259 réponses à ce sujet

[Archontor]

GoblinSapper wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

GoblinSapper wrote...

Stop. Discussing. Real life religion and politics.

Please.

I'll get worried once the conversation actually turns sour.  Until then, I'm enjoying it because good discussions on the topic are rare and valuable while they last. 

People are already accusing each other of being insulting, this is an arguement, a civil one but an arguement. And the OP was a matter reguarding Turian religion! 

Actually the top half was about human (namely Shepard's) religion.

[Subject M]

OP. think of it as either being sincere or just pep-talk directed towards anyone hearing it and being susceptible to it.

[Archontor]

OchreJelly wrote...

I'm offended that you're possibly offended. That is, if you indeed take offense at my offense of your offendedness.

Wait, what...

 

Offended is strong word, at most I was unpleasantly surprised. P.S love the art.

[Apocsapel91]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

I'm an atheist but I still make references to heaven and hell and God and whatnot. Just because I stopped believing in the supernatural and deities it doesn't mean I have to stop using common colloquial expressions that everyone understands the meaning of.

Precisely.  I'm athiest-agnostic and I'll still say, "Oh my god," and "Go to hell."

[Auralius Carolus]

Several things to point out here:

#1. Regardless of active beliefs, religious notions become intertwined with culture and language.
#2. Religion is still in existance, as evident with the Drell, Asari, Hanar and what appears to be Turian spiritualism. There are also hints to the religious beliefs and ceremony within humanity.
#3. During times of great suffering, it is not uncommon for both the religious and non-religious to turn to that which is symbolic of peace beyond the pain of life.

I also don't see why this is so troubling, as there is only one moment in ME3 where religion affects Shepard, and that appears out of respect, not faith. I for one would invite the option of more religious dialogue. You want homosexuality covered? Fine, just don't force it on me. The same can be said for religion.

Mass Effect has always been about fine-tuning your character, and religion is anything but absent in the ME universe.

[Lost Cipher]

Well on the issue of Mordin, his character was supposed to be some what spiritual. This was discovered during his loyalty mission in ME2.

[Qutayba]

The Asari keep referring to a goddess, and certainly Ashley talks about faith in the first game. I certainly don't think Mass Effect is advocating a religious point of view, but to have the characters themselves be thinking about those sorts of things at the "end of the world" is not all that strange. Whether completely true or not, "there are no atheists in foxholes"

EDIT: On another note, many sociologists and anthropologists have discarded the old notion that religion diminishes the more "advanced" or technological a society becomes.  Culture doesn't evolve in a linear fashion.

Modifié par Qutayba, 22 mars 2012 - 11:22 .

[SimKoning]

Aesieru wrote...

tomcplotts wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

Cosmar wrote...

I also think it has to do with the whole end of the world thing. If people believe the end is coming, a lot of them tend to start thinking about that kind of thing more. Death, afterlife, what does it all mean, etc. when you're faced with impending death and loss of everything you know and love...

That's the "No Atheists in Foxholes" argument, which is kind of bull****.

But I can see Shepard just saying these things out of either habit or to comfort others.

I still don't know anyone who was in the military that when they were in severe harms way and thought they might die that didn't say a quick prayer out of hope.

well, now you can say you've met one. nice to meet ya!

And what harm were you nearly in and what your thoughts?

Pat Tillman, the pro football player that ended his career to enlist in the military was an atheist. He was killed by friendly fire, I don't remember any mention of him "saying his prayers". I also have two friends that don't believe in god that were both in the U.S. army. One was in the infantry, and the other is a sniper. 

[Archontor]

Apocsapel91 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

I'm an atheist but I still make references to heaven and hell and God and whatnot. Just because I stopped believing in the supernatural and deities it doesn't mean I have to stop using common colloquial expressions that everyone understands the meaning of.

Precisely.  I'm athiest-agnostic and I'll still say, "Oh my god," and "Go to hell."

 

Yes but this would be more like saying Oh by Zeus in humanity's mostly secular society.

[Alexius]

Apocsapel91 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

I'm an atheist but I still make references to heaven and hell and God and whatnot. Just because I stopped believing in the supernatural and deities it doesn't mean I have to stop using common colloquial expressions that everyone understands the meaning of.

Precisely.  I'm athiest-agnostic and I'll still say, "Oh my god," and "Go to hell."

Exactly. I don't think it's that uncommon for the OP to think it's out of character.

Besides, it's the end of the world. That tends to bring the spiritualism out of people...

[Valo_Soren]

When people are at the end they tend to grasp at whatever can get them through, there are no atheists in fox holes. There's nothing wrong with having respect for religion while not being religious.

[Auralius Carolus]

Qutayba wrote...

EDIT: On another note, many sociologists and anthropologists have discarded the old notion that religion diminishes the more "advanced" or technological a society becomes.  Culture doesn't evolve in a linear fashion.

Yep, many of the modern concepts of justice, merit, personal compassion and equality stem from certain religious philosophies.

Modifié par Auralius Carolus, 22 mars 2012 - 11:32 .

[XqctaX]

i dont belive in god, but i also didnt mind that shepard said things like that. i was suppriced about it but thought of it also as something an unreligious man could say in a dire situation...

ussually i hate when religion is forced on a player. becouse forcing religion on someone is just unrespectfull.. didnt have a problem with me3 about it. but would there have been more i would have been upset about it.

[Baronesa]

Valo_Soren wrote...

When people are at the end they tend to grasp at whatever can get them through, there are no atheists in fox holes. There's nothing wrong with having respect for religion while not being religious.

