68 réponses à ce sujet

[Staggart]

Sorry about the other thread...

The problem for me is the skill progression and after 2-3 plays halfway through the game, the
skills get old despite their  differences they
become bland and linear.  

I strongly feel that a game like
this heavily relies on the mage class to promote replayablity. I
miss the old BG2 spell acquisition, and I wish that concept was
continued to DAO due to It allowing for a unique play through everytime.  Another
unique feature for BG2 was the ability to create 4 characters and have
them all in your party through the multiplayer function.  This allowed
for a completely new playthrough everytime (while loosing character
interaction).

I love DAO and the time I have spent with it, but
I believe that the skill system is a fatal flaw and creates a dead end
scenario in that it permenantly puts future mods and DLC at a
disadvantage.  I believe the tree system should have been an actual
tree, not a path.  In fact, I believe that any system other than 1,2,3,4 linear path would have been as good or better than the one that currently exists. IT is unfortunate since I believe that the game is great in every other category. 

Modifié par Staggart, 30 novembre 2009 - 10:30 .

[Odysseus44]

Those are all legitimate concerns, Staggart, and but no more than your personal preferences.



My personal preferences would be to do away with all class & level based systems, and please no skill trees. In my PnP days, the games I played didn't have those. I played only a limited amount of D&D before discovering CRPGs, and entirely disliked it.



Still, I understand the system, and I'm able to enjoy it. I fell you have to make the best of what you're offered, like with all entertainment.

[soteria]

Maybe. I hate the DnD spell system, so I don't miss it. What hurts replayability for me is how easy the game is on subsequent playthroughs with an intelligently built character.

[phordicus]

i despise scaled encounters and loot. won't be replaying it since i'll be fighting the same stuff only in different places.

[Justin2k]

I can see that I will be bored when I run my third character through the game for the "level 20 mage" achievement.



However, my first playthrough with DLC was 68 hours. My second is approaching 30 hours. This is 98 hours. A third will be as quick as I can make it, before I put the game on the shelf until an expansion.



I will get well over 100 hours of playtime on this game. Then I will stop and probably not play for a while, but still.. completely got my moneys worth even from a single play through in my opinion.

[tanerb]

i am playing now with my rogue, will play another with my mage and i am done

[Jamison77]

The golden nugget of this game is when the player created content starts coming out. Of course it will be a while before really good mods are out there but when they start rolling in, it'll be a whole new experience.

[zippie151]

well hopefully this game will be like BG or Kotor in that after a while it is still highly playable given some time away from it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's a roleplaying game. The replayability comes from the different roleplaying opportunities.

My first two characters were both mages. One was a male human who despised the chantry for keeping mages as slaves, and the other was a female elf who loved the circle for giving her a way to escape poverty and making her life mean something. The game played very differently as those two characters, even though they were the same class.

[Volourn]

This game is highly replayable. Way more replayable than that garbage game known as BG2. The game can change a great deal easily unlike BG2.



The end game changes in so many ways it is ridiculous. The whole different way to make characters in DA i shuge while in BG2 a fighter is a fighter is a fighter. *yawn*



BG2. BG2 Never Changes.



LONG LIVE DA! DEATH TO BG2!

[Haexpane]

Wait BG2 is better than DAO and a true skill tree is better than linear skills that are often useless bridges to the real skill you want?



I am shocked by this new information.

[Treylinn]

I agree with the OP regarding BG2 and DA:O limited replayability due to the skill system and lack of creating an entire party from scratch. The skill tree is an interesting idea (saw one in Diablo II). Not saying I agree that there needs to be a skill tree, but there needs to be more depth to skills and more classes added along with an ability to create an entire party to enhance replayability IMO.

[aberdash]

I completed BG2 several times despite its linearity yet DAO seems to be a little less linear and I couldn't even finish a single playthrough. I think its mostly because the combat is dull and repetitive and classes lack distinction and are just as dull. Needless to say I uninstalled it and wont be recommending it to anyone.

[Dougz_G]

ye i find the spells abit bland, i don't feel the urge to keep playing for them because i could easily just check them out by saving 4 talent points.

i really love the game but i can't seem to get into it anymore, there's nothing to play for =S

[Sferzar]

I don't know about you, but part of it to me is that you can't play your companions in different ways without sacrificing skill points. Oghren will always be deep into the beserek/two handed line, Wynne in the Spirit Healer line, etc.



