150 réponses à ce sujet

[Thatguyky]

I'm okay with more clarity, and I'm okay with them not altering the current endings. Just add a couple new ones. Maybe one where things turn out better if you have high enough war assets ect, and one where all the **** can hit the fan.

[nssBoB]

yeah exactly what i was expecting, crowd gets offered a hand and it suddenly wants whole arm.
i am all up for clarifying what exactly happened buuuuut majority of you (and i am saying this out loud for the first time) really act like a spoiled brats.

[DeinonSlayer]

nssBoB wrote...

yeah exactly what i was expecting, crowd gets offered a hand and it suddenly wants whole arm.
i am all up for clarifying what exactly happened buuuuut majority of you (and i am saying this out loud for the first time) really act like a spoiled brats.

I think the stock response from the mods to statements like this is "Complaining about complaints is unproductive. End of line."

I haven't seen a transition from "hand" to "whole arm" on the part of Retake. Bioware made a low bid, and we've stood by our original statements. I don't really care what you think of us - DLC is wholly optional, so if you don't want the revisions, whatever those might turn out to be, you're in no way obligated to download them. You stick with what you want, we get what we want, Bioware secures our future business, and you won't have to listen to us anymore. Everyone wins.

[oniradix]

I cannot see how an explanation will fill all the plot holes without rewrites or grasping-at-straws. It will be interesting if they can pull that off. But, I think it will be a quick few lines of text added onto the next pre-ending DLC that they already have in the works. They will look good, not have to change the ending much or spend a lot of $$, will quiet a lot of fans, and sell their next DLC. It’s a win-win for them. I would rather them take their time and do something well done. But, beggars can’t be choosers. We missed out on the ending a lot of us were hoping for (the result of all our decisions from ME1-ME3 mattering in the end with completely different endings), now it will be too $$ for them to make that type of add-on. I just hope whatever they come up with (if they do come up with anything), will be worthy of the ending of a wonderful trilogy.

[DeinonSlayer]

oniradix wrote...

I cannot see how an explanation will fill all the plot holes without rewrites or grasping-at-straws. It will be interesting if they can pull that off. But, I think it will be a quick few lines of text added onto the next pre-ending DLC that they already have in the works. They will look good, not have to change the ending much or spend a lot of $$, will quiet a lot of fans, and sell their next DLC. It’s a win-win for them. I would rather them take their time and do something well done. But, beggars can’t be choosers. We missed out on the ending a lot of us were hoping for (the result of all our decisions from ME1-ME3 mattering in the end with completely different endings), now it will be too $$ for them to make that type of add-on. I just hope whatever they come up with (if they do come up with anything), will be worthy of the ending of a wonderful trilogy.

I really don't think it would be hard, if they don't dogmatically hang on to These Are Your Three Choices. The solution outlined in the proposal linked from my sig would only require a few more lines of dialogue to be recorded and a few more space battle sequences to be rendered, but it would branch into four new divergent outcomes, ranging from costly victory to total defeat by the Reapers. It sounds like a good number of players try to do what this ending calls for naturally, only to find that the game doesn't accomodate them.

[Heather Cline]

I think a DLC with the 16 different endings and also the added content to explain the current endings would go a long way. However just giving explanations is a cop out by Bioware and EA as a whole. They promised 16 different endings and they promised a lot of other things then failed to deliver. Guess what, now they are trying to cover their behinds and I along with others are hot on their tails. Just giving the endings more 'explanation' is not going to cut it. Not this time, no way, no how.

[Richard 060]

Probably already been said in some form or another, but I fail to see how content that offers additional explanations (i.e. DLC epilogues) for the existing endings adequately deals with:

- the fact that the 'Star-Child' sequences undermines the entire war effort, since it ultimately boils down to your final three options, not the various victories and forces assembled throughout the game and the previous two games.

- the inexplicable way that having more war assets changes the intensity of the shockwave in each ending variation. How in hell does a low EMS cause the blast to destroy buildings and friendly troops, while a high EMS means it only affects the Reapers? Doesn't make sense.

