612 réponses à ce sujet

[Thourq]

Thanks, this thread has been very enlightening for me. I have never had rage towards Mass Effect 3 or Bioware. However, I have felt very disappointed in how the ending was done. I didn't feel like there was any closure. All I had, by the end of the game, was just more questions. The Journey and much of Mass Effect 3 is wonderful and great, I loved it and I was truly touched and amazed by the people, locations and every thing that's happened in Mass Effect 3. But at the very end, it just all seemed like that didn't even matter.

[FS3D]

BioWare need to admit they dropped the ball on this one. The quotes provided here in the OP are evidence of their promises and their marketing hype, and especially those that followed the announcement that the game went Gold are, by themselves, evidence of false advertising and false marketing (or in common lexis, outright lies).

I am weary of speaking too plainly for fear of the thread getting locked again, but I do feel that those who pre-ordered the game (as I did) were done a great disservice. I played through from the very first game, and I have almost all of the DLC that was available throughout the series. I didn't get Pinnacle Station as it didn't interest me, and I didn't get From Ashes, because I don't like the practice of cutting out a character and plot-line that forms an important part of the lore and then selling it separately...

But I got everything else.

To say I'm disappointed with the way that BioWare gave us misleading information on the run up to the game, and then dismissed us as a bunch of whining entitlement-****s after we started speaking up about it, is a disgrace to publishers and gamers everywhere, and it needs to be put right.

I've said in many different threads, as well as in my own letter to Dr Ray, but I'll say it here.

We deserve better. We deserve to get what we paid for, and were told we would be getting.

Most importantly, we deserve a true, diverse choice of how we want our story to end... The choice that the very franchise was founded upon... The very choice that Casey Hudson himself told us we would be getting... The very choice that should have been integral to the product from the very beginning... To the last moment in the game.

Hold the line.

[JudgeOverdose]

Before I get started, I want to state that I do not, in any way, intend this post to be an attack on the company or individuals within the company; it is merely an analysis of the situation from the standpoint of a consumer. Any and all are free to ignore it, hate it, or love it.

JohnnyG wrote...

Below are quotes that were made by BioWare before the game was released.  As such, they represent a spoken/written promise by you to your customers regarding Mass Effect 3.  Artistic choices are wonderful and should be allowed, except when you are producing commissioned art where you promised it would contain certain things.

This is the core of the issue. (Mind you, I haven't read all of the 15 pages; I'm old and my eyes don't have the stamina to read every word on a forum anymore.) But what detractors from the movement (to change the ending to something that takes our choices into account) seem to be missing is that we are simply asking BioWare to deliver on the promises they made to us.

I went through the entirety of three full games and became invested in the universe, the characters, and the relationships... only to find out that in the end, despite promises to the contrary, I had to pick from three vanilla endings (which everyone got) that all worked out about the same in terms of delivery, visual, and consequence. (Thumbs-up cupcake campaign.) 

Objective fact: BioWare promised us that our choices would impact the ending, and they did not.

Objective fact: A company that makes promises about its products and fails to deliver on them is guilty of false advertising.

The trust a consumer places in a company to deliver on its promises is a huge driving force in a market economy; not to mention making false promises to your customers, and the continued defense of said action rings pretty close with the legal definition of fraudulent misrepresentation. This is bad news for both the consumer and the company; when consumers can no longer trust that you will deliver on your promises, they cease to be your customers, and that, in turn, hurts the company. I, for one, can state that despite the fact that I have been a loyal BioWare customer for approximately 10 years, I will no longer be purchasing BioWare products (including other beloved series such as Dragon Age) if they do not reverse their refusal to live up to their promises.

I keep thinking, what if Ronco released the Showtime Rotisserie by continually touting "set it and forget it", but stripped the feature out prior to shipping units and said, "Hey guys, it is artistic integrity! We are listening, though, and we may sell said feature that we've already promised you at a later date for 1/6 the cost of the original unit; no promises it will ever even be a part of the product, though." What about a "hybrid car" that only actually got 15mpg, an "alcoholic beverage" that provided a buzz for no one, "filet mignon" that was actually a ground chuck hamburger patty, or a "coast-to-coast" trip across the United States that started in Los Angeles and ended when you got to Las Vegas? It's false advertising; it's bad business; it is objectively indefensible.

Call it what you want, but it is in no way unreasonable, nor does it set a "dangerous precedent" (special thanks to IGN) for a consumer to ask a company to deliver on the promises it makes.  All we are asking is for BioWare to deliver on its promises, and to thereby re-earn some of our trust -- which, by the way, many of us want very badlly to be able to restore. In the end, it boils down to this: which do they value more -- is it artistic integrity, or their reputation as an honest company? Only time will tell.

