259 réponses à ce sujet

[PeaceMack]

I didn't think that Garrus actually believed in a "bar in heaven" when he made those statements. I figured he was being metaphorical. In-game, I figured that various Christian etc. missionaries saw aliens as a whole new flock to convert; cultural diffusion and all that. And, since Garrus had spent time on the Citadel, I could just seen him staring down some fresh-faced missionaries knocking on his door.

[DBHolm]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Well think about it, if there was no real after life, no God etc, then everything was just temporary mistakes or self-created rules anyway. Importance of organic life, chance to determine their own faith would just be made up constructs, importance of any life in general would all just be constructs. There is really no 'saving' the galaxy. It would also just be a made up construct.

So maybe someone at Bioware who was deep in to philosophy and stuff decided to include such things to make sure the story was not a complete sham.

Not believing in a God does not mean one must subscribe to nihilism or moral relativism. What you are arguing is akin to claiming that if there is no God, then there would be no point in stopping  Hitler during WW2, which I find to be completely absurd.

I guess that does follow too from what I said. But without a God or supernatural rules of the Universe, why is there any reason to believe that life is valuable though?

I will be honest, the reason I believe life is valuable is because of religion. But if I were to go by just observation, it seems like just a random collection of matter that came to be through a evolutionary process. There doesn't seem to be any actual importance, no? There is also the 'feeling' I get that it is of importance, but that is also probably a evolutionary construct. So yea, I am not sure why there would be any real reason....?

Life is valuable because it is life.

It needs nothing more.


To return to the actual topic of the thread, it didn't bother me too much while playing (I remember it, but I didn't really notice it; I guess I took it as metaphor), but in retrospect, it bothers me -- not so much that Shepard says something religious, but that I didn't have an opportunity to choose something else to say instead.

[Stanley Woo]

Let's keep the real-world religious discussion out of it, please, and concentrate on in-game stuff. Thank you.

[TheShadowWolf911]

i'm gonna stay out of this, in my experience on the internet, talking about religion results in fighting between the idiots of both sides.

[katamuro]

Well there is the simple language reference many of us make without actually thinking, and the other one is that in a time of great crisis many people turn to fate and religion for support/explanation. Nothing mystical about that, just the way a sentient mind works.

[Warhawk7137]

For reference, I'm working on a sci-fi book, and there is some religious discussion and symbolism in there. My goal is to offend both atheists and religious people equally. That said it seems pretty easy, as long as you have one character that believes in God, and one that doesn't, you've basically achieved that goal.

Anyway, lets not get our panties in a bunch over what ultimately amounts to a handful of throw-away colloquialisms.

[Dr_Hello]

Archontor wrote...

In mass effect lore humanity and a few other species appear to be primarily athiestic, you can even join in when Ash asks of your religion in the first game.

What I found odd then is that at one point in the game Shep says "I'm sure wherever he is he's putting in a good word for us." I found that a bit odd but I went with it becaus it was poigninat scene and I was caught up in the loss of such a great character.

Then later Garrus makes his memorable 'bar in heaven referrence' even though nothing in the Turian religion suggests that they have a heaven and certainly rules out a god.

What I want to know is why they deicided to mess with the lore and take away an established choice about our Shepards?

Hope, faith, morality, humanity... are some of the themes explored in Mass Effect.

[Dr_Hello]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's keep the real-world religious discussion out of it, please, and concentrate on in-game stuff. Thank you.

Agreed.

Religion as explored in Mass Effect is on a more Existential and Metaphorical level than real-world.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 23 mars 2012 - 02:31 .

[Dr_Hello]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

i'm gonna stay out of this, in my experience on the internet, talking about religion results in fighting between the idiots of both sides.

LOL... true, it goes to show how somewhat still primitive we are as a species overall.

[Dr_Hello]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

For reference, I'm working on a sci-fi book, and there is some religious discussion and symbolism in there. My goal is to offend both atheists and religious people equally. That said it seems pretty easy, as long as you have one character that believes in God, and one that doesn't, you've basically achieved that goal.

Anyway, lets not get our panties in a bunch over what ultimately amounts to a handful of throw-away colloquialisms.

'to offend' ?

