203 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

If every poll that has ever been done on the issue has the people that dislike the endings at greater than 85%, then how do you KNOW we are a vocal minority? All the evidence points the other way. That is my point.

Because every poll that has ever been done on the issue is drawing from the same tainted sample:

Mass Effect 3 owners who are registered at video game website and who actually care enough to vote.

If I went to a Superman forum and said "Hey guys, I have a poll, how much would Superman kick that dude from DBZ's ass?" and 99% of people voted "SO FKING MUCH" it doesn't mean that 99% of people in the world think Superman would DBZ guy's ass. It means 99% of posters at this Superman forum who cared enough to vote, and were already told HOW to vote, thought that Superman would kick DBZ dude's ass SO MUCH.

Let me put it thusly: Are you a majority on THIS board? Yes. Absolutely. You are. Congratulations.

Are you a majority of EVERY ME3 owner? No. You are still a vocal minority. Sorry.

Not being able to prove we are the majority =/= proving we are the minnority. 

[Father_Jerusalem]

bleachorange wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill math. 

And yet you ignore my post, that has valid math and statistics? lol, what a colin moriarty you are.

here, in case you missed it:

60,000 out of 66,000 people didn't like the ending and want a better one
according a poll. Also, this is by far and away the most responded poll
on BSN(think about it - this poll beats out every other poll on BSN by
at least 50,000 total votes), the next two largest also have statistics
showing the majority prefer new endings. This means, regardless of WHERE
the poll is located, the trend is Bioware has ticked off SO MANY MORE
PEOPLE THAN IT EVER HAS BEFORE by at least 500%, on it's own FAN WEBSITE
where people who LIKE their games come to play.

There is at least a 500% increase in the traffic on that poll
versus any other poll on BSN, AND 91% of them say the ending needs
improvement. If you owned a business and increased your customer base by
500% (50 becomes 250, 1k becomes 5k, etc.) do you think that is
statistically irrelevant?

5 times as many
people took the trouble to vote on this poll than any previous one,
BECAUSE IT MATTERS TO THEM.

A poll advertised as "come vote on how much you hate the endings" that allowed multiple votes (seriously, people ON YOUR SIDE have confirmed that) and has been confirmed to have vote-bombed has a massive discrepency in the results?

OMGNOWAI.

For the record, I like the endings. I never once voted in that poll, because it's a RIDICULOUS poll. Does that mean I don't really like the ending, or does it mean that I just can't be f'd to vote in something so ridiculously biased and leading?

[Father_Jerusalem]

EJ107 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

If every poll that has ever been done on the issue has the people that dislike the endings at greater than 85%, then how do you KNOW we are a vocal minority? All the evidence points the other way. That is my point.

Because every poll that has ever been done on the issue is drawing from the same tainted sample:

Mass Effect 3 owners who are registered at video game website and who actually care enough to vote.

If I went to a Superman forum and said "Hey guys, I have a poll, how much would Superman kick that dude from DBZ's ass?" and 99% of people voted "SO FKING MUCH" it doesn't mean that 99% of people in the world think Superman would DBZ guy's ass. It means 99% of posters at this Superman forum who cared enough to vote, and were already told HOW to vote, thought that Superman would kick DBZ dude's ass SO MUCH.

Let me put it thusly: Are you a majority on THIS board? Yes. Absolutely. You are. Congratulations.

Are you a majority of EVERY ME3 owner? No. You are still a vocal minority. Sorry.

Not being able to prove we are the majority =/= proving we are the minnority. 

Okay, prove you're the majority. I'll wait right here.

[justlogme]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And I was a lurker for years who finally got fed up with all the accusations that I can't like the ending with being some kind of stupid, ignorant noob who should just go back to Call of Duty because I don't "get it".

I'm sure there are more out there just like that too.

Anyway. 1.5 million copies sold, as a conservative estimate. 750,001 unique complaints are what's needed to prove a majority, otherwise you will remain a vocal minority. Sorry, it's not me, it's math.

