259 réponses à ce sujet

[Pottumuusi]

Avatar231278 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Just because I am an atheist, doesn't mean I don't believe in any form of afterlife. It maybe differs quite a bit from the beliefs of religious people, but just because there is no god, does not mean, that the very essence of being a being gets lost, when you die. It would contradict the second law of thermodynamics.

Excuse me but WTF, in scientific terms, is a "very essence" of a "being"?
Our brains and therefore our counciousnesses are certain configurations of energy. That configuration can easily be destroyed. I have literally no idea what this could possibly have to do with the second law of thermodynamics.
Btw could you tell me what the other laws of thermodynamics are if I asked you?

[Dark_Caduceus]

Avatar231278 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Just because I am an atheist, doesn't mean I don't believe in any form of afterlife. It maybe differs quite a bit from the beliefs of religious people, but just because there is no god, does not mean, that the very essence of being a being gets lost, when you die. It would contradict the second law of thermodynamics.

Well certainly the atoms which composed your body and the energy contained within said atoms doesn't just vanish, but that doesn't mean you retain any measure of awareness after your death.

[Henioo]

On religion in general, I think more often that not the NPCs speak of religion in human terms, i.e. Maelon says to Mordin that "they were playing god" or something among these lines. Sometimes it seems a bit odd when an alien speaks to you like a human would (for example, the asari in ME3 in the hospital refers to a human girl, saying she was only 15 - she should have said, 15 human years or something like that).

I haven't played ME3 with my renegade shepard yet (and am not planning to before any DLC news) so I have no opinion on the autodialogue of Shepard's religion. All I can say that what my paragade Shepard said regarding the issue must have sounded fine, because I don't recall hearing something out of place.

It's just a shame that they have all these fantastic species and cultures, but make those aliens very often just wierd-looking humans.

Modifié par Henioo, 22 mars 2012 - 10:41 .

[anlk92]

As an atheist I thought most of them were fine. The only one that seemed out of place was the "he's putting in a good word for us", but given the amount of auto-dialogue there were many other moments where my Shepard sounded out of character. I found it easy to look past them though.

[ninjaNumber1]

Archontor wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Militarized wrote...

I'm an Atheist and I don't really say that stuff except as a metaphor like.. go to hell = screw you. I never say "Oh maybe he's looking down at us from a better place" .....yeah, I'm sure that's what he's doing, enjoying his time in the Celestial North Korea by staring at everyone like some creepy stalker from above.

I was more then a little miffed that I couldn't say I didn't believe that, or at least say it was a nice sentiment but I don't believe that. In Mass Effect 1 you can tell Ashley she is strange for believing in God.

The more I think about it, the end game really fits into the bleak apocalyptic story of bad mythology that's the Bible and seemed to get away from a lot of the Secular stuff that were in 1 and 2... lots of mentioning of afterlife and stuff in ME3.

Maybe ME3 did more then ruin the series with just the ending.... sigh.

Well, I hope we can be civil about this but I am just curious. What would be reason to consider organic life worth anything or even worth saving? Wouldn't it just be a socially constructed view of what needs to be done? To me it would feel less satisfying to go one a journey to satisfy a social construct which really seems to cause my character a lot of pain anyway.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to just escape on board my Normandy and keep running or hide? Or just enjoy life my-self and do the things I wanna do the most and just get owned by the Reapers?

Again, not to be confrontational, just wondering why you thought saving the galaxy was what you should do.

Why do you think organic life is worthless if it isn't eternally ruled over by a celestial tyrant?

I wouldn't run so I could look at myself in the mirror when I die and say to myself "I like you."
That last moment of knowing that I wasn't a coward and that I faced my end with dignity would well be worth dying for. There are worse things than death after all(unless god exists, eternal life would arguably be the worst torture that can be inflicted upon a sentient being.)
These might be subjective values without a god(I don't think a god would make anything objective though, look up Euthyphro dilemma) but that doesn't make them any less meaningful to me.

That wasn't meant to sound assholish but it probably did anyway.

Thanks for your insight as well.

I have read up on the Euthyphro Dilemma. But the monotheistic God concept of Judaism/Islam/Christianity tends to not be affected by this dilemma as far as I understand.

That being said, I am not saying you should believe in a God. I am just curious as to why would you labor on something that doesn't probably exist like the 'value of life'.

