612 réponses à ce sujet

[Torrible]

Ahdia wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

A pity, the last one got closed, you made very good points. The only reason I preordered my Mass Effect 3 instead of just waiting to purchase it was because I was incentivized by those promises.

Yup, same for me. I will never, ever preorder anything with a bioware or EA label again. I'm really not fond of being lied to by any company.

So you wouldn't have preordered if Bioware had said "We cannot guarantee anything about the game at all. Look at the gameplay footage, trailers, play the demo and decide for yourself" ?

Modifié par Torrible, 03 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[ahandsomeshark]

VigilancePress wrote...

It's very hard to add to the comprehensive list of complaints here without paraphrasing what has been said, but I will try.

One of my main complaints with the blatantly misleading quotes from developers about Mass Effect 3 is my lack of power as a consumer to react to them constructively. The video games and software market has changed dramatically in the last 20 or so years, shifting all the power to the companies selling their wares, and stripping it from the consumer. To wit: I can't return a product that doesn't deliver as advertised. So, honestly, it doesn't matter how I feel about a game once I buy it, I can't take it back and get reimbursed. Once open, that game is now only resellable, and with downloadable versions I don't even have *that* option.

Along this line, I was talking with a friend and he called the complaints about the ending "Childish" and so forth. I explained calmly that I was a member of the Retake Mass Effect movement, and I didn't appreciate that label being thrown around without understanding what we want. He asked me if I could get my money back, if I would return the game. I told him I would, because it would tell the company I was not satisfied with the product as it was. He stopped calling the movement childish then, and started listening. The idea that I would rather return the product and get my money back than play it helps illustrate how disillusioned I was with the company that created it as well as the product itself.

Two things this experience has taught me: firstly, I will never purchase another downloadable game, unless I'm *absolutely* certain about the game I'm buying. Secondly, I will never believe another thing from BioWare's interviews about a product they're hyping. I will wait until I get trustworthy reviews, reviews that are released *after* the game has been on the shelf long enough to be played (after any 'gag' agreements which limit people to publishing only positive reviews in exchange for early access to the game for reviewing purposes are no longer relevant). I will wait until a friend has finished the game and can give me a well-reasoned description of the game's quality.

Trust is very important in this kind of marketplace, as much as I despise the modern gaming marketplace. EA and BioWare have lost my trust as a consumer. From now on, I will be very cautious in purchasing anything from either of those names.

In fact, this experience has gone a long way towards souring my already-stressed love of this hobby. A few more experiences like this, and I may simply swear off video games for good. It's not like there aren't lots of other great hobbies I could be investing time and money in.

At least Warriors Orochi 3 delivered on all the promises it made. Very happy with that purchase.

I don't know what's happening in the rest of this thread but I cosign this. Except I dont have to worry about being cautious in terms of EA/Bioware because Bioware games are the only EA games I buy. So I just won't be buying them.

[dkear1]

Torrible wrote...
So you wouldn't have preordered if Bioware had said "We cannot guarantee anything about the game at all. Look at the gameplay footage, trailers, play the demo and decide for yourself" ?

None of your examples show the horrible ending so........

Game reviewers have proved that that are suspect so a good senerio is to let someone else be the ginea pig and buy it.  Then read their reviews on it.   After reading a dozen or so well done purchaser reviews you should have enough info to make your decision.  So you miss out on some gun or armor....who cares!  It will be availible in a month or so via dlc anyway.

Modifié par dkear1, 03 avril 2012 - 04:26 .

[ahandsomeshark]

Shallyah wrote...

I do not think that Bioware realy advertised their product in a disloyal way to their followers. The way some statements were made were "tainted" with a lot of passion and belieft, so either Casey Hudson deserves a role in Hollywood or he wasn't lying.

What I believe is that time constrains and schedules, and perhaps policy changes during the creation of Mass Effect 3 forced the game take a diferent course from what was originally planned.

That doesn't excuse Bioware, but while I believe they'd do good to "fix" the endings, I don't think they've deliberately lied and betrayed their fans just to sell more games.

this also. I don't think they lied. I think they just bit off way more than they could chew given their budget and timeline and were forced to take almost as axe saw to their original ideas. Which is probably why the parts that were written earlier, like Tuchanka, and Rannoch are SO well done (though Tuchanka more than Rannoch) and really as a game the first half is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the second half. And why so many of the little things we're used to from bioware games seemed to have just gotten thrown out of the window, like real in depth dialogue with your squad mates, especially with Tali and the VS's since they were probably still working out what their roles would be, and exploration, and side missions and nevermind the last battle on earth. 

[RenascentAnt1]

bump

[Osiris273]

Bioware should really deliver what they promised us.

[ahandsomeshark]

Torrible wrote...

Ahdia wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

A pity, the last one got closed, you made very good points. The only reason I preordered my Mass Effect 3 instead of just waiting to purchase it was because I was incentivized by those promises.