I mean, as a console player without the luxury of a res-pec mod I gotta say that that's a little constricting when it comes to choosing the roles certain companions do.

[Haexpane]

Sferzar wrote...

I don't know about you, but part of it to me is that you can't play your companions in different ways without sacrificing skill points. Oghren will always be deep into the beserek/two handed line, Wynne in the Spirit Healer line, etc.

I mean, as a console player without the luxury of a res-pec mod I gotta say that that's a little constricting when it comes to choosing the roles certain companions do.

Yeah Alistair would be a perfect 2H Champion/Templar, w/ shield set up he is never that great of a tank IMO not enough DPS

[maladictor2009]

What player content so far all I have seen are tiny mods like helm removal and stuff like that.

The talent/ability system is so bland in this game. And I almost did everything in 1 playthrough.

And the WoW/MMO concept quests is driving me nuts. Get 10 of these. Get 15 of those. That is not singleplayer RPG material at all.

This game was dumped down for consoles and then it was dumped down for kids.

This game does nothing original. Its either stolen from previous bioware games or its some horrible superman cliche. Jesus crist bioware fire your ****ing script writers.

Tell a ****ing story about good overcoming great evil instead of introducing this newage pop culture garbage ripoff of lord of the rings.

Modifié par maladictor2009, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:59 .

[kelsjet]

Staggart wrote...

Sorry about the other thread...

The problem for me is the skill progression and after 2-3 plays halfway through the game, the
skills get old despite their  differences they
become bland and linear.  

This is the part of your position that I have the most trouble with.

If we take a step back, we will see that all class abilities across all RPGs are essentially doing the same thing (in your words, they are 'linear') since they all really are just being used in "dispatching enemies" (or in even more simpler terms "winning this challenge"). Since the beginning of time, RPG classes have been about "killing the enemy". In this sense, they all do the same thing. Even healing and control spells/abilities can be placed in the bucket of "I heal/CC so that my friend can kill more enemies/kill enemies better".
If now you say "I have a problem with this design" or "I don't like the fact that all my abilities help me in some way shape or form in killing enemies" then the problem you have is not with a particular RPG, but RPGs as a genre in general.

Taking this idea further, we will see there really is only a handful of ways someone can "kill the enemy" or "overcome the challenge". Then saying that a particular RPG is "flawed" or "bland" because it, in some way shape or form, explores all these ways (by either spreading these abilities across multiple characters, or by allowing single characters to take on aspects of these abilities) would show that the issue you have is not with the RPG in question, but with RPGs in general.

What all this shows is that the basic premise of your argument is at fault. It also shows us that you cannot really measure the 're-playability' of RPGs by looking at ability sets in a enclosed box. Instead you have to look at them from the perspective of how you can mix n match different ability sets together to gain something more than the sum of its parts. Synergies between sets, so to speak.

In finality, here is the take away I give to you OP.

Firstly, I really do not believe you have played through the game 3 times. Or more specifically, I really do not believe you have played through the game 3 times using different strategies/group compositions. You may have ended up doing the exact same thing in you 3 playthroughs (e.g. picking similar group compositions, similar skill selections, etc). My advice to you on this point is to go back and experience the game in a wildly different way to what you are familiar with. Obviously your "tank and spank" comment shows that you probably always have a tank, or a healer, or a mage. I would suggest, try playing the game with no tank, or maybe try with a full party of rogues, or a full party of rangers, etc. NB. The game can be played successfully with no tank at all.
And secondly, I would advise you look at your original statement. Saying "I played through 3 times" already means that you have spent over 180 hours playing the game. That is 180 hours of entertainment for just ~$50. In Cinema terms, thats akin to watching 90 full length feature films. That is some pretty serious replay value right there.

Food for brainmunch.

[aberdash]

maladictor2009 wrote...

This game was dumped down for consoles and then it was dumped down for kids..

I really don't think it was dumbed down. This is just what Bioware is capable of now.

[kelsjet]

aberdash wrote...
I really don't think it was dumbed down. This is just what Bioware is capable of now.

Congratulations! You win this month's "Most retarded post of the month" award!

