259 réponses à ce sujet

[Kloborgg711]

Tehzim wrote...

Don't forget Ash talks about God and Heaven in the first game, so she is just being true to her character. Just because your Shep isn't religious doesn't mean the other characters have to agree. That's what makes ME unique.

I agree, characters that are established as religious should continue being religious. That said, as an atheist I will admit Shepard's line about "putting in a good word for us" did strike me as odd. Mainly because my Shepard (basically my personality) just wouldn't say things like that. It wasn't a big thing, but it's one of those slightly surprising side effects of putting in more auto-dialogue.

[Pelle6666]

Don't really have a problem with the stuff you mentioned. I am more bothered by the fact that they made Shepard die on the cross (crucible) to bring "salvation" to the galaxy. Just because the Catalyst (god?) demanded it. Also don't like that they call him "the shepherd" in the epilog, that's just pathetic.
I don't have any problem with other parallels, such as the Lazarus project for example. Sure, they brought Shepard back to life but they are really overplaying the Jesus-thing a bit in ME3.

[Captain_Obvious]

Atheist here as well. I considered it a figure of speech rather than a statement of faith when it was presented in the game. Seemed appropriate.

[Ozzelll]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Militarized wrote...

I'm an Atheist and I don't really say that stuff except as a metaphor like.. go to hell = screw you. I never say "Oh maybe he's looking down at us from a better place" .....yeah, I'm sure that's what he's doing, enjoying his time in the Celestial North Korea by staring at everyone like some creepy stalker from above.

I was more then a little miffed that I couldn't say I didn't believe that, or at least say it was a nice sentiment but I don't believe that. In Mass Effect 1 you can tell Ashley she is strange for believing in God.

The more I think about it, the end game really fits into the bleak apocalyptic story of bad mythology that's the Bible and seemed to get away from a lot of the Secular stuff that were in 1 and 2... lots of mentioning of afterlife and stuff in ME3.

Maybe ME3 did more then ruin the series with just the ending.... sigh.

Well, I hope we can be civil about this but I am just curious. What would be reason to consider organic life worth anything or even worth saving? Wouldn't it just be a socially constructed view of what needs to be done? To me it would feel less satisfying to go one a journey to satisfy a social construct which really seems to cause my character a lot of pain anyway.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to just escape on board my Normandy and keep running or hide? Or just enjoy life my-self and do the things I wanna do the most and just get owned by the Reapers?

Again, not to be confrontational, just wondering why you thought saving the galaxy was what you should do.

Because other people's and beings lives matter?

If I do good, and help others it is because I have empathy, and want for others to thrive and generally not have a ****ty time.

I don't do it out of fear of a supernatural being punishing me, or hoping for an eternal reward. I do it because for my own moral system, it is the right thing to do.

The fact that morality is a social construct does not detract from it. And even then you can talk with people like Sam Harris that would argue for an objective morality form a biological point of view, not dictated by any sort of supreme being.

No what I meant was that if there is really no 'value' to life other than something we socially constructed, there is no sense in really trying to protect it, right?

Here I don't mean supernatural punishment but more so the existence of a supernatural 'order' of things. So in this case, it would have to be a supernatural reality that life is valuable. It can't be something we only came to know naturally because then it would just be evolution or just a sociological construct.

Like if I told you, you have to give your life to save some Jam bottles from being recycled, would you consider it worth dying for? If everyone around you said that those Jam bottles are a life form too, would you be willing to die for it?

I don't see why there has to be a "supernatural creator" in order to give purpose to organic life.
Religion itself is a social construct, yet people fight over it.

It's also important for evolution that humans try to defend their genes. This can be extended to all organic life in your mind, easily.
In the end the most important factor is emotion. I wan't to fight to save the people I know, first and foremost, simply because I love or respect them.

[Jjacobclark]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

I guess it would have been nice to make "my" Shepard's lack of religion known. Seems like there was alot of more of Liara gasping and making appeals to the "Goddess" and turians referencing "the spirits". I guess I kinda figured a 109 year old individual and PhD would have shed any religious beliefs long ago.

