612 réponses à ce sujet

[GreenSoda]

This is a thread that should have 2000+ pages of replies. Too bad we didn't come up with this list at the very beginning of the movement where we had a large media coverage. That certainly would have led to less media ****ing about "entitled whiners suing Bioware and threatening artistic integrety"

[Torrible]

There are literally 16 endings. If the variety of the endings falls short of your expectation, it still doesn't constitute a lie by the devs. Your choices matter, just not the way you imagined.

It is entirely possible to live in that Universe after the Citadel and mass relays blow. There has to be a lot of assumptions made about remaining resources and level of destruction in the home systems in order to prove otherwise. Why can't the Quarians leave part of their fleet behind in Rannoch? Why does the citadel have to destroy Earth after it blows? You can scream plot holes when the writers make the 'impossible' happen but right now, you can't claim that particular promise was broken.

And Rachni Queen? Seriously? Is that really an issue? That's like complaining that you received 15 alternate costumes instead of 16.

The only thing that is remotely disputable is the EMS multiplayer issue. I think the max EMS that can be achieved solely in SP is 3800. You need 4000 for the best ending (inclusive of the 2 second breathing scene). I'm lazy to do the math but I think the gap can be bridged with at most 2 Bronze matches. Sure, Bioware's pretty mean to make you play 20 minutes for that 2 second scene you can watch on youtube, but I don't see how it is preferable to waste more than that amount of time complaining on the forums.

Some people just love playing the blame game. I'm not buying the "I only preordered because of the promises" speech one bit. If this is false advertising, then anyone can buy a game, nitpick and then start making demands. If you want to claim false advertising, you'll need more ammunition than that.

I hardly think Bioware is blameless here. They shot themselves in the foot with a few of these comments but this is more puffery than false advertising.

Modifié par Torrible, 03 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[Railarian]

Torrible wrote...

It is entirely possible to live in that Universe after the Citadel and mass relays blow. There has to be a lot of speculations made about remaining resources and level of destruction in the home systems in order to prove otherwise. Why can't the Quarians leave part of their fleet behind in Rannoch? Why does the citadel have to destroy Earth after it blows? You can scream plot holes when the writers make them happen but right now, you can't claim that particular promise was broken.

We should neither have to SPECULATE nor to buy DLC to make these advertisments true. Everything should be in the game.

[Sentr0]

up

[Sentr0]

how about buying the ad space in front of bioware base, and putting those quotes there?

Modifié par Sentr0, 03 avril 2012 - 06:17 .

[Torrible]

Railarian wrote...

Torrible wrote...

It is entirely possible to live in that Universe after the Citadel and mass relays blow. There has to be a lot of speculations made about remaining resources and level of destruction in the home systems in order to prove otherwise. Why can't the Quarians leave part of their fleet behind in Rannoch? Why does the citadel have to destroy Earth after it blows? You can scream plot holes when the writers make them happen but right now, you can't claim that particular promise was broken.

We should neither have to SPECULATE nor to buy DLC to make these advertisments true. Everything should be in the game.

That's a different matter altogether. Say in another game, the devs promised that your character would survive the final mission. When you actually play that mission, you are left with a cliffhanger that leaves the fate of your character hanging. You are right to be pissed about it but you can't say the devs lied. Yes, you should have been able to experience that in-game, and maybe the devs were economical with the truth, but that's a different thing from saying the devs blatantly lied.

Modifié par Torrible, 03 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[Shepard Wins]

Thomas Abram wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

You know, it won't be long before this thread gets locked. Bioware has gone on a locking spree, closing down threads that point out their mistakes.

So... yeah.

You clearly read all of the posts in this thread including the second one informing people to keep on topic, civil and to further the thread so it doesn't get locked. Woops!

Fair enough. Threads that become uncivil or offtopic become closed. That's everything in it's proper place. Funny, however, how there's plenty of threads filled with offtopic posts themed "Space Magic/Marauder Shields/RGB etc." and they are being left alone. Threads with titles like this one are being watched more closely, there are more warnings from the mods etc.

Just food for thought.

[Schief724]

Torrible wrote...

Railarian wrote...

Torrible wrote...

It is entirely possible to live in that Universe after the Citadel and mass relays blow. There has to be a lot of speculations made about remaining resources and level of destruction in the home systems in order to prove otherwise. Why can't the Quarians leave part of their fleet behind in Rannoch? Why does the citadel have to destroy Earth after it blows? You can scream plot holes when the writers make them happen but right now, you can't claim that particular promise was broken.

We should neither have to SPECULATE nor to buy DLC to make these advertisments true. Everything should be in the game.