Sounds like your book will create division among people instead of inviting them to 'think'

[ManOfSteeL1618]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

I'm an atheist but I still make references to heaven and hell and God and whatnot. Just because I stopped believing in the supernatural and deities it doesn't mean I have to stop using common colloquial expressions that everyone understands the meaning of.

Same here, I just use the saying as a habit I guess...

[Warhawk7137]

Dr_Hello wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

For reference, I'm working on a sci-fi book, and there is some religious discussion and symbolism in there. My goal is to offend both atheists and religious people equally. That said it seems pretty easy, as long as you have one character that believes in God, and one that doesn't, you've basically achieved that goal.

Anyway, lets not get our panties in a bunch over what ultimately amounts to a handful of throw-away colloquialisms.

'to offend' ?

Sounds like your book will create division among people instead of inviting them to 'think'

Well, I'm kinda joking, the point is to get people to think, the problem is that there's a whole subset of atheists who find any reference to religion insulting because apparently religion is a terrible, terrible thing that should never be spoken of... and there's a similar subset of religious people who read way too far into things and get offended and go on crusades against innocuous works like Harry Potter.

I'm not saying I want to offend everyone, but if I offend both crazy fringe groups, it probably means that the more reasonable people will have something interesting to think about.  You can't please everyone, so I'm just considering who the people I want to ****** off are.  Those would be the crazy people.

Basically what I mean is, if the book were successful, and I didn't have at least a few fringe atheists disclaiming it for the discussion of religion, and a few fringe religious people (ok, probably Christians, let's be realistic) disclaiming it for being blasphemous, then I probably went to far in one direction or the other, instead of having a nice balance.

Plus, if it became successful, I would probably just end up stringing people along and not tell them whether I believe in God or not, in order to watch the fringe atheists talk about how I'm obviously one of those stupid religious people, and the fringe religious people talk about how I'm obviously one of those blasphemous atheists.

Modifié par Warhawk7137, 23 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[Wattoes]

Using the Garrus example, a lot of that is just random buddy chatter. Neither guy may believe in it, but it could be a way through conversation to show how important a person is to you. "If we die, and if there is a place up there, ill be waiting for you man. BFF's forever."

Thats another important point. You may not believe in it, but when it comes down to those moments, you might wonder "what if".

Personally I dont believe in any religion, but if I were potentially about to die, id certainly be wondering whats on the other side.

[ryuasiu]

Baronesa wrote...

I was wondering the same, I clearly remember telling Ash on ME1 that I didn't believe in god...

I read the prayer for Thane out of respect, as I do in real life when I have to attend a religious ceremony, but the auto dialogue assuming your Shepard HAS to believe in something was a bit bothersome.

Same in Dragon Age 2... I remember clearly in Dragon Age my Warden was very firm in her atheism, but I didn't even had that choice on Dragon Age 2, and auto dialogue of Hawke many times made references to the maker.


To each their own, I guess... but those options are really missed.

And to ninjanumber1. I strongly disagree with your statement

As someone that does believe in a higher power I do think there should have been more options for those that dont believe. I dont hate atheists, penn and teller are atheists and I will allways love those guys:lol: But then again I am one of those silly people that believe in loving and respecting your fellow man no matter who or what they are and treating them like faimly.

[gmboy902]

The overall idea of a religious allegory in sci-fi is not new, see 'Halo'.

The other references, I'd say they're a result of the cultural tradition. The Asari still make mention to their Godess, but few buy into the belief. The idea of "heaven" doesn't have to be tied to Christianity, maybe Garrus and Shepard were just talking about the stereotypical afterlife that they still couldn't definitively deny or confirm.

[swinburnian]

Okay, I foresee this thread ending beautifully, but I'm going to weigh in.

Disclaimers: I am a former Christian with seven years fundamentalist theological training. I am now the worst kind of agnostic: the kind who just doesn't care. I absolutely hate ALL theories on the afterlife, from Heaven/Hell to reincarnation to "you live on in their hearts".

Now that's out of the way, I didn't mind the comment about Mordin. Just because I think all "what comes after this?" theories are crap doesn't mean I would ever, ever, in a million years say or imply, "Welp, he's nonexistent now, hope oblivion is chill" when speaking about a recently departed friend. It's not comforting and it's not appropriate. Also, I would be busy dearly wishing I could get over my afterlife-antipathy and believe that friend was in a better place.