Yeah thats why people who have studied Aristotle and Plato for decades are all athiests.

[SolidisusSnake1]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

I'm an atheist but I still make references to heaven and hell and God and whatnot. Just because I stopped believing in the supernatural and deities it doesn't mean I have to stop using common colloquial expressions that everyone understands the meaning of.

What he said, even Garrus was referring to heaven in a sort of "wouldnt it be nice way" he didnt actually think he would be in a bar floating in the sky.

And "by the Goddess" is a common Asari expression it's the same thing as "Oh my God", just because someone says a common coloquial expression doesnt mean they believe in any sort of religon.

Modifié par SolidisusSnake1, 22 mars 2012 - 10:32 .

[Pottumuusi]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

But I am just a bit curious about something more you said about there only being one life. Why would this one life be valuable though? Wouldn't that it-self just be a social paradigm?

It is valuable because it is all I have, and I would not have it any other way.
Really, if we lived forever would there be any reason to do things, and would our accomplishements matter since anyone could perform any feat given an infinite amount of time.

[Apathy1989]

I'm religious so didn't bother me, but I can understand peoples distaste for it, or moreso the lack of choice in the matter.

Have to admit though, conversations are alot more interesting if you can use the metaphors and phrases inherited from religion. For a writer, you can call upon the audiences experiences and associations easily.

[Yttrian]

Americans like and are often consumer of corporate religion.

Including it in the ME SciFi seems to be trying to say that religion still exists in 200 years in a similar fashion to today.

[Vigil_N7]

There's nothing wrong with it in all honestly. It adds a little bit of depth and further lore in the ME universe, its no surprise that people in the galaxy believe in some sort of deity.

I liked that Ashley talked about her faith, it wasn't much but it set her out from some of the other characters. I was disappointed bioware didn't expand upon her beliefs a bit more in ME3.

Still, Ashley is my kind of christian - one that has no qualms about casual sex before marriage!

[SimKoning]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Well think about it, if there was no real after life, no God etc, then everything was just temporary mistakes or self-created rules anyway. Importance of organic life, chance to determine their own faith would just be made up constructs, importance of any life in general would all just be constructs. There is really no 'saving' the galaxy. It would also just be a made up construct.

So maybe someone at Bioware who was deep in to philosophy and stuff decided to include such things to make sure the story was not a complete sham.

Not believing in a God does not mean one must subscribe to nihilism or moral relativism. What you are arguing is akin to claiming that if there is no God, then there would be no point in stopping  Hitler during WW2, which I find to be completely absurd.

Modifié par SimKoning, 22 mars 2012 - 10:33 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

Jjacobclark wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

I guess it would have been nice to make "my" Shepard's lack of religion known. Seems like there was alot of more of Liara gasping and making appeals to the "Goddess" and turians referencing "the spirits". I guess I kinda figured a 109 year old individual and PhD would have shed any religious beliefs long ago.

Yeah thats why people who have studied Aristotle and Plato for decades are all athiests.

What?

[ninjaNumber1]

Pottumuusi wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Militarized wrote...

I'm an Atheist and I don't really say that stuff except as a metaphor like.. go to hell = screw you. I never say "Oh maybe he's looking down at us from a better place" .....yeah, I'm sure that's what he's doing, enjoying his time in the Celestial North Korea by staring at everyone like some creepy stalker from above.

I was more then a little miffed that I couldn't say I didn't believe that, or at least say it was a nice sentiment but I don't believe that. In Mass Effect 1 you can tell Ashley she is strange for believing in God.

The more I think about it, the end game really fits into the bleak apocalyptic story of bad mythology that's the Bible and seemed to get away from a lot of the Secular stuff that were in 1 and 2... lots of mentioning of afterlife and stuff in ME3.

Maybe ME3 did more then ruin the series with just the ending.... sigh.