That's a different matter altogether. Say in another game, the devs promised that your character would survive the final mission. When you actually play that mission, you are left with a cliffhanger that leaves the fate of your character hanging. You are right to be pissed about it but you can't say the devs lied. Yes, you should have been able to experience that in-game, and maybe the devs were economical with the truth, but that's a different thing from saying the devs blatantly lied.

If the devs promised your character would survive and they don't show him surviving, then that's a lie. I'm sorry but I don't care how you cut it.

[Railarian]

I agree with you, in the situation you describe that is not an outright lie (nor a fullfillment).

I'm just gonna quote what Schief posted on the last page. 

Schief724 wrote...

I'm sorry, but you are 100% wrong. There are some boldfaced lies that they said, along with gross exaggerations. For example...

“In Mass Effect 3, you know you need to take back Earth, but the path to victory is less clear at the outset. You won’t just find some long-lost Reaper “off” button," - Casey Hudson

- Lie. The Crucible is the "off" button, and you find that out at the outset of the game.

“Don’t expect to win the loyalty of the galaxy by simply completing a series of fetch quests” - Casey Hudson

- Lie. The whole game is pretty much a series of fetch quests to sate the desires of each race before they help you. Not every quest, but a lot of them.

“… part of what you’re trying to do is save the universe so you can live in it. That’s part of the promise, I think, for any great IP. It has to be a world worth saving… I think Mass Effect has that quality to it. If you get rid of the Reapers and win that, wouldn’t it be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega? That makes sense.” - Casey Hudson

- Lie. The Citadel is destroyed, as well as all mass relays. There is no way you could ever live in this universe after the end of the game.

There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? - Mike Gamble

- Lie. Everybody gets the same ending, with only color and tiny parts differing. Also everybody sees the Normandy crash land on a tropical planet, and the stargazer scene at the end. None of your war assets were ever shown to make any visual difference.

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.” - Casey Hudson

- Lie. A (Blue), B (Green), C (Red). I don't need to say more. No variety, no sophistication. Plenty of speculation.

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.” - Mac Walters

- Lie. They have no influcence in the final battle. Just like none of the other races because you don't actually see your war assets doing anything. Plus it doesn't matter if you saved or killed the Rachni. They are still in the game in some form either way.

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.” - Mike Gamble

- So what's all of this about "artistic integrity" now? Gross exaggeration.

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make” - Mike Gamble

- Lie. There was no closure. We didn't see our decisions make any difference in the end because everybody and every race we cared about are screwed no matter what. Even to the point of what we did in THIS GAME made no difference. Relays destroyed, people stranded.

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.” - Casey Hudson

- Really? Gross exaggeration. The endings are anything but "great" and provide "some closure." We didn't get any of that.

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.” - Casey Hudson

- "Co-creators with the fans." What an interesting quote. What's this about "artistic integrity" now?

“The whole idea of Mass Effect 3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.” - Casey Hudson

- Lie. Every civilization is screwed, and we never actually find out which ones live or die because we are forced to "speculate."

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.” - Casey Hudson

- Lie. There were no large decisions as you approaced the end-game. Every decision leads to basically the same thing. There were no layers, no choices, and it was never different for everyone who played it.

[Torrible]

I've made my point. I can't stop anyone from still feeling pissed about this.

[leapingmonkeys]

Torrible wrote...

There are literally 16 endings. If the variety of the endings falls short of your expectation, it still doesn't constitute a lie by the devs. Your choices matter, just not the way you imagined.

It is entirely possible to live in that Universe after the Citadel and mass relays blow. There has to be a lot of assumptions made about remaining resources and level of destruction in the home systems in order to prove otherwise. Why can't the Quarians leave part of their fleet behind in Rannoch? Why does the citadel have to destroy Earth after it blows? You can scream plot holes when the writers make the 'impossible' happen but right now, you can't claim that particular promise was broken.

And Rachni Queen? Seriously? Is that really an issue? That's like complaining that you received 15 alternate costumes instead of 16.

The only thing that is remotely disputable is the EMS multiplayer issue. I think the max EMS that can be achieved solely in SP is 3800. You need 4000 for the best ending (inclusive of the 2 second breathing scene). I'm lazy to do the math but I think the gap can be bridged with at most 2 Bronze matches. Sure, Bioware's pretty mean to make you play 20 minutes for that 2 second scene you can watch on youtube, but I don't see how it is preferable to waste more than that amount of time complaining on the forums.

Some people just love playing the blame game. I'm not buying the "I only preordered because of the promises" speech one bit. If this is false advertising, then anyone can buy a game, nitpick and then start making demands. If you want to claim false advertising, you'll need more ammunition than that.

I hardly think Bioware is blameless here. They shot themselves in the foot with a few of these comments but this is more puffery than false advertising.