- the fact that, by ANY stretch of the imagination, 'synthesis' (as shown in the game) is impossible. Just slapping a TRON-esque texture on to all characters does not merge synthetics and organics into one 'race' - it's hard to imagine 'magic space rays' implanting synthetic parts into organics, and it's just not scientifically possible to just 'graft' DNA into metal/plastic/ceramic/whatever EDI is constructed from. Similarly, whoever wrote the sequence clearly doesn't understand what 'evolution' entails...



So yeah - epilogues alone aren't exactly a 'solution', since what good is it to provide further details ...about things that undermine the choices from the entire trilogy, and that don't make a lick of sense?

[AlanC9]

Richard 060 wrote...
- the inexplicable way that having more war assets changes the intensity of the shockwave in each ending variation. How in hell does a low EMS cause the blast to destroy buildings and friendly troops, while a high EMS means it only affects the Reapers? Doesn't make sense.

Well, some of the EMS points are scientists and tech for the Crucible. These should have been handled as different points scores, of course.

- the fact that, by ANY stretch of the imagination, 'synthesis' (as shown in the game) is impossible. Just slapping a TRON-esque texture on to all characters does not merge synthetics and organics into one 'race' - it's hard to imagine 'magic space rays' implanting synthetic parts into organics, and it's just not scientifically possible to just 'graft' DNA into metal/plastic/ceramic/whatever EDI is constructed from. Similarly, whoever wrote the sequence clearly doesn't understand what 'evolution' entails...

Sure. But asari reproduction is hardly much better than this. 

One of the regulars here  -- Il Divo, IIRC -- said something like it wasn't so much that the endings were particularly bad as that they made us face why ME was always bad.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 mars 2012 - 04:49 .

[Viyu]

Richard 060 wrote...

Probably already been said in some form or another, but I fail to see how content that offers additional explanations (i.e. DLC epilogues) for the existing endings adequately deals with:

- the fact that the 'Star-Child' sequences undermines the entire war effort, since it ultimately boils down to your final three options, not the various victories and forces assembled throughout the game and the previous two games.

- the inexplicable way that having more war assets changes the intensity of the shockwave in each ending variation. How in hell does a low EMS cause the blast to destroy buildings and friendly troops, while a high EMS means it only affects the Reapers? Doesn't make sense.

- the fact that, by ANY stretch of the imagination, 'synthesis' (as shown in the game) is impossible. Just slapping a TRON-esque texture on to all characters does not merge synthetics and organics into one 'race' - it's hard to imagine 'magic space rays' implanting synthetic parts into organics, and it's just not scientifically possible to just 'graft' DNA into metal/plastic/ceramic/whatever EDI is constructed from. Similarly, whoever wrote the sequence clearly doesn't understand what 'evolution' entails...



So yeah - epilogues alone aren't exactly a 'solution', since what good is it to provide further details ...about things that undermine the choices from the entire trilogy, and that don't make a lick of sense?

Bioware needs to put that on a wall and make a mantra of it. I totally agree. I tried addressing this before but, why didn't the starchild pick a random human to make the choice? Why did it have to be shepherd? Sure other humans hadn't gotten to the point Shepherd did, but thie starchild obviously wanted the cycle to end it seemed, so why didn't he use the hoardes of humans he had at his disposal to ummm do it for him? Why wasn't this option available for the reapers to do as earlier as ME2 when the collectors started abducting humans?

Modifié par Viyu, 23 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[DeinonSlayer]

AlanC9 wrote...

- the fact that, by ANY stretch of the imagination, 'synthesis' (as shown in the game) is impossible. Just slapping a TRON-esque texture on to all characters does not merge synthetics and organics into one 'race' - it's hard to imagine 'magic space rays' implanting synthetic parts into organics, and it's just not scientifically possible to just 'graft' DNA into metal/plastic/ceramic/whatever EDI is constructed from. Similarly, whoever wrote the sequence clearly doesn't understand what 'evolution' entails...