Do you mean to say that you suffered to protect and save the galaxy because it was just something you thought would be how you would act? Because if that is the case, then there surely isn't any real value in that, right? Then it would be like you catering to the masses because they seem to think if you do something like that, you are great, no?

I would stop them to prevent suffering and death. That is it. To be honest the fact that it won't be sorted out after death would be more of a motivation to ensure that the breif time we (and espescially the salarians) experience isn't going to end as genetic paste.

Not to get this thread further derailed, but why do you think limited life time = high value though? I am not sure we can make such judgements if there is no supernatural concept being told that its true. Because if its simply by our own experiences, then it would just be a product of evolution, not anything real.

But yea, I will stop now before Mr. Woo comes in

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 22 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[TLK Spires]

it's just a general reference to some kind of better pastures in some kind of afterlife, stop taking things so literally.

[ericjdev]

I'm neopagan, The old Drell faith was especially interesting to me. Asari religion as well, I used to say 'by the Goddess' in place of 'Oh my God" until Liara totally killed that for me.

[Swisspease]

Avatar231278 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Just because I am an atheist, doesn't mean I don't believe in any form of afterlife. It maybe differs quite a bit from the beliefs of religious people, but just because there is no god, does not mean, that the very essence of being a being gets lost, when you die. It would contradict the second law of thermodynamics.

True. You don't have to be religious to have beliefs

[FreshRevenge]

knightnblu wrote...

When you find an atheist in a foxhole, let me know.

people put themselves in dire situations, why would that different than a person on a yatch in the Bahamas sipping on a martini! The God theory falls flat when you realize that 6 million jewish people prayed to be spared but yet nothing happen?

[Archontor]

knightnblu wrote...

When you find an atheist in a foxhole, let me know.

Well I nearly drowned once, I was focussed on surviving and being incredibly pissed off with myself for getting in the situation, not a foxhole per say but I thought I might die and I didn't start to pray or anything. 

[Pottumuusi]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...
Because if its simply by our own experiences, then it would just be a product of evolution, not anything real.

What do you mean with 'real' in this context.

On eternal life = worst thing ever I refer to my previous post.

[Pottumuusi]

knightnblu wrote...

When you find an atheist in a foxhole, let me know.

I usually don't react strongly to trolls but now I feel like I need to watch something burn.

[Kmead15]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Not to get this thread further derailed, but why do you think limited life time = high value though? I am not sure we can make such judgements if there is no supernatural concept being told that its true. Because if its simply by our own experiences, then it would just be a product of evolution, not anything real.

But yea, I will stop now before Mr. Woo comes in

How does something evolving naturally make it any less real?

On topic, I didn't even notice it when the aliens were talking, but Shepard's autodialogue about it did throw me. However, it didn't seem worse than any other time that Shepard said something I wouldn't have selected.

[Mad-Max90]

Do you guys have to so rude about it? I'm a Christian and I take offense when people talk bad about any religion in such a crude manner, you don't have to make fun of anybody's intelligence based on their faith, it says a lot about your personality, and none of it is positive.

[Avatar231278]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Well certainly the atoms which composed your body and the energy contained within said atoms doesn't just vanish, but that doesn't mean you retain any measure of awareness after your death.

I didn't write anything about awareness. For me an "afterlife" is even if my thoughts create some sort of energy that leaves my body. I don't need a beer-volcano and a stripper-manufactory in the afterlife (though it would be nice).

And regarding the laws of thermodynamics. I meant the first, not the second.

[Archontor]

GoblinSapper wrote...

Turians believe that groups and areas have "spirits" that transcend the individual. For example, a military unit would be considered to have a literal spirit that embodies the honor and courage it has displayed. A city's spirit reflects the accomplishments and industry of its residents. An ancient tree's spirit reflects the beauty and tranquility of the area it grows within.
These spirits are neither good nor evil, nor are they appealed to for intercession. Turians do not believe spirits can affect the world, but spirits can inspire the living. Prayers and rituals allow an individual to converse with a spirit for guidance or inspiration. For example, a turian who finds his loyalty tested may appeal to the spirit of his unit, hoping to reconnect with the pride and honor of the group. A turian who wishes to create a work of art may attempt to connect with the spirit of a beautiful location.