$0.02

[Edited for weird formatting.]

Modifié par JudgeOverdose, 30 mars 2012 - 10:51 .

[Barict78]

i will say this seems well thought out i never had really looked at it this way even tho my end conclusion was the same lack of trust=not buying from a company i love and have loved for what 10-12 years since BauldersGate whenever that came out. Everything BW does up till now has been pure Brilliance and even if DA3 will be utterly Fantastic i cant see myself being able to buy it after all this which is soooo sad for me.

But i will say that the Mods in this forum have gone out of their way to talk to us as much as they can and have been extremely civil considering the attacks they recieve every minute of every day. they do a bang up job of separating the Trolls from the actual Fans who are respectful. Hell Woo does most of his Mod Duties on his OWN time now that shows us that he CARES and that actually gives me hope about the situation. Eplers really good about being there and answering as much as he can too and he is very level headed and cares too, So i take hope from these 2 examples if BioWare can employ 2 caring people like that it gives me great hope as it should us all.

[devwild]

FS3D wrote...
Most importantly, we deserve a true, diverse choice of how we want our story to end... The choice that the very franchise was founded upon... The very choice that Casey Hudson himself told us we would be getting... The very choice that should have been integral to the product from the very beginning... To the last moment in the game.
.

Not only did Casey say we would be getting choice, say we wouldn't get the A/B/C ending, promised so many things... by all accounts it sounds like Casey was the one who wrote that ending. I can't get past the fact that, intended or not, based on his comments before and since the release of the game, it feels like a personal insult to the fans. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not (and I deeply apologize for considering it if not), but right now that's how it feels.

I was among those who, while I had heard about the ending, even some spoilers, I figured it wouldn't be that bad. I mean, I was among those few who actually kind of liked the ending of Lost and came up with my own twisted way it was cool (mainly due to some amusing writing tricks). But when I actually got to the end this week (creeping up on midnight, tired and worn out from the time and the last battle, annoyed because my xbox froze before the last TIM encounter), it was so blunt, the logic so apparently wrong, the A/B/C choice so heavy handedly displayed, core values of the game completely discarded, the disastrous impact on society above and beyond anything previously encountered basically ignored...

I felt like I was just smacked in the face.

The next day I finally looked into the indoctrination theory out of curiosity, because I had started having similar thoughts about how much of the ending was out of place - the lack of challenge, the order of the colors, the nature of the "good" choices... and afterwards I felt like to some limited extent I had to believe that was a possibility, because otherwise this whole thing was just... wrong.


And to quote this excellent article I read yesterday (language warning): http://bit.ly/H6AMnN

Dear writers: If you create something, and your readers hope
that what you just gave them was, in reality, an “it was a dream all
along” ending, because that would be better than what you wrote, you
seriously. f*****. up.

Modifié par devwild, 01 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[Priisus]

Not sure if I remember it correctly but I think the devs said that Shep's background will play a prominent role in ME3...

If it is then...so far I've only gotten 2 mentions of Hannah Shepard, 1 mention of Mindoir, Akuze, Skyllian Blitz and Torfan. I honestly can't even remotely recall if there's anything for Earthborn Shep or which city s/he is from or anything...?

[Liber320]

I would really love to see how they respond directly to these quotes being brought up

[Occulo]

I still remember someone from BioWare posting on the forums somewhere last year that female Shepards would get a special surprise at the end. And then everyone posting pictures of baby asari in that thread. Does anyone else remember that post? I've been searching for it but I haven't found it...

[Namz89]

How comes they always have someone to say "stay civil", but never react to what the thread is about... *sigh*

Keep this thread up people. Even Bioware can't ignore this forever without facing the consequences at some point.

[J717]

They stabbed the fanbase in its collective back - they didn't just lie, they flat out took our trust, and our money, and then shoved a giant middle finger in our faces by not delivering at all what they said they would with regards to the ending. No need to skirt around the issue like it's smaller than it actually is; they took advantage of their fanbase, plain and simple. I certainly feel like a sucker after preordering the Collector's Edition - but, never again BioWare...it boils down to no ending fix, no more money for you from me, ever.

[Clayless]

There is deceit in the OP. You take a quote from a magazine saying Mike Gamble promised a Reapers win scenario, but you fail to include the part where he clarified that on Twitter a few hours later, or the next day.

That's deceit, or crappy investigative jounalism, which throws the rest of the OP into question.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 03 avril 2012 - 01:29 .

[nopantsisabela]

Oh wow thanks for posting these quotes. I thought people were blowing the false advertising thing out of proportion because I mainly bought the game based on the merits of ME1 and 2. But now I do kind of agree that things were very inaccurately advertised. The post-gold stuff makes no sense to me. Why promise things like that if you know that's not how your game is?

