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Commentary for BioWare on false advertising


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#426
Liber320

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

RShara wrote...

The OP should add the quotes from the Game Informer thread that was created today, so that the list continues to be comprehensive.


He should also add the disclaimer that not everything in his OP should be taken at face value, and you should instead do your own research.


For the love of god, give it up already. I don't know why you are so hell-bent on demeaning the OP.

#427
Chrislo1990

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I don't think I can ever trust a single word tha comes out of a Bioware dev after reading this. The amount of promises they broke is staggering!

#428
Wolven_Soul

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TheLostGenius wrote...

There has been absolutely no false advertising in regards to the product or its quality. You only have a subjective opinion and EA/Bioware has sold a content rich game that surpasses what was advertised and you all should be ashamed at yourselves for bringing such a baseless and thoughtless accusation up in the forum like this.

/end thread


Wrong....sooooo wrong.

#429
Garlador

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Look, I don't ask for much.

I do ask that bioware gives us the content that sold me on the game. That's reasonable.

#430
Cyruge

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Alright, I'll try to be civil. The people who made those quotes are either horribly ignorant or complete and utter liars.

#431
Liber320

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Garlador wrote...

Look, I don't ask for much.

I do ask that bioware gives us the content that sold me on the game. That's reasonable.


Agreed. I can forgive many of the pre-gold promises, as things change during development and somethings just turn out to not work.

However, they have no excuse for the things they said post-gold.

#432
Chrislo1990

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Bioware could have also negotiated with EA for more time to further perfect the story and uphold their promises, but they didn't or didn't plead their case well enough. I remember Crysis 2 was pushed back a couple of times because it simply wasn't ready. If EA let that slide , why wouldn't it have sone the same for ME3. ME3 was delayed only once. To be honest I would have been fine if they had delayed it again, so long as they delivered. Priority should always come first.

Modifié par Chrislo1990, 03 avril 2012 - 05:53 .


#433
Flyprdu

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My question is... where is it? I can't fathom that a studio would so blatantly and willing deceive its audience. It's just bad business. That makes for one good sale. And then your reputation is trash and you'll never repeat that success again.

So, why do it? Where's the rest of the game?

#434
Clayless

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Liber320 wrote...

Tell me again, how does missing one twitter post and thus having one quote that he did not realise was adressed by the person who was quoted diminish the credibility of the others, which from what I have seen seem accurate, not taken out of context and have not yet been adressed by Bioware?

Also, think back to a time when you told someone something that turned out to be wrong. Would it make more sense for that person to constantly doubt you and assume you were trying to trick them, or for them to realise you were either misinformed or simply made a mistake?


Good question, but how do you know it is accurate? Did you research it yourself or did you take it from the OP who has already been proven to be inaccurate?

And if I told someone that X person is lying, but I use lies or incorrect information to show this, then I'd fully expect that person to not take my word on whether or not someone else is lying in the future.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 03 avril 2012 - 05:55 .


#435
Liber320

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Flyprdu wrote...

My question is... where is it? I can't fathom that a studio would so blatantly and willing deceive its audience. It's just bad business. That makes for one good sale. And then your reputation is trash and you'll never repeat that success again.

So, why do it? Where's the rest of the game?


Honestly, this would only make sense if it was Bioware's last game. Even then, it would really hurt the reputation of the ME devs, at least the ones quoted in the OP.

What I'm really wondering is how no one's really picked up on this. Most people are focusing on the specifics of what made the ending bad, not the appearent lies that were told.

#436
Xaijin

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The following quotes are from last year's game informer. They are not altered. They are Casey Hudson.

“In Mass Effect 3, you know you need to take back Earth, but the path to victory is less clear at the outset. You won’t just find some long-lost Reaper “off” button; says Hudson”

“Don’t expect to win the loyalty of the galaxy by simply completing a series of fetch quests,”

“When the teaser for Mass Effect 3 first released, rumours were swirling that the project was actually a multiplayer title set in the Mass Effect universe. Those rumours turned out to be false, but it got many gamers thinking about how a multiplayer component would fit into the Mass Effect trilogy.

Rest assured, the team has thought about this, too. “As a single-player experience, and just as a world that people want to immerse themselves in and share, we’ve been trying to think of a way that makes sense for people to experience Mass Effect with their friends,” says executive producer Casey Hudson. “We haven’t yet come up with a way to do that, so we don’t have anything to announce at this time. But, obviously, multiplayer is something we want to do more of in the future as a company.”

“… part of what you’re trying to do is save the universe so you can live in it. That’s part of the promise, I think, for any great IP. It has to be a world worth saving… I think Mass Effect has that quality to it. If you get rid of the Reapers and win that, wouldn’t it be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega? That makes sense.”


Modifié par Xaijin, 03 avril 2012 - 06:03 .