No, it's not math. It's sheer idiocy. You obviously have no clue how polls work. I guess we should stop looking at Gallup and everything. Clearly you should send them a letter detailing your wonderful discovery on how they need to poll 51% of Americans in order to know what the majority of Americans think.

Your logic is stupid and going by that logic, all reviews of all games everywhere are worthless since I will guarantee you we never had a majority of people actually give their answer. It's 90 to 10 against, dude. The real numbers may be more like 75-25 against, but it sure as hell isn't a majority the other way.

Aw, and we were getting along so well.

First off, I know how polls work. And a internet poll where you're required to sign up to be able to vote, that allows multiple voting, that is advertised as "Come vote on how much you hate the endings", and that draws from a select group of people who are passionate enough to actually bother in the first place... is not, in any way, under any circumstances, a valid poll.

If BioWare does a poll where they email questions to an actual random sample of registered owners, we can sit down and discuss those results because they're actually relevant.

But other than that, uh, good job?

Stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill math. 

   No its double speak sorry if every poll done shows players disliked the ending you can't just bury your head in the sand and say the majority liked the ending. Thats just pure idiocy. Kinda like saying that we should elect for presicent the one that gets the least votes because obviously those that do vote are baised haters since not everyone in america voted.

[bleachorange]

Dridengx wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

If every poll that has ever been done on the issue has the people that dislike the endings at greater than 85%, then how do you KNOW we are a vocal minority? All the evidence points the other way. That is my point.

How do you know? simple. Want to know how? See the total poll results and how many voted in the poll which is usually at 40k to 60k people (ofcourse these numbers are slightly off and vary per poll) but the numbers are never really high. YOu could win polls of 10 people or 60k people regardless those polls are a fraction of total sales. Your evidence is solid SALES vs Whiners. you can't get more clear than that.

If you still don't see it I'm losing hope for humanity's competence lol No wonder you guys need a clearer ending, ME3's ending is beyond your means of understanding

How many times do I have to prove it? You must not have even the most basic concepts of economics, business, or statistics. Otherwise you would see how obtuse you're being. Oh? look it up, and learn something for a change.

60,000 out of 66,000 people didn't like the ending and want a better one
according a poll. Also, this is by far and away the most responded poll
on BSN(think about it - this poll beats out every other poll on BSN by
at least 50,000 total votes), the next two largest also have statistics
showing the majority prefer new endings. This means, regardless of WHERE
the poll is located, the trend is Bioware has ticked off SO MANY MORE
PEOPLE THAN IT EVER HAS BEFORE by at least 500%, on it's own FAN WEBSITE
where people who LIKE their games come to play.

There is at least a 500% increase in the traffic on that poll
versus any other poll on BSN, AND 91% of them say the ending needs
improvement. If you owned a business and increased your customer base by
500% (50 becomes 250, 1k becomes 5k, etc.) do you think that is
statistically irrelevant?

Note, the point I'm trying to make
isn't that such a percent liked/did not. It's that 5 times as many
people took the trouble to vote on this poll than any previous one,
BECAUSE IT MATTERS TO THEM.

[Rafe34]

Dridengx wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

If every poll that has ever been done on the issue has the people that dislike the endings at greater than 85%, then how do you KNOW we are a vocal minority? All the evidence points the other way. That is my point.

How do you know? simple. Want to know how? See the total poll results and how many voted in the poll which is usually at 40k to 60k people (ofcourse these numbers are slightly off and vary per poll) but the numbers are never really high. YOu could win polls of 10 people or 60k people regardless those polls are a fraction of total sales. Your evidence is solid SALES vs Whiners. you can't get more clear than that.

If you still don't see it I'm losing hope for humanity's competence lol

How does someone buying the game mean they like the ending? Your logic completely falls flat on its face. People bought the game because of what BW promised in their advertising, because of word of mouth, and because they played the previous two games in the series and liked it.