Well, I hope we can be civil about this but I am just curious. What would be reason to consider organic life worth anything or even worth saving? Wouldn't it just be a socially constructed view of what needs to be done? To me it would feel less satisfying to go one a journey to satisfy a social construct which really seems to cause my character a lot of pain anyway.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to just escape on board my Normandy and keep running or hide? Or just enjoy life my-self and do the things I wanna do the most and just get owned by the Reapers?

Again, not to be confrontational, just wondering why you thought saving the galaxy was what you should do.

Why do you think organic life is worthless if it isn't eternally ruled over by a celestial tyrant?

I wouldn't run so I could look at myself in the mirror when I die and say to myself "I like you."
That last moment of knowing that I wasn't a coward and that I faced my end with dignity would well be worth dying for. There are worse things than death after all(unless god exists, eternal life would arguably be the worst torture that can be inflicted upon a sentient being.)
These might be subjective values without a god(I don't think a god would make anything objective though, look up Euthyphro dilemma) but that doesn't make them any less meaningful to me.

That wasn't meant to sound assholish but it probably did anyway.

Thanks for your insight as well.

I have read up on the Euthyphro Dilemma. But the monotheistic God concept of Judaism/Islam/Christianity tends to not be affected by this dilemma as far as I understand.

That being said, I am not saying you should believe in a God. I am just curious as to why would you labor on something that doesn't probably exist like the 'value of life'.

Do you mean to say that you suffered to protect and save the galaxy because it was just something you thought would be how you would act? Because if that is the case, then there surely isn't any real value in that, right? Then it would be like you catering to the masses because they seem to think if you do something like that, you are great, no?

[Archontor]

Tehzim wrote...

Don't forget Ash talks about God and Heaven in the first game, so she is just being true to her character. Just because your Shep isn't religious doesn't mean the other characters have to agree. That's what makes ME unique.

Well when he said about Mordin's place it no one was talking about an afterlife, it was precisely that which made so odd, I too joined Thane's prayer because he wanted me too and because doing nothing would be rude, but when there's no pressure to do so it seems like a genuine belief which I find odd. 

[Militarized]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Thanks!  I understand your position better now.

But I am just a bit curious about something more you said about there only being one life. Why would this one life be valuable though? Wouldn't that it-self just be a social paradigm?

YW You may ask away lol. I wouldn't say so, I put value on my own life because I.. you know.. value my continued existance. I'd rather not be snuffed out and be devoid of experiencing what I can, while I can. I put this same emphasis on other people, the broader term for it is empathy. It's also obvious that through cooperation and bettering ourselves as a whole, as a species, our standard of living, understanding, etc, etc goes up and up. 

Throughout history the worst atrocities are commited by people that devalue human life, they seperate into other people not being really human. We, as a species, need to stand together. If I try to do that by myself by just placing the value I see of my own life on just my life... that all falls apart and my inherent value with fall away with that. 

[Pottumuusi]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Jjacobclark wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

I guess it would have been nice to make "my" Shepard's lack of religion known. Seems like there was alot of more of Liara gasping and making appeals to the "Goddess" and turians referencing "the spirits". I guess I kinda figured a 109 year old individual and PhD would have shed any religious beliefs long ago.

Yeah thats why people who have studied Aristotle and Plato for decades are all athiests.

What?

Plato and Aristotle are philosophers so their opinions are largely worthless.
They should admit they know nothing like Socrates did.

[Avatar231278]

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Just because I am an atheist, doesn't mean I don't believe in any form of afterlife. It maybe differs quite a bit from the beliefs of religious people, but just because there is no god, does not mean, that the very essence of being a being gets lost, when you die. It would contradict the second law of thermodynamics.

[Captain_Obvious]

SimKoning wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Well think about it, if there was no real after life, no God etc, then everything was just temporary mistakes or self-created rules anyway. Importance of organic life, chance to determine their own faith would just be made up constructs, importance of any life in general would all just be constructs. There is really no 'saving' the galaxy. It would also just be a made up construct.