Yup, same for me. I will never, ever preorder anything with a bioware or EA label again. I'm really not fond of being lied to by any company.

So you wouldn't have preordered if Bioware had said "We cannot guarantee anything about the game at all. Look at the gameplay footage, trailers, play the demo and decide for yourself" ?

I wouldn't have pre-ordered if they had said the ending level would actually not follow the gameplay of the Suicide Mission and instead would just be a linear fight down some London corriders, or if they had said we lied about no fetch quests instead pretty much all of your side missions will be fetch quests.

[T-Zero]

Part of why I'm taking our hope about an ending dlc with several grains of salt is that I just don't see how Bioware can address all the issues these promises have made about the material contained in the game, and the massive disconnect between what we as players were promised and what was delivered. To do so would require months of work... which is what I'm hoping BW will announce at Pax; that they're going to go through and address everything we've been saying. Personally, if they did decide to do so, I would gladly wait as long as it took for them to iron everything out.

But then the realist in me says that such a thing simply won't happen.

[RShara]

The OP should add the quotes from the Game Informer thread that was created today, so that the list continues to be comprehensive.

[Torrible]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Ahdia wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

A pity, the last one got closed, you made very good points. The only reason I preordered my Mass Effect 3 instead of just waiting to purchase it was because I was incentivized by those promises.

Yup, same for me. I will never, ever preorder anything with a bioware or EA label again. I'm really not fond of being lied to by any company.

So you wouldn't have preordered if Bioware had said "We cannot guarantee anything about the game at all. Look at the gameplay footage, trailers, play the demo and decide for yourself" ?

I wouldn't have pre-ordered if they had said the ending level would actually not follow the gameplay of the Suicide Mission and instead would just be a linear fight down some London corriders, or if they had said we lied about no fetch quests instead pretty much all of your side missions will be fetch quests.

So if they had remained silent you would have bought it?

[rogueagent6]

I think my favorite quote is this:

We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is.

Artistic integrity my hairy backside...

[Clayless]

RShara wrote...

The OP should add the quotes from the Game Informer thread that was created today, so that the list continues to be comprehensive.

He should also add the disclaimer that not everything in his OP should be taken at face value, and you should instead do your own research.

[D.I.Y_Death]

Thomas Abram wrote...

We have locked a handful of threads on this subject due to them getting out of hand. Please keep this civil, constructive and on topic to avoid the samething happening here.

QUoting this as a reminder that Bioware has been here and has set up specific peramiters to have this thread going. It's a friendly reminder.

There's a ton of misinformationg given and a whole new level of ambigious text to augment the problem.
This is why you over specify and confirm your details before doing interviews, so you don't make enough contradictions to choke Richard Dawkins out of existence.

[ahandsomeshark]

this is a really good topic. but it also seems to be flame bait.

It would be cool if you could organize a topic like this and have people write- well thought out responses, from their view as the consumer on how it makes us feel about continuing to buy products from these companies given some of the questionable language used in promotion.

I would try and set it up myself right now but i slightly tipsy and it's taken me something like 20 minutes of one eye squintin just to write this post. So if anyone is interested in the idea or of setting it up pm me and I will get back to you tomorrow morning when the keys stop moving

[joblagz]

i agree but in this regard they came through on everything (mordin's life, romance selection, krogan alliance or salarian, the geth's future, etc..) all but the ending..
the ending leaves more questions than answers contrary to what mike gamble said..
i just wish dr ray muzyka would read this..

[FlyingCow371]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

I do not think that Bioware realy advertised their product in a disloyal way to their followers. The way some statements were made were "tainted" with a lot of passion and belieft, so either Casey Hudson deserves a role in Hollywood or he wasn't lying.

What I believe is that time constrains and schedules, and perhaps policy changes during the creation of Mass Effect 3 forced the game take a diferent course from what was originally planned.

That doesn't excuse Bioware, but while I believe they'd do good to "fix" the endings, I don't think they've deliberately lied and betrayed their fans just to sell more games.

this also. I don't think they lied. I think they just bit off way more than they could chew given their budget and timeline and were forced to take almost as axe saw to their original ideas. Which is probably why the parts that were written earlier, like Tuchanka, and Rannoch are SO well done (though Tuchanka more than Rannoch) and really as a game the first half is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the second half. And why so many of the little things we're used to from bioware games seemed to have just gotten thrown out of the window, like real in depth dialogue with your squad mates, especially with Tali and the VS's since they were probably still working out what their roles would be, and exploration, and side missions and nevermind the last battle on earth. 

Biting off more than they can chew is a very likely explanation for the pre-gold comments. That sucks that the great ideas they put out there couldn't be fulfilled, but that happens to a lot of studios when real world pressures intrude on the vision. But they didn't stop there, and continued making similar comments after the game was finished and, in theory, they would know what is included in their game.

Casey Hudson (Director) 2/17/12
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.” 

Especially: "It really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it." Which is far from true. So, to say something like that after the game was finished; you'd have to either be lying, or not be familiar with what's in the actual game. I'm not sure which is less likely, either way hurts.