Sure. But asari reproduction is hardly much better than this. 

One of the regulars here  -- Il Divo, IIRC -- said something like it wasn't so much that the endings were particularly bad as that they made us face why ME was always bad.

Magic A is Magic A. You can make up any ruleset you want for a fictional universe, and as long as the rules are applied consistently throughout the narrative, the audience is willing to suspend disbelief. Mass effect fields? Sure, why not. Asari reproduction? We've had three games to get used to the idea, and the lady working the souvenir booth seemed very sincere. Introduce green Space Magic to the mix in the last five minutes of a 150+ hour trilogy, though, and people are gonna get pissed.

So, to any aspiring writers out there, please take note: if you're going to make up your own rules, do your audience the courtesy of following them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 23 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[da mighty rEAper]

If its only clarification they wont get any money, unless their plan is to actually clear the things up and not gain additional profit which they could easily make with 2-3 hours of game play including mainstream bossbattle( TIM / HARBINGER / STARTROLL ) +emotinal closure with LI and other important characters. ID GLADLY PAY 20$ FOR THAT I LOVE MASS EFFECT

[The JoeMan]

Honestly, if they are only going to provide clarification than they could save a lot of money by just tweeting it to everyone. I'm kind of expecting something along the lines of more conversation between Shepard and Starchild along the lines of: "so if the mass relays are destroyed won't that destroy all the star systems?" "No, it won't. It's different". "But will the fleets all be stranded on earth?" "No they can still get home because of (fill in the blank)"...etc...etc...etc....
I'm worried.

[Viyu]

I think that the problems with trying to explain the endings according to some of you, is that they don't make sense. I think that trying to explain how the endings would have truthful credibility would probably be unreasonable, rather than a mental figment of Shepherd's imagination.

[Getorex]

If they intend for "something" to be available early in April then I can guarantee you that it will be nothing but an expansion on what we already have. NEW content or endings would likely take longer than just a couple weeks to throw together in order to get a coherent package that doesn't simply introduce MORE holes. Explaining the endings as they are by further exposition simply cannot overcome the inherent illogic. Synthetics to kill organics so their own synthetics wont do it cannot be explained into logic. Worse, the blanket statement by starboy that synthetic will ALWAYS turn on their creators cannot be explained away with more pictures, text, or video. This statement is directly contradicted by the revealed story behind the Geth:Quarian issue (the ORGANICS turned on their creation AND they all can end up holding hands and singing songs together...two results in direct conflict with starboy's words). Then there's EDI who is more interested in romantic interaction with an organic than in 'turning on them'.

They cannot explain away the awfulness of the fate of the Normandy crew on planet Incest either. Elsewhere I've gone into an examination of the direct implications of stargazer's conversation with the kid at the very end...they do not offer an ultimately happy/hopey end. EVERYONE on that planet are brother and sister so the only way for stargazer and the kid to exist is if they are the result of GENERATIONS of incestuous relations. Not happy. Not hopey. Also, the kid and stargazer clearly do not KNOW about alien races, merely talk about the POSSIBILITY of them. Garrus, Tali, and Liara were on the Normandy when it crashed. For stargazer and the kid to not know FOR A FACT that they WILL find these alien races and others in the stars indicates the 3 aliens on the Normandy DIED SOON AFTER THE CRASH and their existence was "lost to history" like the details of Shepard's escapades. Not happy. Not hopey.

Lots of problems that CANNOT be expanded into non-problems. But if we get something the first week of April, that is all they can give us because there's not enough time between then and now to come up with legitimate content. You think the current ending seems rushed and incoherent? Just wait.

[Getorex]

AlanC9 wrote...

Richard 060 wrote...
- the inexplicable way that having more war assets changes the intensity of the shockwave in each ending variation. How in hell does a low EMS cause the blast to destroy buildings and friendly troops, while a high EMS means it only affects the Reapers? Doesn't make sense.

Well, some of the EMS points are scientists and tech for the Crucible. These should have been handled as different points scores, of course.