We didn't know the ending, most of us, before we bought the game- it's not possible to do so, unless you went and spoiled yourself- yet you want to assume that just because someone bought the game, they liked the ending, as long as they don't actually say something about it?

You clearly have no idea how polls or statistics work. I suggest taking a stats course to educate yourself on the matter. When every single poll you take of your customer base has 85%+ not liking the ending to your product, your answer is not to stick your head in the sand and say, "Oh well, 1+ million people bought my product and only a hundred thousand or so dislike the ending- because that's all the people that voted in the polls." If that's your advice to your boss, you will swiftly be out of a job, lol. 

[spockspock]

It's not just the minority like they'd like to think that aren't happy with the endings.. I lurk a lot of forums, all kinds, sports, music, etc... and if there's a thread about ME3 pretty much everyone doesn't like the endings.

[Ianamus]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

If every poll that has ever been done on the issue has the people that dislike the endings at greater than 85%, then how do you KNOW we are a vocal minority? All the evidence points the other way. That is my point.

Because every poll that has ever been done on the issue is drawing from the same tainted sample:

Mass Effect 3 owners who are registered at video game website and who actually care enough to vote.

If I went to a Superman forum and said "Hey guys, I have a poll, how much would Superman kick that dude from DBZ's ass?" and 99% of people voted "SO FKING MUCH" it doesn't mean that 99% of people in the world think Superman would DBZ guy's ass. It means 99% of posters at this Superman forum who cared enough to vote, and were already told HOW to vote, thought that Superman would kick DBZ dude's ass SO MUCH.

Let me put it thusly: Are you a majority on THIS board? Yes. Absolutely. You are. Congratulations.

Are you a majority of EVERY ME3 owner? No. You are still a vocal minority. Sorry.

Not being able to prove we are the majority =/= proving we are the minnority. 

Okay, prove you're the majority. I'll wait right here.

Prove that we're the minority. 

I never said we are the majority of all ME3 players. But you very clearly said in the bolded text we are the minority. Your the one stating "facts" without proof, not me. 

The truth is we have no clue who is the majority, and we never will. 

Modifié par EJ107, 22 mars 2012 - 11:40 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

EJ107 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And I was a lurker for years who finally got fed up with all the accusations that I can't like the ending with being some kind of stupid, ignorant noob who should just go back to Call of Duty because I don't "get it".

I'm sure there are more out there just like that too.

Anyway. 1.5 million copies sold, as a conservative estimate. 750,001 unique complaints are what's needed to prove a majority, otherwise you will remain a vocal minority. Sorry, it's not me, it's math.

That's not how the maths, or rather the statistics works. And I know, because I've been studying statistics for awhile now. 

If you had to have that many people complain to "prove it" then no piece of marketing, nothing could ever use the words "majority" or "minority", becuase it would be impossible to ever prove. 

That's why people use samples, and extrapolate from them. While the poll might be biassed it has a huge sample size, which definitely works in it's favor. And I can assure you that any statistical tests on that data would "prove" that people unhappy with the endings are a majority. 

Of course due to it being on these forums and such it can't be taken exactly, but considering the huge sample size and the fact that it's been posted everywhere on the internet I'd say it's a reasonable reflection of these forums at least, if not a large portion of the playerbase (many people who don't use the forums reguarly must have voted on it- I don't see 60'000 posters here). 

You. Cannot. Use. That poll. To. Back. Up. Your. Movement.

You can't. It is in NO WAY anywhere close to scientifically accurate. Good god.

1. It allowed multiple votes. That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.
2. It was advertised on websites and in links as "Come tell us how much you hated the ending". That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.
3. It draws from a self-selecting sample with no randomness to it at all. That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.

Flat out. This poll is USELESS.