No, there are not.  There are, at most, 6 endings.  The final state tables may have 16 entries, but they map through only 6 possible outcomes.  Of those 6, ignoring the color of the explosion, there are really only 2, maybe 3, outcomes.  One is everything is destroyed.  One seems to be "earth is partially destroyed" - I'm not sure what that is.  The rest are Reapers are dealt with, mass relays are destroyed, the normandy is stranded - and they all give the same final cut-scenes that end with the "Stargazer and kid 10,000 years in the future".

So no, there are only at best 3 endings.

[Schief724]

Torrible wrote...

I've made my point. I can't stop anyone from still feeling pissed about this.

I'm not really pissed. Not anymore at least. The fact remains that they either blatantly lied about certain aspects of the game, or were extremely misleading. Neither is acceptable. That's why I understand why people are pissed (as was I after I beat the game).

You can't say what they said, to the degree that they said it (the volume of misleading and lying quotes is huge), and just simply expect people to take it.

If you like the ending, then fine, but if you disagree with the things they lied about, then I don't know what to tell you. I'll just know not to listen to any of your future posts on the matter.

Modifié par Schief724, 03 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Schief724]

double post

Modifié par Schief724, 03 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Torrible]

Schief724 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

I've made my point. I can't stop anyone from still feeling pissed about this.

I'm not really pissed. Not anymore at least. The fact remains that they either blatantly lied about certain aspects of the game, or were extremely misleading. Neither is acceptable. That's why I understand why people are pissed (as was I after I beat the game).

You can't say what they said, to the degree that they said it (the volume of misleading and lying quotes is huge), and just simply expect people to take it.

If you like the ending, then fine, but if you disagree with the things they lied about, then I don't know what to tell you. I'll just know not to listen to any of your future posts on the matter.

I don't think people should just take it and I wish Bioware would publicly address these issues. I just think that people are blowing things out of proportion when emotions are already high and a little perspective is needed. If the ending had closure and was well executed (assuming with the same degree of choice and variety), people wouldn't be as pedantic about this. 

Modifié par Torrible, 03 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[Liber320]

leapingmonkeys wrote...

Torrible wrote...

There are literally 16 endings. If the variety of the endings falls short of your expectation, it still doesn't constitute a lie by the devs. Your choices matter, just not the way you imagined.

It is entirely possible to live in that Universe after the Citadel and mass relays blow. There has to be a lot of assumptions made about remaining resources and level of destruction in the home systems in order to prove otherwise. Why can't the Quarians leave part of their fleet behind in Rannoch? Why does the citadel have to destroy Earth after it blows? You can scream plot holes when the writers make the 'impossible' happen but right now, you can't claim that particular promise was broken.

And Rachni Queen? Seriously? Is that really an issue? That's like complaining that you received 15 alternate costumes instead of 16.

The only thing that is remotely disputable is the EMS multiplayer issue. I think the max EMS that can be achieved solely in SP is 3800. You need 4000 for the best ending (inclusive of the 2 second breathing scene). I'm lazy to do the math but I think the gap can be bridged with at most 2 Bronze matches. Sure, Bioware's pretty mean to make you play 20 minutes for that 2 second scene you can watch on youtube, but I don't see how it is preferable to waste more than that amount of time complaining on the forums.

Some people just love playing the blame game. I'm not buying the "I only preordered because of the promises" speech one bit. If this is false advertising, then anyone can buy a game, nitpick and then start making demands. If you want to claim false advertising, you'll need more ammunition than that.

I hardly think Bioware is blameless here. They shot themselves in the foot with a few of these comments but this is more puffery than false advertising.

No, there are not.  There are, at most, 6 endings.  The final state tables may have 16 entries, but they map through only 6 possible outcomes.  Of those 6, ignoring the color of the explosion, there are really only 2, maybe 3, outcomes.  One is everything is destroyed.  One seems to be "earth is partially destroyed" - I'm not sure what that is.  The rest are Reapers are dealt with, mass relays are destroyed, the normandy is stranded - and they all give the same final cut-scenes that end with the "Stargazer and kid 10,000 years in the future".

So no, there are only at best 3 endings.

This.

There is a youtube video that plays all 6 endings simultaniously and shows how little they all differ from each other.

They made promises they couldn't keep pre-gold, which happens a lot and while it is not ideal, it is understandable. The problem is that they continued to make these promises post-gold. If that doesn't constitute flase advertising, it comes pretty damn close.

[Railarian]

Modifié par Railarian, 03 avril 2012 - 06:52 .

[Schief724]

Torrible wrote...
I don't think people should just take it and I wish Bioware would publicly address these issues. I just think that people are blowing things out of proportion when emotions are already high and a little perspective is needed. If the ending had closure and was well executed (assuming with the same degree of choice and variety), people wouldn't be as pedantic about this. 