#437
Liber320

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Liber320 wrote...

Tell me again, how does missing one twitter post and thus having one quote that he did not realise was adressed by the person who was quoted diminish the credibility of the others, which from what I have seen seem accurate, not taken out of context and have not yet been adressed by Bioware?

Also, think back to a time when you told someone something that turned out to be wrong. Would it make more sense for that person to constantly doubt you and assume you were trying to trick them, or for them to realise you were either misinformed or simply made a mistake?


Good question, but how do you know it is accurate? Did you research it yourself or did you take it from the OP who has already been proven to be inaccurate?

And if I told someone that X person is lying, but I use lies or incorrect information to show this, then I'd fully expect that person to not take my word on whether or not someone else is lying in the future.



I haven't researched it extensively, but none of the quotes the OP brought up are new ones. They've been discussed in thread after thread since this whole ending thing started, and the only one that seems to have been adressed was the one you pointed out.

All the OP is doing is bringing all the seperate evidence that Bioware has lied to us, or made promises they didn't fufill, into one thread so they can all be discussed at the same time in one place.
ANd he hasn't proven to be innacurate, there was evidence that he may be innacurate, which is countebalaced by much more evidence that he is accurate (ie, the other quotes that are much less open to interpretation and have not, to my knowledge, been commented on by Bioware or a representative since they were made).

And what if you told someone that X was lying, used information that made sense, brought up several different instances of them lying, but accidentally mentioned one that you believed to be a lie and that X later clarified what he said, without your knowledge, and what you took to be a lie actually turned out to be true?

Do you still think it would be reasonable for the person to distrust everything else you've said?

#438
Liber320

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Xaijin wrote...

The following quotes are from last year's game informer. They are not altered. They are Casey Hudson.

“In Mass Effect 3, you know you need to take back Earth, but the path to victory is less clear at the outset. You won’t just find some long-lost Reaper “off” button; says Hudson”

“Don’t expect to win the loyalty of the galaxy by simply completing a series of fetch quests,”

“When the teaser for Mass Effect 3 first released, rumours were swirling that the project was actually a multiplayer title set in the Mass Effect universe. Those rumours turned out to be false, but it got many gamers thinking about how a multiplayer component would fit into the Mass Effect trilogy.

Rest assured, the team has thought about this, too. “As a single-player experience, and just as a world that people want to immerse themselves in and share, we’ve been trying to think of a way that makes sense for people to experience Mass Effect with their friends,” says executive producer Casey Hudson. “We haven’t yet come up with a way to do that, so we don’t have anything to announce at this time. But, obviously, multiplayer is something we want to do more of in the future as a company.”

“… part of what you’re trying to do is save the universe so you can live in it. That’s part of the promise, I think, for any great IP. It has to be a world worth saving… I think Mass Effect has that quality to it. If you get rid of the Reapers and win that, wouldn’t it be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega? That makes sense.”



That last paragraph...damn, would that have been cool.
THat being said, the article is relatively old, you can't hold them to everything they say pre-gold. The fact that they kept saying a lot os this stuff post-gold, that you can hold them to.

One of these gaming sites/magazines really has to do a follow-up interview where they bring up these things and ask them what they hell happened

#439
Clayless

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Actually they haven't been discussed. I'm the only person I've seen that has pointed out it's not true, people just keep on throwing all these quotes around like it's true, it's deceitful.

If I wasn't here, people would continue to blindly listen to the OP and spread around false information claiming Bioware lied when they never actually did.

I don't know what you're trying to do, make me blindly trust someone who I discovered isn't to be trusted? There's no way you'll convince me to trust the OP, especially as the OP was using deceit to try and "prove" his point.

It MAY be "counter-balanced" by other evidence, but if you are willing to show that you're either lie, or not fully researching your sources, then you're not going to be trusted by me. I'm just here to show that the OP isn't a good source of information, and you should instead research yourself to test if Bioware is lying, as everything the OP has said is suspect.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 03 avril 2012 - 06:13 .


#440
Merengues 1945

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Liber320 wrote...

Garlador wrote...

Look, I don't ask for much.

I do ask that bioware gives us the content that sold me on the game. That's reasonable.


Agreed. I can forgive many of the pre-gold promises, as things change during development and somethings just turn out to not work.

However, they have no excuse for the things they said post-gold.


yup... post gold promises were more than just false advertising... were rude lies.. they should apologize for that or at least accept they promised non-existent things.

#441
AcesRedd

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Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Actually they haven't been discussed. I'm the only person I've seen that has pointed out it's not true, people just keep on throwing all these quotes around like it's true, it's deceitful.

If I wasn't here, people would continue to blindly listen to the OP and spread around false information claiming Bioware lied when they never actually did.