[deerburn]

I don't really want to get into this, but honestly, I don't think vocal minority/silent majority matters. The fact that there are so many posts about this and that Bioware themselves have decided to address the issue has got to mean something. I mean if people want new endings, then why not? So long as the people who like the original endings can still get what they want.

[GoddessLunatic]

blue water wrote...

I'll be honest. I've read, but never posted before. Whew! Now that I've been outed I feel somehow lighter. I replayed ME1 and ME2 several times. I tweaked my Shepard, experimented with choices. I knew it wouldn't change the grand finales (beat soveriegn/collectors), but it would affect the characters and species I'd encountered. It was great. The ending to ME3 leaves me with zero desire to replay it, or any DLCs. Unless Bioware has a surprise coming, what's the point. If I just want to shoot things, there are other games available. Games that don't inspire an emotional investment. The ending to ME3 was like buying tickets to the Stanely Cup and getting the Ice Capades instead. Nothing wrong with the Ice Capades, but I'd like to know how the Wings did;).

One last thing. ME3 did get me to play multiplayer for the first time. I CARED that much. I won't claim to have done everything in single player, but if I missed anything it wasn't for lack of trying. In the end, I had a TMS and EMS of 7020. I'd appreciate someone pointing me to link showing how you could get an EMS in the 4000/5000 range without multiplayer.

Thanks.

Wow. Were you in my head this entire time? Because that's exactly how it was for me. 

[kbct]

spockspock wrote...

It's not just the minority like they'd like to think that aren't happy with the endings.. I lurk a lot of forums, all kinds, sports, music, etc... and if there's a thread about ME3 pretty much everyone doesn't like the endings.

Interesting.

Are you saying there are ME3 threads on other types of forums and the consensus is the same?

Modifié par kbct, 22 mars 2012 - 11:45 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

EJ107 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

If every poll that has ever been done on the issue has the people that dislike the endings at greater than 85%, then how do you KNOW we are a vocal minority? All the evidence points the other way. That is my point.

Because every poll that has ever been done on the issue is drawing from the same tainted sample:

Mass Effect 3 owners who are registered at video game website and who actually care enough to vote.

If I went to a Superman forum and said "Hey guys, I have a poll, how much would Superman kick that dude from DBZ's ass?" and 99% of people voted "SO FKING MUCH" it doesn't mean that 99% of people in the world think Superman would DBZ guy's ass. It means 99% of posters at this Superman forum who cared enough to vote, and were already told HOW to vote, thought that Superman would kick DBZ dude's ass SO MUCH.

Let me put it thusly: Are you a majority on THIS board? Yes. Absolutely. You are. Congratulations.

Are you a majority of EVERY ME3 owner? No. You are still a vocal minority. Sorry.

Not being able to prove we are the majority =/= proving we are the minnority. 

Okay, prove you're the majority. I'll wait right here.

Prove that we're the minority. 

I never said we are the majority of all ME3 players. But you very clearly said in the bolded text we are the minority. Your the one stating "facts" without proof, not me. 

The truth is we have no clue who is the majority, and we never will. 

The majority: People who just don't care enough to care about internet fking drama.
A minority: People who vocally hate the endings and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
A smaller minority: People who vocally enjoy the endings, and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
An even smaller minority: People who hate pie.

How is that, in ANY way, arguable?

[Ianamus]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The majority: People who just don't care enough to care about internet fking drama.
A minority: People who vocally hate the endings and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
A smaller minority: People who vocally enjoy the endings, and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
An even smaller minority: People who hate pie.

How is that, in ANY way, arguable?

I know loads of people who don't like pie (including myself). 

[Rafe34]

kbct wrote...

spockspock wrote...

It's not just the minority like they'd like to think that aren't happy with the endings.. I lurk a lot of forums, all kinds, sports, music, etc... and if there's a thread about ME3 pretty much everyone doesn't like the endings.

Interesting.

Are you saying there are ME3 threads on other types and forums and the consensus is the same?

