is not the sole domain of these two guns alone. In practice, and in every lab test I've seen done of it, a heavy pistol does the job better and more efficiently with less time spent exposed as part of the bargain. The Predator, Phalanx, Arc Pistol, and Eagle all have infinitely better damage which is prorated against shields when you target the head - just like every other weapon. Putting it differently, sustainability through clip size and autofire are the only advantages these weapons have - and in both cases, the fact that the other pistols knock out shields quicker and more efficiently completely eclipses that very drawback! If we go for damage outside of shielding, then the Pistols are run-away favorites, handily beating out the rifles in this equation.

The main draw of the Avenger for this purpose - its light weight - is eclipsed by the fact that the Predator does the job more efficiently and is lighter as well. The only thing they don't have is sustainability, which is valuable to a pure caster, but is laughable as an advantage since the simple application of upgrades can render a pistol even more efficient due to ammo powers being multiplicative, and thus being applied more effectively on weapons with higher damage than those with high fire rates.

[CHAw]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

TexasToast, you've said all thread that the sole purpose of ARs is to strip shields (which is flagrantly in opposition with what all text in-game says about them, but for the purposes of this I'll humor you, since the Geth Rifle and Avenger were specifically anti-shield/barrier in ME2, though literally every other rifle was just fine against armor).

Actually, it was only the Geth Pulse Rifle. Every other assault rifle in ME2 had equal or better damage against armor than against shields/barriers.

And even the GPR had a bonus against armor.

[Trix-Rabbit]

There is no way to say AR's are good, at all. They simply aren't theres already loads of data to support this. The Falcon(while classified as an AR, technicly isnt) is the quintsential Engineer weapon. Until they nerfed the hell out of it at least.And really the only thing worse than a AR is an SMG.

At this point the only two weapons id Consider even still somewhat viable are the M-37 Falcon(even after the nerf, but they gotta fix the missing rounds and that delay) and the mattock X

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Actually, it was only the Geth Pulse Rifle. Every other assault rifle in ME2 had equal or better damage against armor than against shields/barriers.

And even the GPR had a bonus against armor.

This is true, though I figured I'd gloss it for the purposes of keeping the argument succinct.

[FortunePaw]

So how about just buff every AR's dmg? The problem with pistol out perform AR is that some of the pistols' dmg is just too high. What's the point of using AR to shoot a guy with 10 rounds minimum to kill it, when a pistol can drop it in 3~4 round max? If every AR has more dmg, at least they can be on pair with pistol's bullet-to-kill ratio.

[Father Alvito]

Father Alvito wrote...

Well, since I'm using a Turian and you're using a Krogan, there might be some undocumented difference between the two races that explains the variance.  I'll have to try it the next time I'm bored with Gold runs and find out.

Returning to this discussion about Revenant from earlier in the thread:

- There is no undocumented difference.  The crosshairs is over 1/4 inch across, and it jumps to over 1/2 the second you fire it without Marksman.  If you slow down the rate of fire to that of a Carnifex, you can keep it at 1/4 inch.  Which is sort of insane.
- As with the Hornet, scoping it is a really, really terrible idea.
- Adding Marksman in solves the 'trigger control' issue that Sevran suggested and of course dramatically increases the rate of fire.  This took me from getting half of the score of the guy with the Carnifex to being able to carry Bronze.
- You cannot 'snipe' with this gun under any conditions.  If the map permits forcing CQC (eg: downstairs White), you can reliably headshot with it.  But only then.  You can kill things at mid range, but it takes a lot of bullets.  Long range = LOL.
- If you put a maxed out piercing and damage mod on the gun, it does acceptable damage to armor in Bronze under Marksman.  But only then.

The general result confirms the general community consensus - it works on a Turian Soldier, and doesn't anywhere else.  But if you look at the utility you have to surrender to get Marksman (shield rip, rolls, Cloak/Decoy/biotics/etc.) and the downtime on Marksman, the build cannot be called optimal.  Worse, the Hornet dominates it with a damage upgrade and a clip upgrade.  It deals comparable damage at all ranges under Marksman, or you can take it on a Turian Sentinel and get 200% recharge and Overload plus comparable short-range damage since fire rate is a non-issue.

I'm still not seeing it, and if a true believer wants to change my mind it's going to take video evidence.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 23 mars 2012 - 03:25 .

[JaimasOfRaxis]

THE TL;DR Scoreboard: Assault Rifles that aren't the Mattock, as a general rule, are underpowered and difficult to utilize. The Revenant is solely usable on a Turian Soldier, and is still underpowered. The Falcon shoots blanks and is now underpowered. Mathematics and tactical doctrine shows that many rifles go well beyond ridiculously bad power/size ratio. The Geth Pulse Rifle is a particularly bad offender. The Collector Rifle needs to be flagged as a rare that you can get from packs after getting access to it (as well as being stronger in general).