[kingsteve1515]

I can deal with puffery. Thats fine. I can deal with some exaggeration. Even some speculation from early quotes that may didn't pan out once the game was completed is somewhat acceptable. But to be directly lied to multiples times AFTER the game was complete and on disc....whats going on there?

If ME 3 went gold 2/13/12 then Bioware knew exactly what game we were getting. And then they had multiple employees outright lie about the game. Not exaggerate. But lie. And that's the part that gets me. How can you say “[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

How can you say “There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.”

That destroys all the trust I had in this company. For someone to sit there and tell me "everything will be different" and in the end its 3 (really 1) predefined ending that not only is unsatisfying, but full of plot holes, contradictions, impossibilities, and series crippling logical loops, is unacceptable. And that hurts. 5 years of books and games and excitement thrown away.

But at least if we got honesty and straightforward answers it would be a little easier to handle.

[Devils-DIVISION]

 Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending.
BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than
answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised.

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.” 

I'm imagining the biggest troll face. 

[clos]

I wonder how long before Bioware locks another thread filled with their false promises. They are losing more cred by the minute.

[mirage2154]

I wonder what IGN has to say by this! Because we are entitled a well explain ending, and our right is protected by law!

[JeffKaos]

One of the saddest things about all of this is that I have really fond memories of EA. Way back in the olden days, oh about 1985 or so EA made some of the best games I ever played on my old Commodore 64. Games like "EA's Adventure Construction Set" and "EA's Racing Destruction Set". I can still see the wierd, multi colored EA logo appear before a game starting up. The older I get the more I'm starting to realise that everything cool eventually becomes.......well, I don't want to say lame so I'll just say everything becomes a lot less cool.

[Liber320]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Liber320 wrote...

Show me one person who is unconditionally trustworthy.
If you didn't trust anyone who said something that eventually turned out to be false, then you wouldn't be able to trust anyone, ever.

I have no reason to doubt him. Does that mean I trust everything he says? Not neccissarily, which is why the links provided are useful.

And let me add another option


3 - You are clinically paranoid




Also, you failed to respond to my post, instead resulted to deflecting it by asking a question.

Because I've already shown why I can't trust him. You for example haven't done anything to make me trust you or distrust you, which is fine, because you're not making any massive claims (AKA Bioware aren't to be trusted). 

Even if you did it would just be your opinion, I could just say "I disagree" and it would be equally valid.

Whereas if you said "They can't be trusted, here's a bunch of facts helping me prove my point" but slip in something that isn't a fact, and is instead an out of context quote, I wouldn't be able to trust you as you would've shown yourself to be untrustworthy.

You know why I don't trust him, and you say you don't trust him, yet you used his links? Surely you should've done your own investigating?

Why do you keep implying that he "slipped" in an out -of-context quote, as if you know for a fact that he knew it "false"?
It makes no sense, considering everything else is legitimate. If he only had one or two solid points and supplemented them with a bunch of false ones, then it might make sense.
But going on what was presented, it makes more logical sense that he simply missed the twitter post, as I and many others have.
Instead of accusing the OP of being deceitful or untrustworthy, you could have chosen to be helpful and simply told him that one of his points has been adressed.

All he is doing with this post is stating his opinion and preemptively supplying evidence that supports it. How would you react to a thread saying that Bioware are liars without anything to back it?

And while I have no reason to trust him, I also have no reason to distrust him. Trust has to be earned, but so does distrust. I wouldn't trust him just because he said one thing that was true, and I wouldn't distrust him simply because he said one thing that was false.

So no, I didn't accept everything he said as fact, or believe that the quotes were accurate/unadressed. But that doesn't mean I thought he was lying.


Tell me again, how does missing one twitter post and thus having one quote that he did not realise was adressed by the person who was quoted diminish the credibility of the others, which from what I have seen seem accurate, not taken out of context and have not yet been adressed by Bioware?

Also, think back to a time when you told someone something that turned out to be wrong. Would it make more sense for that person to constantly doubt you and assume you were trying to trick them, or for them to realise you were either misinformed or simply made a mistake?

[Liber320]

clos wrote...

I wonder how long before Bioware locks another thread filled with their false promises. They are losing more cred by the minute.

A mod's already been to this thread. They won't lock it as long as we stay on-topic and civil

[Wolven_Soul]

firebreather19 wrote...

Exaggerated language is always a part of selling a product. Do you really think a elves make Keebler cookies, or that Gatorade actually turns you sweat into different colors? This has been going on for decades...why is this one game out of everything you've ever watched listened to or experienced the one you need to call "false advertising" on? Not "trolling," honest question. Just appears to be more searching for justification for disliking the endings than anything else.

Poor analogies.  Keebler does not advertise that elves made their cookies.  Gatorade does not actually advertise that your sweat will change colors.  That is visual imagery.  Bioware made promises they did not keep.  Huge difference.