Garrus's heaven commentary, however, threw me. I'm actually okay with Shepard's continuation of his metaphor. There's really no way to make, "Uh, I don't believe in heaven, and do turians even have a heaven? I thought you guys were animists" remotely appropriate in that situation. So even our hardline atheist Shepards are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea: do they bust their best friend/lover's bubble and get all RARGH HEAVEN ALSO ANIMISM WHAT, or do they play along?

But. I do not like Shepard's biffle or lover putting hir in that position. That irritates me.

Also, it feels really weird, lore wise. The native turian religion is basically a form of animism. They believe that collectives (ships, regiments, colonies, planets, works of art created by more than one person) have spirits. Essentially, they revere zeitgeists rather than trees, rocks, and other living things. (This may be totemism, actually, but they can be hard to separate or even go hand-in-hand.)

As a general rule, animist religions don't have a heaven. This is because they don't perceive a difference between "spiritual" and "physical." If everything's got a soul, who's to say there's a difference between what your soul sees and what your eyes see?

So why is Garrus talking about turian heaven? I have no idea. I can't even ask him, because autodialogue. And I'm stuck going "Sure, meet you at the bar" because it's the supportive thing to say.

[Warhawk7137]

Also, for the record, I majored in Religion in college.

[rivqa]

This bothered me too. I liked in DA:O how you had the opportunity to be pro, anti or neutral to the Chantry. In most cases it can be put down to it being how people talk, but ... meh. Falls into the "too much autodialogue" basket I think.

[ryuasiu]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Also, for the record, I majored in Religion in college.

I had a girlfriend that that went to a christian college and had plans to become a preacher. Ended up becoming a pegan XD Note that I dated her while she was a pegan, never bothered me she believed in something diffrent and vice versa

[hardcoregmr]

I recommend going back and playing ME2, there are numerous references to religion in the ME universe. Thane has an entire dialouge about Drell polythesism and Mordin says a prayer for the dead Krogan female in Maelon's death camp. Samara gives many references to the warrior monk ideal present in Eastern culture. And the Hanar believe that the protheans are Gods, they call them the Enkindlers. Religion still exist in a wide in varied form in the ME universe, Hell you have a squadmate whose name is derived from a direct quote of the christian bible. Dude, they give the full quote from the bible (Mark 5:9) "My name is Legion, for we are many!"

Someone hasn't been paying attention or are just looking for things to complain about. Eitherway, please be mindful that many in the video game media wish to paint the detractors of the ME3 endings as ignorant, complainers who are upset over nothing. Try not to help prove their point correct!

[Warhawk7137]

ryuasiu wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Also, for the record, I majored in Religion in college.

I had a girlfriend that that went to a christian college and had plans to become a preacher. Ended up becoming a pegan XD Note that I dated her while she was a pegan, never bothered me she believed in something diffrent and vice versa

Well, I didn't go to a Christian college, and I majored in Religion, not Theology. 

I enjoyed it.  It's basically a combination of sociology, anthropology, philosophy, history, literature, art, and a few other things, applied to a narrow but important part of human culture and history.

[Holoe4]

Because who wouldn't want to spill a few drinks with Garrus in Turian afterlife?

[Warhawk7137]

Holoe4 wrote...

Because who wouldn't want to spill a few drinks with Garrus in Turian afterlife?

Do you think the Turian afterlife has drinks for levos?

[Psychlonus]

I don't get why atheists are offended by the "no atheists in a foxhole" cliche. Atheists are the ones who say that belief in the afterlife was invented by people who didn't want to face the reality of death (which I disagree with BTW). Both of these chliches are the same.

[troyk2027]

Aesieru wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

Cosmar wrote...

I also think it has to do with the whole end of the world thing. If people believe the end is coming, a lot of them tend to start thinking about that kind of thing more. Death, afterlife, what does it all mean, etc. when you're faced with impending death and loss of everything you know and love...

That's the "No Atheists in Foxholes" argument, which is kind of bull****.

But I can see Shepard just saying these things out of either habit or to comfort others.

I still don't know anyone who was in the military that when they were in severe harms way and thought they might die that didn't say a quick prayer out of hope.

I do.