So maybe someone at Bioware who was deep in to philosophy and stuff decided to include such things to make sure the story was not a complete sham.

Not believing in a God does not mean one must subscribe to nihilism or moral relativism. What you are arguing is akin to claiming that if there is no God, then there would be no point in stopping  Hitler during WW2, which I find to be completely absurd.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath, back away from Godwin's Law, and discuss this in relation to the game or the Woo will be in here and fun talking time will be over. 

[FreshRevenge]

People use God in times of despair as a mean of reassurance that things will be better. As an Atheist myself I can see why people would resort to such a concept in times of hardship. Now the point is rather this God is real since no one seems to have any proof of it, other than anecdotal comments. This kinda of bummed me out toward the ending with the StarChild, because Mass Effect has been rather ingenious with their scientific concepts with the universe and the Mass relays but at the end they throw some space magic, like your pink unicorns theories to justify what was going on the whole time?

[knightnblu]

When you find an atheist in a foxhole, let me know.

[ninjaNumber1]

SimKoning wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Well think about it, if there was no real after life, no God etc, then everything was just temporary mistakes or self-created rules anyway. Importance of organic life, chance to determine their own faith would just be made up constructs, importance of any life in general would all just be constructs. There is really no 'saving' the galaxy. It would also just be a made up construct.

So maybe someone at Bioware who was deep in to philosophy and stuff decided to include such things to make sure the story was not a complete sham.

Not believing in a God does not mean one must subscribe to nihilism or moral relativism. What you are arguing is akin to claiming that if there is no God, then there would be no point in stopping  Hitler during WW2, which I find to be completely absurd.

I guess that does follow too from what I said. But without a God or supernatural rules of the Universe, why is there any reason to believe that life is valuable though?

I will be honest, the reason I believe life is valuable is because of religion. But if I were to go by just observation, it seems like just a random collection of matter that came to be through a evolutionary process. There doesn't seem to be any actual importance, no? There is also the 'feeling' I get that it is of importance, but that is also probably a evolutionary construct. So yea, I am not sure why there would be any real reason....?

[Archontor]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Militarized wrote...

I'm an Atheist and I don't really say that stuff except as a metaphor like.. go to hell = screw you. I never say "Oh maybe he's looking down at us from a better place" .....yeah, I'm sure that's what he's doing, enjoying his time in the Celestial North Korea by staring at everyone like some creepy stalker from above.

I was more then a little miffed that I couldn't say I didn't believe that, or at least say it was a nice sentiment but I don't believe that. In Mass Effect 1 you can tell Ashley she is strange for believing in God.

The more I think about it, the end game really fits into the bleak apocalyptic story of bad mythology that's the Bible and seemed to get away from a lot of the Secular stuff that were in 1 and 2... lots of mentioning of afterlife and stuff in ME3.

Maybe ME3 did more then ruin the series with just the ending.... sigh.

Well, I hope we can be civil about this but I am just curious. What would be reason to consider organic life worth anything or even worth saving? Wouldn't it just be a socially constructed view of what needs to be done? To me it would feel less satisfying to go one a journey to satisfy a social construct which really seems to cause my character a lot of pain anyway.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to just escape on board my Normandy and keep running or hide? Or just enjoy life my-self and do the things I wanna do the most and just get owned by the Reapers?

Again, not to be confrontational, just wondering why you thought saving the galaxy was what you should do.

Why do you think organic life is worthless if it isn't eternally ruled over by a celestial tyrant?

I wouldn't run so I could look at myself in the mirror when I die and say to myself "I like you."
That last moment of knowing that I wasn't a coward and that I faced my end with dignity would well be worth dying for. There are worse things than death after all(unless god exists, eternal life would arguably be the worst torture that can be inflicted upon a sentient being.)
These might be subjective values without a god(I don't think a god would make anything objective though, look up Euthyphro dilemma) but that doesn't make them any less meaningful to me.

That wasn't meant to sound assholish but it probably did anyway.