Turians enjoy absolute freedom of religion and can practice whatever appeals to them so long as it does not impede anyone's ability to perform their duties. There are many practitioners of the asari siarist philosophy. Since opening dialog with the human Systems Alliance, some turians have embraced Confucianism and Zen Buddhism.

In the past, turians believed that titans strode across Palaven, reaching for the heavens. They worshiped these deities and communicated with them at a structure called Temple Palaven. The temple was tended to by a religious order called the Valluvian Priests, who wear special purple robes which obscure their forms. In order for turians to join this order, they had to be considered worthy enough through some action. When the turians spread out from Palaven and discovered other life among the stars, however, they sealed Temple Palaven because they no longer needed legends to prod them upward. With the temple abandoned, eventually the Valluvian Priests fell into legend.

Turian's practice freedom of Religion and many have adapted to human faiths, it's possible he picked something up. It also doesn't mention if/what Turians believe regarding the afterlife, so there may be a Turian heaven.

I would stop them to prevent suffering and death. That is it. To be honest the fact that it won't be sorted out after death would be more of a motivation to ensure that the breif time we (and espescially the salarians) experience isn't going to end as genetic paste. 

[color=rgb(255,255,255)">Salarians are not notably religious, but as free-willed sentients there are exceptions. One of the less favored salarian religions (which the Council deems a "cult") worships a goddess, and claims that a certain pattern of overlapping craters in the southern hemisphere of ] resembles her. [/color]Liara T'Soni[color=rgb(255,255,255)"> ] likens to Hinduism due to a shared belief in reincarnation.[/color] 

I just ment that salarians are short lived, I really like to think they have a fun time whilst they're here.

[Venturisection]

The original writer who layed it all out switched to SWTOR and after that they were left to butcher Mass Effect with worthless drivel. Its not a constructive comment so I'll add this - put it back to the way it was supposed to be Dark Energy and Harbinger not Nonsense and who the **** is this.

[Archontor]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Do you guys have to so rude about it? I'm a Christian and I take offense when people talk bad about any religion in such a crude manner, you don't have to make fun of anybody's intelligence based on their faith, it says a lot about your personality, and none of it is positive.

I don't have much against religion, certainly I don't doubt a theists intelligence and plenty of athiests have come to defend the statement.

[Avatar231278]

Venturisection wrote...

The original writer who layed it all out switched to SWTOR and after that they were left to butcher Mass Effect with worthless drivel. Its not a constructive comment so I'll add this - put it back to the way it was supposed to be Dark Energy and Harbinger not Nonsense and who the **** is this.

reading about "dark energy" (I know off-topic), but what about Haestroms Sun from ME2 (Tali's dossier)?

[Risselda]

I have never been to big in religions other than for mythological value, which truly makes each one interesting.

In this sense, I always saw the 'heaven' references to be taken not literally, and to be seen as a 'good bye, you'll always be in my heart.'

Remember too that the entire Asari religion was disproved in about 5 minutes.

Definitely think its the symbolism of the statements.

[Baronesa]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Do you guys have to so rude about it? I'm a Christian and I take offense when people talk bad about any religion in such a crude manner, you don't have to make fun of anybody's intelligence based on their faith, it says a lot about your personality, and none of it is positive.

I'm a theist too, and actually this thread has been really civil.  I haven't seen any bashing.

I have seen only a very healthy debate so far... a few people losing their tempers but controlling it (I know cause I lost mine and refrained from commenting) specially at a couple of fallacies (foxhole atheist and the implied deathbed conversions).

[Pottumuusi]

Avatar231278 wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Well certainly the atoms which composed your body and the energy contained within said atoms doesn't just vanish, but that doesn't mean you retain any measure of awareness after your death.

I didn't write anything about awareness. For me an "afterlife" is even if my thoughts create some sort of energy that leaves my body. I don't need a beer-volcano and a stripper-manufactory in the afterlife (though it would be nice).

And regarding the laws of thermodynamics. I meant the first, not the second.

Can you really call it 'afterlife' if you are not conscoius? Well, not all life in conscoius, like plants for example, I still haven't read any definition of life that includes subatomic particles floating in space.

Still, if you want to believe in this sort of, well, atheistic-soft-panteism I guess, I have no problem with that since you aren't trying to destroy everything that is good in the world as far as I know.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 22 mars 2012 - 10:53 .