[Liber320]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

There is deceit in the OP. You take a quote from a magazine saying Mike Gamble promised a Reapers win scenario, but you fail to include the part where he clarified that on Twitter a few hours later, or the next day.

That's deceit, or crappy investigative jounalism, which throws the rest of the OP into question.

Care to provide us with said post?

Not saying I don't believe you, but making an argument without providing the evidence to support it is crappy debating

[Ender99]

You speak lies sir!

Doesn't he realize that once things are loosed on the internet, you can never delete them? Did he think we wouldn't remember his previous statements? We do have memories longer than a goldfish you know!

Thanks OP for posting this up.

[The Makr]

All I can say is:

Complete the ending. Make it free. Do it asap.

Anything less is truly beneath the legacy of great games that has long served as the foundation of Bioware.

[Clayless]

Liber320 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

There is deceit in the OP. You take a quote from a magazine saying Mike Gamble promised a Reapers win scenario, but you fail to include the part where he clarified that on Twitter a few hours later, or the next day.

That's deceit, or crappy investigative jounalism, which throws the rest of the OP into question.

Care to provide us with said post?

Not saying I don't believe you, but making an argument without providing the evidence to support it is crappy debating

Yep, right here:

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/106895746313363457

[RenownedRyan]

youtu.be/kyE4CLM0QIA

[Liber320]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Liber320 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

There is deceit in the OP. You take a quote from a magazine saying Mike Gamble promised a Reapers win scenario, but you fail to include the part where he clarified that on Twitter a few hours later, or the next day.

That's deceit, or crappy investigative jounalism, which throws the rest of the OP into question.

Care to provide us with said post?

Not saying I don't believe you, but making an argument without providing the evidence to support it is crappy debating

Yep, right here:

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/106895746313363457

Thanks.

The way the quote is worded leads you to assume that the Reapers winning is a viable and real ending, not a "game over" screen.

If that's all he meant, why mention it in the first place. Every other game dev out there could say "hey, there's a possibility that the bad guys win!"

It seems more likeley to me that he misspoke, not meaning that he lied or anything like that, and dind't want to admit his mistake.

[Clayless]

Liber320 wrote...

Thanks.

The way the quote is worded leads you to assume that the Reapers winning is a viable and real ending, not a "game over" screen.

If that's all he meant, why mention it in the first place. Every other game dev out there could say "hey, there's a possibility that the bad guys win!"

It seems more likeley to me that he misspoke, not meaning that he lied or anything like that, and dind't want to admit his mistake.

Actually if you check it's the magazine making that assumption. He clarified what he meant on Twitter after he saw all the out of context quotes flying around, and showed that the "Reapers win" scenario is actually just the game over screen.

The thing you need to ask yourself is why does the OP suspiciously leave this information out? Why is he using deceit to try and make Bioware look like they were lying?

This throws into question everything in the OP. You now can't trust anything in it, and instead you need to do your own investigative journalism, making this thread pointless.

[FlyingCow371]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Liber320 wrote...

Thanks.

The way the quote is worded leads you to assume that the Reapers winning is a viable and real ending, not a "game over" screen.

If that's all he meant, why mention it in the first place. Every other game dev out there could say "hey, there's a possibility that the bad guys win!"

It seems more likeley to me that he misspoke, not meaning that he lied or anything like that, and dind't want to admit his mistake.

Actually if you check it's the magazine making that assumption. He clarified what he meant on Twitter after he saw all the out of context quotes flying around, and showed that the "Reapers win" scenario is actually just the game over screen.

The thing you need to ask yourself is why does the OP suspiciously leave this information out? Why is he using deceit to try and make Bioware look like they were lying?

This throws into question everything in the OP. You now can't trust anything in it, and instead you need to do your own investigative journalism, making this thread pointless.

The OP might not have been leaving things out on purpose. Granted, I am bad at twitter, but it seems a lot easier to search/find media articles/quotes than it is to find a post from twitter. And media outlets feel like a more substantial and reliable source of information than twitter, at least to me.

As far as having a legit reapers win ending...that would be cool. The game that comes to mind that did that sort of ending well was Chrono Trigger. They legit had a bunch of endings, and they were actually different, and things you did in game mattered.

[RockyRoberts]

@Our_Last_Scene I can respect your opinion, but there are facts in the OP that advertised a game w/o A, B, C endings. like others have mentioned what about Shepard's back story (I played an earth born...did not mention a city afaik)

There were clarifications made about a "reapers win scenario"...and you have illustrated them in the twitter message. That is what forums are for, discussion and developing ideas. I appreciate the clarification on that specific mention however I also respect what Chobot had to say: blanket statements [about the entirety of the post being more than in question on a discussion forum in this instance] doesn't solve any problems nor help either side compromise.