Maybe, and maybe not. Unfortunately that's not the reality we are living in.

[jimmyw404]

Thomas Abram wrote...

We have locked a handful of threads on this subject due to them getting out of hand. Please keep this civil, constructive and on topic to avoid the samething happening here.

aka "I'm pre-warning because I've been instructed to hide the evidence at the slightest bump of the rules I can find"

[ragnorok87]

Johnnycide wrote...

A pity, the last one got closed, you made very good points. The only reason I preordered my Mass Effect 3 instead of just waiting to purchase it was because I was incentivized by those promises.

<
yeah i preordered it too i will never buy a bioware game again if the endings are not fixed

[Zhuinden]

Thomas Abram wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

You know, it won't be long before this thread gets locked. Bioware has gone on a locking spree, closing down threads that point out their mistakes.

So... yeah.

You clearly read all of the posts in this thread including the second one informing people to keep on topic, civil and to further the thread so it doesn't get locked. Woops!

I'm sort of curious why we're just allowed to "rage ourselves out until exhaustion" and we get multiple posts and warnings on keeping the uproar civil; but no one actually posted a reply or answer to the situation and inquiry on the subject itself? :/

I mean, if Bioware is paying attention, then they could have done something instead of just waiting for us to get bored of our own voices, or so. (Apart from the obvious fact that both acknowledging and denying is a bad choice, and apparently the plans pretty much specify that the game won't be fixed so they can't make "promises" on that either.)

[WDGrainger]

Here's the bottom line: I shelled out $80 and got half a loaf. Or half a load, depending on who you ask. I finally, almost reluctantly, finished a playthrough. My initial impressions were confirmed: that Bioware ran out of time, money and ideas on this project. Seen as a whole, that impression now extends to the entirety of ME3, not merely the ending. "Good enough" triumphed over the great. And greatness is what I thought I was paying for. Re-playability is a dead letter. Why bother?

The irony is that they actually had more material, but chose to leave it out. They could have left us with an ending that really played to our sense of wonder. The endings did actually make sense; but their stories were not properly told. As a long-time reader of science fiction, I could more or less see what Bioware was trying - but failed - to do.

Getting back to the heart of the matter - and that's the sense of wonder. This is what makes for truly great science fiction. The fact that this is an interactive video game doesn't let Bioware off the literary hook. Achieving that sense of wonder is what separates epic work from schlock. If you want examples of what I'm talking about, consider almost anything by Iain M. Banks: any of his "Culture" novels and "Against A Dark Background". David Brin's series culminating in "Sailing Bright Eternity" and his Uplift works. For sheer, unhinged, jaw-dropping action and concepts, David J. Williams' "Autumn Rain" trilogy (should be a movie, really. The powered suits make Iron Man look like tinker toys). Jack McDevitt's "Chindi" is haunting in way I can't adequately describe; his "The Engines of God" is a real mind-blower. Look - there's no lack of Big Ideas, Big Stories or inspiration out there. Bioware had and still has a virtually inexhaustible well from which to draw.

Let's see them do it.

I forgot to mention another great author, L. E. Modesitt, Jr.  Check out his "The Eternity Artifact" for another piece of work whose ending contains not only some great action, but also a mind-blowing reveal that truly taps that sense of wonder.

Modifié par WDGrainger, 03 avril 2012 - 08:22 .

[Fulgrim88]

Never hurts to bump this one

[Plank44]

Maybe they WANTED to do all those things they promised, but ran out of time/resources/money or what ever, rushed it and released the game.

[Shared]

What i react most about is the "A,B,C" ending statement. When you see what you get (except different damage on Big ben). Thats what you get in the end. This to me feels like a straight out lie. I mean sure if they mean the entire game is an ending (which seems odd since its designed for "new players" which means this game has an ending as well, even though the game itself is an end also). I just can't understand how they did not see the contradiction in how the game ended and what was promised in this statement.

There is also the bit about the rachni, it made almost no difference. but i suspect the entire end sequence did not end upp as they wanted, in fact i belive the game could have used a whole year more in development for the end sequence. Make the war assets important, and make an impact. Maybe be implemented in gameplay (call your reinforcements in DA:O style) only much grander. I think the game would have benefitted greatly from this, although i liked the ending cycle regardless, it could have been SOOOO much more ( i still detest the ACTUAL ending, just no the end gameplay battle thing in london). Man if i was a billinare i would buy bioware and give them the time to perfect their games. Because the universes they create are epic.

[JohnnyG]

Plank44 wrote...

Maybe they WANTED to do all those things they promised, but ran out of time/resources/money or what ever, rushed it and released the game.

That is sort-of fine for all the pre-gold quotes (though some of those came awfully close to the game going gold), but there is no excuse for the ones that came after the game went gold and the games content was locked in.