Though I guess it makes sense. Looking at your posting history, I think you have proved, without a shadow of a doubt, that you are utterly clueless about pretty much everything. Infact, every single time you have made a post, its contents are nothing more than concentrated bullsh!te.

Thank the forum gods for the user ignore feature. Welcome, you are the first on my list!

[Drig44]

Jamison77 wrote...

The golden nugget of this game is when the player created content starts coming out. Of course it will be a while before really good mods are out there but when they start rolling in, it'll be a whole new experience.

This.

If you played Oblivion for the PC bare, then with mods, you wouldn't believe some of the amazing stuff people did, Deadly reflexes is probably one of the best I've seen in terms of showing what is possible with the time and experience.

[Drag0n-RD]

Volourn wrote...

This game is highly replayable. Way more replayable than that garbage game known as BG2. The game can change a great deal easily unlike BG2.

The end game changes in so many ways it is ridiculous. The whole different way to make characters in DA i shuge while in BG2 a fighter is a fighter is a fighter. *yawn*

BG2. BG2 Never Changes.

LONG LIVE DA! DEATH TO BG2!

I like DA:O more than both Baldur's Gates but they were by no means bad games. I have also replayed BG1 & 2 far more than I will DA:O. 

In DA:O a fighter is a fighter. Using a few different skills that are extremely predictable and uneventful does not make it any different. In fact the simplicity of the BG games were what I loved most. DA:O is not complex with its skill design. In fact the best fighter tree by far and most fun to use is S&S, which is still quite bland.

Also take into account D&D mages. They have far more options and better spell design than anything of DA:Os offerings. The one cool feature to DA:O is shattering & setting grease on fire but id much rather have a choice of more spells than this.  

As stated I like DA:O more I think its a step in the right direction but there is no reason to claim BG2 to be garbage. Because like it or not quite a few old IE game players can't stand to look at DA:O.

Your post was blasphemy 

Modifié par Drag0n-RD, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:36 .

[ITSSEXYTIME]

I can see your point in a sense (there's only one way to get fourth tier spells and that's by getting the same 3 prior spells that you've used 100 times) but the replayability isn't solely limited to combat.



I mean let's face it, you can't play two radically different sword and board warriors: they'll be quite similar. But you can play a 2hander, sword and board, dual wielding or an archer + try out 4 different specializations. With some of the specializations (atleast for Mage/Rogue) you can radically change your playstyle. (Eg Ranger versus an Assassin, or a Arcane Warrior is radically different from a Shapeshifter)



Plus the dialogue branches off in so many different ways and the different origins do change quite a bit in the game world.





I do agree with you about Lockpicking. This extends to Stealth a bit as well but just the way the icons are designed you can tell they were originally skills that were forced onto a Rogue. The Rogue has 16 talents (that are required for the Accomplished Rogue achievement) whilst Mage has 4 and Warrior only has 8. I reckon that originally Stealth/Lockpicking were skills but Bio decided they didn't want Mage's/Warriors picking locks and using Stealth.





imo, they should have made certain skills class locked... or increased the Cunning requirements on "Rogue-like" skills.

[astrallite]

Skill trees are pretty bad, I mean, the only prereq should be stats and levels.

I mean, it's not like you need to know how to jab to throw a cross or a hook, or more advanced fighting techniques.

In real life, fighting style is everything and you pick and choose what skills are conducive to that style--you may be a kyokushin fighter and see something interesting in muay thai or greco roman that you can incorporate in your fighting style; you don't run off suddenly to spend 10 years in a dojo to learn the foundation of some other fighting style just to pick up a few techniques.

Modifié par astrallite, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:42 .

[Elanareon]

Haexpane wrote...

Sferzar wrote...

I don't know about you, but part of it to me is that you can't play your companions in different ways without sacrificing skill points. Oghren will always be deep into the beserek/two handed line, Wynne in the Spirit Healer line, etc.

I mean, as a console player without the luxury of a res-pec mod I gotta say that that's a little constricting when it comes to choosing the roles certain companions do.

Yeah Alistair would be a perfect 2H Champion/Templar, w/ shield set up he is never that great of a tank IMO not enough DPS

Why? One of my playthrough i made Alistair a 2hander without the respec mod. That was Templar/berserker though.