I don't know what you're trying to do, make me blindly trust someone who I discovered isn't to be trusted? There's no way you'll convince me to trust the OP, especially as the OP was using deceit to try and "prove" his point.

It MAY be "counter-balanced" by other evidence, but if you are willing to show that you're either lie, or not fully researching your sources, then you're not going to be trusted by me. I'm just here to show that the OP isn't a good source of information, and you should instead research yourself to test if Bioware is lying, as everything the OP has said is suspect.


Well then tell us the facts, give us some links and lets have OP edit that so we don't add MORE lies to the many that BW has already said. :police: Unless you're just a WB fainboi needing a waaaambulance.

#442
JohnnyG

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[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

There is deceit in the OP. You take a quote from a magazine saying Mike Gamble promised a Reapers win scenario, but you fail to include the part where he clarified that on Twitter a few hours later, or the next day.

That's deceit, or crappy investigative jounalism, which throws the rest of the OP into question.[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Actually if you check it's the magazine making that assumption. He clarified what he meant on Twitter after he saw all the out of context quotes flying around, and showed that the "Reapers win" scenario is actually just the game over screen.

The thing you need to ask yourself is why does the OP suspiciously leave this information out? Why is he using deceit to try and make Bioware look like they were lying?

This throws into question everything in the OP. You now can't trust anything in it, and instead you need to do your own investigative journalism, making this thread pointless.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's irrelevant if it was on purpose or not, the conclusion is the same, the OP cannot be trusted.

Either he was puposely using deceit whilst ironically calling Bioware liars or he never knew about it (which I'd think is unlikely given his collection of quotes) which would undermine the rest of his post as how many other quotes have been clarified?

The end result is if you want the truth, the OP is the wrong place to look.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You need to think of it logically:

People are going off the OP's word here. The OP claims Bioware are liars, yet it's been proven that the OP's word is suspect, and not everything he claimed was true. There is nothing that seperates that one quote from the rest of the quotes, what makes you trust everything the OP says now that it's shown his word can't be trusted?

The only way to know if Bioware were lying is if you investigate it for yourself, which undermines this entire thread.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

There is nothing to seperate the rest of the quotes from that one though. Clicking his link, you wouldn't have known that Bioware clarified it and weren't actually lying, you would instead assume it was yet another lie that Bioware told. Doing your own investigating you'd realised that they weren't actually lying, and it would show that the OP was actually using deceit. For someone who wanted us to do our own investigating, it makes me wonder why he provided all those quotes in the first place. Surely a "Bioware are lying, but to find out you'll have to research yourself" would've sufficed.

Everyone makes mistakes, it's just unfortunate for the OP that this mistake has undermined his entire post.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Instead, explain to me what causes you to trust everything else he says.

I have shown that not everything he said can be trusted, what is causing you to ignore that and trust him anyway? His word can't be it, as his word is suspect.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

He cited sources even for the one that turned out to be incorrect. He linked to all these sources backing his point that Bioware were lying, but suspiciously left out the source that showed they weren't actually lying?

The OP is not the place to look if you want to find out if Bioware ever lied, as you'll have to search around for links not present in the OP to confirm if what the OP is saying is true or not.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Because I've already shown why I can't trust him. You for example haven't done anything to make me trust you or distrust you, which is fine, because you're not making any massive claims (AKA Bioware aren't to be trusted).

Even if you did it would just be your opinion, I could just say "I disagree" and it would be equally valid.

Whereas if you said "They can't be trusted, here's a bunch of facts helping me prove my point" but slip in something that isn't a fact, and is instead an out of context quote, I wouldn't be able to trust you as you would've shown yourself to be untrustworthy.

You know why I don't trust him, and you say you don't trust him, yet you used his links? Surely you should've done your own investigating?
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

He should also add the disclaimer that not everything in his OP should be taken at face value, and you should instead do your own research.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Good question, but how do you know it is accurate? Did you research it yourself or did you take it from the OP who has already been proven to be inaccurate?

And if I told someone that X person is lying, but I use lies or incorrect information to show this, then I'd fully expect that person to not take my word on whether or not someone else is lying in the future.
[/quote]
[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Actually they haven't been discussed. I'm the only person I've seen that has pointed out it's not true, people just keep on throwing all these quotes around like it's true, it's deceitful.

If I wasn't here, people would continue to blindly listen to the OP and spread around false information claiming Bioware lied when they never actually did.

I don't know what you're trying to do, make me blindly trust someone who I discovered isn't to be trusted? There's no way you'll convince me to trust the OP, especially as the OP was using deceit to try and "prove" his point.