@ OP: thank you for rehashing this, I look forward to seeing progress here

[Liber320]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Liber320 wrote...

Thanks.

The way the quote is worded leads you to assume that the Reapers winning is a viable and real ending, not a "game over" screen.

If that's all he meant, why mention it in the first place. Every other game dev out there could say "hey, there's a possibility that the bad guys win!"

It seems more likeley to me that he misspoke, not meaning that he lied or anything like that, and dind't want to admit his mistake.

Actually if you check it's the magazine making that assumption. He clarified what he meant on Twitter after he saw all the out of context quotes flying around, and showed that the "Reapers win" scenario is actually just the game over screen.

The thing you need to ask yourself is why does the OP suspiciously leave this information out? Why is he using deceit to try and make Bioware look like they were lying?

This throws into question everything in the OP. You now can't trust anything in it, and instead you need to do your own investigative journalism, making this thread pointless.

"In an inteview with
NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass
Effect 3's plot, including a negative ending in which the Reapers win.
Gamble simply said , 'Yes'. We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, 'Yes'."

While it could be argued that he was answering the first part of that question and attempting to remain vauge, it could also easily be seen as him confirming the Reapers can win.

That being said, I think he simply misspoke or misinterpreted the question.

As for the OP, if you seriously think this is an attempt at being deceitful, and that it ruins the credibility of all the other "false promises" that have yet to be addressed by Bioware, you are being unfairly accusative.
He is not a professional journalist, nor is this an official article. He can't be expected to hunt down every piece of information relevant to every quote he brings up. Citing the source of the quote is all that is required.

And while you have every right to challenge his post and point out errors, finding one instance of quoting a statement that was corrected on twitter (which many people don't use) and using it to try and discredit the entire post is being extremely unfair

As to why it was left out, he was probably unaware of it. Do you really expect him to know everything?

[Clayless]

FlyingCow371 wrote...

The OP might not have been leaving things out on purpose. Granted, I am bad at twitter, but it seems a lot easier to search/find media articles/quotes than it is to find a post from twitter. And media outlets feel like a more substantial and reliable source of information than twitter, at least to me.

As far as having a legit reapers win ending...that would be cool. The game that comes to mind that did that sort of ending well was Chrono Trigger. They legit had a bunch of endings, and they were actually different, and things you did in game mattered.

It's irrelevant if it was on purpose or not, the conclusion is the same, the OP cannot be trusted.

Either he was puposely using deceit whilst ironically calling Bioware liars or he never knew about it (which I'd think is unlikely given his collection of quotes) which would undermine the rest of his post as how many other quotes have been clarified?

The end result is if you want the truth, the OP is the wrong place to look.

[Liber320]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

FlyingCow371 wrote...

The OP might not have been leaving things out on purpose. Granted, I am bad at twitter, but it seems a lot easier to search/find media articles/quotes than it is to find a post from twitter. And media outlets feel like a more substantial and reliable source of information than twitter, at least to me.

As far as having a legit reapers win ending...that would be cool. The game that comes to mind that did that sort of ending well was Chrono Trigger. They legit had a bunch of endings, and they were actually different, and things you did in game mattered.

It's irrelevant if it was on purpose or not, the conclusion is the same, the OP cannot be trusted.

Either he was puposely using deceit whilst ironically calling Bioware liars or he never knew about it (which I'd think is unlikely given his collection of quotes) which would undermine the rest of his post as how many other quotes have been clarified?

The end result is if you want the truth, the OP is the wrong place to look.

You're sounding extremely biased right now.

The OP was unaware of one piece of information that I'm sure most people without a twitter account were aware of, and you're acusing him of either being decietful or inept.

It's starting to sound like you just have a thing against people who are angry/displeased/frustrated with Bioware and are doing whatever you can toshoot them down.

[FlyingCow371]

I don't think they would have been able to clarify most of the other quotes sufficiently to align with the experience we actually got from the ending. Some of the **** people on the ME team have said seemed to be pretty much the opposite of what actually ends up happening. Plus Bioware isn't new...they've been around long enough to be better at PR and say true things.

I don't think it should be okay for a company to go out and say something, then the next day on a random twitter account say "oops, my bad, what I meant to say was actually the opposite of that...you know what, you should probably just ignore everything we say." 'cause if they're going that route...it'd be best to say nothing at all. If they did take that strategy of no comments, there would likely be less fan outcry and people wouldn't have to create complicated theories to explain how the ME3 game can exist at the same time while the pre-release quotes could also be non-falsehoods.