I think this page refutes that claim.

http://militaryathei...org/expaif.html



Now, on another note, I was interested in knowing more about Volus and Elcor beliefs systems, I don't think we saw much of them. It seemed that they had a society more based on philosofy rather than on religious views. Anyone know more about those 2 societies?

[Baronesa]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

It just occurred to me that a lot of the fetch quests had you getting some religious/cultural object for the various secondary races as a means of securing their loyalty. That's kind of interesting.

Yes, The Elcor mention the knowledge of the ancients... it reminded me a bit of Dragon Age dwarves... Maybe they follow the teaching of ancient Elcor instead of another form of religion?

Volus seems to base their views on philosofical texts, rather than on religious views... That was another interesting touch

[Heathen Pride]

Baronesa wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...

When people are at the end they tend to grasp at whatever can get them through, there are no atheists in fox holes. There's nothing wrong with having respect for religion while not being religious.

I think this page refutes that claim.

http://militaryathei...org/expaif.html



Now, on another note, I was interested in knowing more about Volus and Elcor beliefs systems, I don't think we saw much of them. It seemed that they had a society more based on philosofy rather than on religious views. Anyone know more about those 2 societies?

Wonder how many of these atheist soldiers hope for something beyond while they're bleeding out.

[darkiddd]

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Because when the universe is ending you have to find hope in anything. Not that this is bad. And because when you believe in something you become stronger. This is also true with atheism, if you believe that you don't believe in a deity or another life because you think they don't exist then you will act accordingly. Unfortunately atheism is not a good motivator when you risk death while you are fighting for something.

[Pottumuusi]

Heathen Pride wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...

When people are at the end they tend to grasp at whatever can get them through, there are no atheists in fox holes. There's nothing wrong with having respect for religion while not being religious.

I think this page refutes that claim.

http://militaryathei...org/expaif.html



Now, on another note, I was interested in knowing more about Volus and Elcor beliefs systems, I don't think we saw much of them. It seemed that they had a society more based on philosofy rather than on religious views. Anyone know more about those 2 societies?

Wonder how many of these atheist soldiers hope for something beyond while they're bleeding out.

Most of them probably were thinking more along the lines of: "Apply pressure to the wound, stay calm, yell for medic" ect ect. I find it hard to believe that even a gawd lovin' theists could concentrate on anything but this when they have been shot in the gut.

[Aesieru]

SimKoning wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

tomcplotts wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

Cosmar wrote...

I also think it has to do with the whole end of the world thing. If people believe the end is coming, a lot of them tend to start thinking about that kind of thing more. Death, afterlife, what does it all mean, etc. when you're faced with impending death and loss of everything you know and love...

That's the "No Atheists in Foxholes" argument, which is kind of bull****.

But I can see Shepard just saying these things out of either habit or to comfort others.

I still don't know anyone who was in the military that when they were in severe harms way and thought they might die that didn't say a quick prayer out of hope.

well, now you can say you've met one. nice to meet ya!

And what harm were you nearly in and what your thoughts?

Pat Tillman, the pro football player that ended his career to enlist in the military was an atheist. He was killed by friendly fire, I don't remember any mention of him "saying his prayers". I also have two friends that don't believe in god that were both in the U.S. army. One was in the infantry, and the other is a sniper. 

That wasn't what I asked...

I specifically stated that if people truly believe that in the next few moments or minutes they will die that they tend to think about the future, their place, what they've done, and what comes after, and that every military person I knew in that situation said a prayer in desperation, last minute hope, or some similar thing.

I did not say nor expect that anyone in the military would do this just because, which is what you seem to believe. There has to be the necessary stimuli.

That is what it means to be in a fox hole, as a fox hole at that time was considered a death trap on a timer.

A sniper may not feel he is ever in danger, indeed many get a sense of superiority and power from choosing when a person dies that can never see you at such long ranges. A soldier may not feel it either if they don't happen to get the worst-possible assignments and situations.

[Pottumuusi]

Regardless of if there are atheists in foxholes(which there are), I would like to quote James Morrow on this issue: "'There are no atheists in foxholes' is not an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."

[OchreJelly]

Archontor wrote...

Offended is strong word, at most I was unpleasantly surprised. P.S love the art.

I figured, I was being facetious. \\o/ And thanks for the compliment.

Regarding the topic, it's merely a literary device to make us relate to characters using familiar terminology and current philosophy, nothing more than that.

That's why characters speak (omni-tool translated) english after all. Familiarity.

There are bigger "problems" than fake philosophical and cultural differences in my opinion.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 23 mars 2012 - 12:06 .

[Strategyking92]

I have never heard anyone complain about too much religion in mass effect.


I guess there is a first for everything, though.

[tempAE0F]

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Yep, those parts suck. It really messed with my atheist Shepard. The way I rationalized it was that my Shepard was just being diplomatic. But yeah, after the way you can blow off Ashley in the first game regarding a belief in a deity, it seems like an odd choice to force that on the player.

Meh, I probably will just chalk it up to the same reason they couldn't get the endings right. They were rushed and didn't put enough time into their dialogue.

[Chuvvy]

I'm an Atheist. I mention God all the time, and refer to him as if he's real. Basically, it doesn't confirm that Shepard is religious, it only confirms that Garrus is his friend, or that he's hoping for good luck. Unless you're one of those hardcore Atheist that's so into it they're more annoying than the loud Christians, I don't see why you'd have a problem with it.