It MAY be "counter-balanced" by other evidence, but if you are willing to show that you're either lie, or not fully researching your sources, then you're not going to be trusted by me. I'm just here to show that the OP isn't a good source of information, and you should instead research yourself to test if Bioware is lying, as everything the OP has said is suspect.
[/quote]
Wow!  What amazing animosity.  I am not sure how me not even knowing that the tweet existed (especially since I don't use Twitter) is me being purposefully deceitful (or somehow incompetent because I don't know of every single thing ever written on the Internet about ME3).  Now that I am aware of it, I have updated my original post so that other people are also aware of it.

You could've simply PM'd me with the information and I would've been happy to include it, but instead you chose to personally attack me.  What you fail to realize is that a BioWare employee (Thomas Abram) authorized me to post my original thread.  He was fully aware of the content, and he still allowed me to post.  So either he didn't know about the tweet you mentioned (in which case I have to wonder why I should've automatically been aware of it), or didn't view it as important enough to point out.  Also, if he thought I was being deceitful and making unfair accusations against BioWare, he wouldn't have given me permission to post this thread again.

Regardless, since I have updated the original post, I would appreciate it if you stopped directing your personal attacks against me.  I recommend that you re-read the site rules & code of conduct.  Pay particular attention to numbers 3 and 7.  I would certainly hate for you to be disciplined by the mods for inappropriate behavior.

#443
NM_Che56

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Maybe the DLC's will fulfill these promises, but I will still feel a little bothered that rather than tell us "hey, the ending will be shaped by DLC", we get this.

#444
Navywife64

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I remember reading the Gameinformer article and being so excited. Now I am just disappointed. Please sirs be true to your words. Have fun, be kind and hugs.

#445
xcomcmdr

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The Angry One wrote...

I cannot stress enough how important these promises were, along with BioWare's reputation, in my preorder of the Collector's Edition.
I spent the extra money because I wanted the best version of what I was certain would be an epic story shaped by my actions.

Instead, well you know. The point is you cannot point to "artistic integrity" when you promised us, again and again, something different.



#446
Sentr0

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did bioware answer? In which page?

#447
JohnnyG

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Sentr0 wrote...

did bioware answer? In which page?

They have not.  I was given permission by Thomas Abram to re-post this thread (the original one got too heated and he locked it).  He has posted in several places in the thread telling people to stay civil, but there has been no official response otherwise.

#448
Sentr0

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oh i see, thanks for the update...

#449
Schief724

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I updated my sig to link to this thread. Also here are some more quotes if you want to update your main post. I'm just copying and pasting, so there may be some repeats...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Game Informer (May 2011, issue 217)

“In Mass Effect 3, you know you need to take back Earth, but the path to victory is less clear at the outset. You won’t just find some long-lost Reaper “off” button," - Casey Hudson

“Don’t expect to win the loyalty of the galaxy by simply completing a series of fetch quests” - Casey Hudson

“… part of what you’re trying to do is save the universe so you can live in it. That’s part of the promise, I think, for any great IP. It has to be a world worth saving… I think Mass Effect has that quality to it. If you get rid of the Reapers and win that, wouldn’t it be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega? That makes sense.” - Casey Hudson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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360 Magazine (http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/)

There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? - Mike Gamble
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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GameInformer (http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2)

“Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game.

That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.” - Casey Hudson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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PopWatch (http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/)

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.” - Mac Walters
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Financial Post (http://business.fina...-all-audiences/)

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people “ - Mac Walters
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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ComputerAndVideoGames.com (http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/)

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.” - Mike Gamble
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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EuroGamer (http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry)

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens." - Mike Gamble

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.” - Mike Gamble

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make” - Mike Gamble
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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GameInformer (http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx)

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.” - Casey Hudson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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VentureBeat (http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/)

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.” - Casey Hudson

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.” - Casey Hudson

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.” - Casey Hudson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Now Gamer (http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html)

"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a totally different way of playing" - Mike Gamble
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Games Catalyst (http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/)

“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.” - Casey Hudson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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ComputerAndVideoGames.com (http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2)

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.” - Casey Hudson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Penny Arcade (http://penny-arcade....ing-a-trilogy-a)

“I just finished an end to end playthrough, for me the ending was the most satisfying of any game I’ve ever played….the decisions you make in this game are epic,” - Ray Muzyka

“The team has been planning for this for years, since the beginning of the Mass Effect franchise. Largely the same team, most of the same leads have worked on this for years and years. They’ve thought about [the ending] for years and years. It’s not something they’ve had to solve in a week or a month even, but over the course of five or ten years.” - Ray Muzyka

Modifié par Schief724, 03 avril 2012 - 04:41 .


#450
Railarian

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I wouldn't be part of the retake movement if BW didn't promised all these things. Otherwise I would have just put my ME games on a shelf for a long while. I joined the movement because I want to have what was promised. And that is IMO the only irrefutable argument for the movement.

BW don't give us clarifications. That will not fulfill your promises. If you really want to keep the current ending, change the final mission:
http://social.biowar.../index/10708065