Thanks for your insight as well.

I have read up on the Euthyphro Dilemma. But the monotheistic God concept of Judaism/Islam/Christianity tends to not be affected by this dilemma as far as I understand.

That being said, I am not saying you should believe in a God. I am just curious as to why would you labor on something that doesn't probably exist like the 'value of life'.

Do you mean to say that you suffered to protect and save the galaxy because it was just something you thought would be how you would act? Because if that is the case, then there surely isn't any real value in that, right? Then it would be like you catering to the masses because they seem to think if you do something like that, you are great, no?

I would stop them to prevent suffering and death. That is it. To be honest the fact that it won't be sorted out after death would be more of a motivation to ensure that the breif time we (and espescially the salarians) experience isn't going to end as genetic paste.

[ninjaNumber1]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Well think about it, if there was no real after life, no God etc, then everything was just temporary mistakes or self-created rules anyway. Importance of organic life, chance to determine their own faith would just be made up constructs, importance of any life in general would all just be constructs. There is really no 'saving' the galaxy. It would also just be a made up construct.

So maybe someone at Bioware who was deep in to philosophy and stuff decided to include such things to make sure the story was not a complete sham.

Not believing in a God does not mean one must subscribe to nihilism or moral relativism. What you are arguing is akin to claiming that if there is no God, then there would be no point in stopping  Hitler during WW2, which I find to be completely absurd.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath, back away from Godwin's Law, and discuss this in relation to the game or the Woo will be in here and fun talking time will be over. 

lol yea very true. Sorry if I sidetracked this thread. Interesting discussion though.

[GoblinSapper]

Turians believe that groups and areas have "spirits" that transcend the individual. For example, a military unit would be considered to have a literal spirit that embodies the honor and courage it has displayed. A city's spirit reflects the accomplishments and industry of its residents. An ancient tree's spirit reflects the beauty and tranquility of the area it grows within.
These spirits are neither good nor evil, nor are they appealed to for intercession. Turians do not believe spirits can affect the world, but spirits can inspire the living. Prayers and rituals allow an individual to converse with a spirit for guidance or inspiration. For example, a turian who finds his loyalty tested may appeal to the spirit of his unit, hoping to reconnect with the pride and honor of the group. A turian who wishes to create a work of art may attempt to connect with the spirit of a beautiful location.

Turians enjoy absolute freedom of religion and can practice whatever appeals to them so long as it does not impede anyone's ability to perform their duties. There are many practitioners of the asari siarist philosophy. Since opening dialog with the human Systems Alliance, some turians have embraced Confucianism and Zen Buddhism.

In the past, turians believed that titans strode across Palaven, reaching for the heavens. They worshiped these deities and communicated with them at a structure called Temple Palaven. The temple was tended to by a religious order called the Valluvian Priests, who wear special purple robes which obscure their forms. In order for turians to join this order, they had to be considered worthy enough through some action. When the turians spread out from Palaven and discovered other life among the stars, however, they sealed Temple Palaven because they no longer needed legends to prod them upward. With the temple abandoned, eventually the Valluvian Priests fell into legend.

Turian's practice freedom of Religion and many have adapted to human faiths, it's possible he picked something up. It also doesn't mention if/what Turians believe regarding the afterlife, so there may be a Turian heaven.

I would stop them to prevent suffering and death. That is it. To be honest the fact that it won't be sorted out after death would be more of a motivation to ensure that the breif time we (and espescially the salarians) experience isn't going to end as genetic paste. 

Salarians are not notably religious, but as free-willed sentients there are exceptions. One of the less favored salarian religions (which the Council deems a "cult") worships a goddess, and claims that a certain pattern of overlapping craters in the southern hemisphere of Trelyn resembles her. Liara T'Soni comments that many salarians believe in a wheel of life, which Mordin Solus likens to Hinduism due to a shared belief in reincarnation. 

Modifié par GoblinSapper, 22 mars 2012 - 10:40 .