- the fact that, by ANY stretch of the imagination, 'synthesis' (as shown in the game) is impossible. Just slapping a TRON-esque texture on to all characters does not merge synthetics and organics into one 'race' - it's hard to imagine 'magic space rays' implanting synthetic parts into organics, and it's just not scientifically possible to just 'graft' DNA into metal/plastic/ceramic/whatever EDI is constructed from. Similarly, whoever wrote the sequence clearly doesn't understand what 'evolution' entails...

Sure. But asari reproduction is hardly much better than this. 

One of the regulars here  -- Il Divo, IIRC -- said something like it wasn't so much that the endings were particularly bad as that they made us face why ME was always bad.

I've always steadfastly ignored the whole thing about the impossibility of Asari reproduction (very much like the movie "Cocoon" with the pool scene showing "sex" (of a sort) between and alien and human.  That is just as possible as sex between a cockroach and a chimp.  Or bird.  Or dog.  Or human.  You get the idea.  And those two creatures are actually evolutionarily related...unlike the case with ANY alien lifeform. 

For the game they must ask for, and we must grant, a sufficient amount of suspension of disbelief.  The problem comes when that suspension of disbelief just gets to be too much and self-evidently ridiculous.  You don't even have to think beyond the skim layer on the surface to run into problems with that suspension with the ending as is. 

Note: sorry Tali and Garrus and Liara fans but there is simply NO WAY you would ever REALLY have any possibility of a "love interest" in one of these species.  That is just part of the suspension of disbelief, naturally, but it doesn't take much thought to break the cables holding up that suspension.  

The ending(s) snap the cable supporting the suspension almost immediately, hence their BIG problem.

[Sidney]

Random citizen wrote...

Sorileus wrote...

I'd prefer and ending similar to ME2 where your choices actually had an effect on the outcome of who lived etc etc, ME3 should of been the same way, sure there would be casualties *Its a War!* an I can understand that, but to make our actions/choices from previous games entirely pointless, is lazy to say the least, I was expecting what I had done from ME1 to ME3 to mean something in the end...

As Angry Joe pointed out, I think most of us having a problem with the ending expected a "ME2 suicide mission" but on a galactic scale. Or something similar following the proud tradition of Bioware games.

Not sure about proud tradition.

You've got the single state games: BG, BG2, ME1 where the main quest ends the same way - something is dead. There are smaller quest that turn out differently but in the end you have the main object dead.

You've got the ABC games: KoTOR, JE, ME3, DAO. In all those games you have a final choice to make and that choice is really not based on anything else you do in the game necessarily other than your willingness to role play. I mean there was nothing stopping my light side Jedi from keeping the Star Forge or stopping by open fist warrior from not fighting my master.

ME2 oddly enough stands out because while it has a AB choice there are othereffects in the end game (dead squaddies) but really those dead squadmates can be killed by the fact that your "Readiness meter" was too low because you didn't get loyalty or material for the Normandy.

The presenation layer more than the structure is the problem in ME3,

[Solmanian]

I still don't get it. People still don't understand the difference between "16 different ending" and "16 COMPLETELY different endings"? Have they not played ME2? I know from the get go that I was gonna reach the ending get 2-3 choices, and the results of those choices will slightly diverge based on your previous choices. I don't understand how some people actualy thought it would be something different. In ME2 the ending wether you detroy the base or turn it over is the same except for some dialogues. Not even different colored explosions, but the same. And people were fine with it. So what changed? My problem with ME3 isn't that "it didn't haver enough endings", just that the endings it had didn't make alot of sense.

[DeinonSlayer]

Solmanian wrote...

I still don't get it. People still don't understand the difference between "16 different ending" and "16 COMPLETELY different endings"? Have they not played ME2? I know from the get go that I was gonna reach the ending get 2-3 choices, and the results of those choices will slightly diverge based on your previous choices. I don't understand how some people actualy thought it would be something different. In ME2 the ending wether you detroy the base or turn it over is the same except for some dialogues. Not even different colored explosions, but the same. And people were fine with it. So what changed? My problem with ME3 isn't that "it didn't haver enough endings", just that the endings it had didn't make alot of sense.