The general gist is that the Assault Rifle class needs to be carefully upgraded and brought in line with other guns. In that same vein, so do the Incisor and SMGs (Hornet aside).

[Bobrzy]

Revenant with stability mod and bigger clip is the most pleasant weapon in the history of computer gaming. The sound, the looks, the recoil, the feeling you get when you chew through the entire enemy squad on one magazine...

[CHAw]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

Actually, it was only the Geth Pulse Rifle. Every other assault rifle in ME2 had equal or better damage against armor than against shields/barriers.

And even the GPR had a bonus against armor.

This is true, though I figured I'd gloss it for the purposes of keeping the argument succinct.

Fair enough, but for the purposes of this thread as a whole, I think that it's worth emphasizing that assault rifles as ME2 envisioned them are meant to be the general purpose workhorse - highly effective for any situation.

Modifié par CHAw, 23 mars 2012 - 03:38 .

[Trix-Rabbit]

Bobrzy wrote...

Revenant with stability mod and bigger clip is the most pleasant weapon in the history of computer gaming. The sound, the looks, the recoil, the feeling you get when you chew through the entire enemy squad on one magazine...

Video? Show what level you are playing?  I just loaded up a bronze with a level 10 Krogan soldier and pull all my points into the Krogan Racial tree and Fortification. I had less than 5 melees and i had 60+k point with a carnifex 1 with a lvl 5 dmg mod and a lvl 1 armor piercing mod vs geth.

On my team i had a lvl 17 and 18 vanguards and a lvl 15 Asari adept.  all of them wound up with less than 30k because they couldnt even make it to enemies in time.  On a side note, i was lagging my ass off.  This is on pc ofc

[RazRei]

FortunePaw wrote...

So how about just buff every AR's dmg? The problem with pistol out perform AR is that some of the pistols' dmg is just too high. What's the point of using AR to shoot a guy with 10 rounds minimum to kill it, when a pistol can drop it in 3~4 round max? If every AR has more dmg, at least they can be on pair with pistol's bullet-to-kill ratio.

But that’s how BioWare is justifying it, or that’s how BioWare is looking at it from IMO 

IMO I think BW is looking at it like:

- Pistol X can carry a max of 5 rounds in the chamber
- Rifle R can carry 30 rounds in the chamber.

+ Pistol X can take down Target G with 3 Rounds
+ Rifle R can take down Target G with 6 Rounds

But that NEVER happens percentage wise in this game.  Even if the Pistol has a lower firerate it just blows my mind that in the future the AR would be a weaker weapon overall to use on the battlefield than a standard issue sidearm like the Pistol.

Modifié par RazRei, 23 mars 2012 - 03:48 .

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Sevrun wrote...

My argument hasn't changed in the slightest.  My stance has ever been this:  That the ARs are just fine for what they are designed to be, and that when _used properly_ are just fine.

Yes AR are fine but they are not on par with slow fire weapons. 
 There's a difference between viable and optimal. ARs are viable but not optimal in any situation. 

Neither is your Carnifex, but you make it work.  I have steadfastly maintained that I can work my Revenant in any situation, not that it is perfect in all of them.  I can do this with shotguns or sniper rifles as well, ARs are my preferred weapon however as the tradeoffs are the least egregious for me.

And no, I don't want them buffed... as if that happens it's likely they'll get nerfed later and may end up _worse_ than when they started.  I'm a little concerned that they buffed my Revenant, tbh for just that reason.  I cringe when they start playing with any reasonable weapon.  I thought they may have gone overboard with the Falcon til I saw it in use.  Not so much afterward.

The falcon was the only optimal AR, it still may be optimal in very rare situations
The carnifex is near Optimal far closer than any AR could claim. although I don't use it i use the true Optimal HP the paladin. 

The Paladin is far from optimal. Low ammo, heavy recoil without a scope. Low mag count. All the Paladin is is a slightly stronger Carnifex and they both have their downsides. They usually just ****** off the meatier enemies.

The paladin dosen't have heavy recoil..............And low Ammo is not a factor into dps. You carry ammo replenishers and as long as you know the locations of ammo boxes you should be fine. 
The low mag size is also irrelevant due to the fast reload time. Low mag size isn't a problem if your reloads are among the fastest in the game. 

i should have rephrased that. It has HUGE bloom without a scope, and yes, you may not like it, but mag size, ammo count, fire rate, and reload speed are all valid factors. You won't always be near a ammo box or have the ability to run to one.

Mag size has little to no effect on sustained dps if your reload time is low. It's a factor but such a minimal one that it can't be considered a weakness. And there are ammo boxes all over the maps it's hard not to be near one and if you're not you can also pop the ammo consumable. Which people rarley use anyways.