The difference is, this is the one game in the series that didn't have to end that way.

[Sidney]

Solmanian wrote...

I still don't get it. People still don't understand the difference between "16 different ending" and "16 COMPLETELY different endings"? Have they not played ME2? I know from the get go that I was gonna reach the ending get 2-3 choices, and the results of those choices will slightly diverge based on your previous choices. I don't understand how some people actualy thought it would be something different. In ME2 the ending wether you detroy the base or turn it over is the same except for some dialogues. Not even different colored explosions, but the same. And people were fine with it. So what changed? My problem with ME3 isn't that "it didn't haver enough endings", just that the endings it had didn't make alot of sense.

Exactly, the structure and appraoch the the endings was fine. The problem was that we never got a decent explaination to the central mystery of the game - who are the reapers and why do they do what they do. I don't care if I get button D to create a universe of unicorns and rainbows because the whole reaper issue amkes no $%^*&*##@@ sense.

[Arkitekt]

I want cherries too. On the double.

BioWare, MAKE ME A SANDWHICH.

[Mokthar]

So...
If they area able to explain all of this points I see no problems

...

What worries me about that document is that on the second point there isn't a number 2
Oh my plotholes inside of plotholes

Modifié par Mokthar, 23 mars 2012 - 03:08 .

[chengthao]

yea unless they're new endings . . . no more BW games for me

[Richard 060]

AlanC9 wrote...

Richard 060 wrote...
- the fact that, by ANY stretch of the imagination, 'synthesis' (as shown in the game) is impossible. Just slapping a TRON-esque texture on to all characters does not merge synthetics and organics into one 'race' - it's hard to imagine 'magic space rays' implanting synthetic parts into organics, and it's just not scientifically possible to just 'graft' DNA into metal/plastic/ceramic/whatever EDI is constructed from. Similarly, whoever wrote the sequence clearly doesn't understand what 'evolution' entails...

Sure. But asari reproduction is hardly much better than this. 

There's a difference - Asari are fictional aliens. Writers can have them reproduce however they want, so long as the pseudo-science behind it sounds vaguely plausible.

DNA, on the other hand, is real science. As are the properties of metals/plastics and other man-made materials. It is completely impossible to impregnate metal with DNA in the manner insinuated by the 'synthesis' ending.


As I've said time and time again:



There's real world scientific fact.


There's fictional 'pseudo-science' where the known rules of science are 'tweaked' as a way of inventing and explaining cool things in science fiction, but in a vaguely plausible-sounding way. It's all part of the 'willing suspension of disbelief'.


...and then there's nonsensical bull***t that no amount of hand-waving and rule-bending can explain. BioWare might as well be upfront about it, and declare the Crucible effect to be 'magic'...

[ArthurBDD]

Viyu wrote...




So apparently it doesn't look like we will get new endings thus far. What are your thoughts on it? I think that it might be possible to achieve new endings AND keep the old ones. How can we make it so that the people who just want the endings clarified get what they want, and the people who want roughly 16 distinct endings get what they were promised too?

I would sincerely hope that the tweet means the following: they're not going to alter anything, so the current endings are going to remain intact for those who are happy with them th eway they are, but they aren't ruling out adding anything, so those of us who do not like the current endings could potentially get new ones. Everyone wins!

[Viyu]

I'm beginning to think indoctrination is the only way to make this work. However... I agree with this point:

There's a difference - Asari are fictional aliens. Writers can have them reproduce however they want, so long as the pseudo-science behind it sounds vaguely plausible.

DNA, on the other hand, is real science. As are the properties of metals/plastics and other man-made materials. It is completely impossible to impregnate metal with DNA in the manner insinuated by the 'synthesis' ending.

I don't know how indoctrination is going to make DNA swapping logical. How do you alter someone's entire genetic makeup in a flash?

Modifié par Viyu, 23 mars 2012 - 11:52 .