I use several forums, and yes, every single one the consensus is the same.

But I guess the trolls in this thread would just assume that everyone that doesn't actually say they are against the endings are actually for them.

[Cigne]

I have some issues with the ending; like maybe a callback during the conversation with Anderson (about having done the same with Saren, when I convinced Tim he was wrong). And the bit with Joker afterwards, and Grandpa's awkward voice acting...

Still, I liked the concept of the ending choices, and I'm a little sad at the outcome of this protest. Oh well.

so how's this going to work, do the devs submit their proposed changes to the Retake leadership for approval, or does the leadership just give a list to the devs?

Rhetorical question.

[N7-Avenger]

Long time lurker. I too did not like the ending. I didn't HATE it, per se. I just wondered where my option was to tell that ghost child to bugger off.

That and the complete lack of any sort of epilogue boggled my mind. This game was basically DA:O in space. They had a tried and true market tested formula that worked, and they abandoned it in favor of "speculation," just...why? I seriously don't understand.

Even KOTOR II, which had a WTF ending, at least had Kreia tell you what happened to basically everything. Would a QEC conversation between Joker and Hackett after the crash have been too much? Maybe one of Liara's descendants finding her little grey box of what happened with the Reaper War? Even an in engine cut scene of the Normandy colony, or maybe even the combined races that survived on earth, thousands of years later successfully finishing a Relay conduit and launching into space would have been a better ending than the stargazer weirdness.

Simply put, if most of my "speculation," about an open ended story is about how much better it could have been, or in fact SHOULD have been, than something is wrong.

Ah, well, whatever. flame shields up. I retreat now.

[Father_Jerusalem]

EJ107 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The majority: People who just don't care enough to care about internet fking drama.
A minority: People who vocally hate the endings and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
A smaller minority: People who vocally enjoy the endings, and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
An even smaller minority: People who hate pie.

How is that, in ANY way, arguable?

I know loads of people who don't like pie (including myself). 

Fine, throw out the pie part.

[bleachorange]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
You. Cannot. Use. That poll. To. Back. Up. Your. Movement.

You can't. It is in NO WAY anywhere close to scientifically accurate. Good god.

1. It allowed multiple votes. That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.
2. It was advertised on websites and in links as "Come tell us how much you hated the ending". That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.
3. It draws from a self-selecting sample with no randomness to it at all. That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.

Flat out. This poll is USELESS.

Regardless of WHERE
the poll is located, the trend is Bioware has ticked off SO MANY MORE
PEOPLE THAN IT EVER HAS BEFORE by at least 500%, on it's own FAN WEBSITE
where people who LIKE their games come to play.

Allowing multiple votes works both ways. And it's usually the minority who cheats (look at foreign politics aka russia and the party of crooks and thieves). why cheat if you're winning?

[Rafe34]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The majority: People who just don't care enough to care about internet fking drama.
A minority: People who vocally hate the endings and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
A smaller minority: People who vocally enjoy the endings, and post on BSN, and other video game sites, saying so.
An even smaller minority: People who hate pie.

How is that, in ANY way, arguable?

Because you assume that that majority likes the endings. You and Colin Moriarty both assume that you are the majority, when in fact, you have zero evidence that suggests this is the case.

[kbct]

Rafe34 wrote...

kbct wrote...

Are you saying there are ME3 threads on other types and forums and the consensus is the same?

I use several forums, and yes, every single one the consensus is the same.

But I guess the trolls in this thread would just assume that everyone that doesn't actually say they are against the endings are actually for them.

Yeah, there is no stopping them. We just gotta ignore them and search for the signal within the noise.

Thanks for the info. No bueno.

[Rafe34]

Cigne wrote...

I have some issues with the ending; like maybe a callback during the conversation with Anderson (about having done the same with Saren, when I convinced Tim he was wrong). And the bit with Joker afterwards, and Grandpa's awkward voice acting...

Still, I liked the concept of the ending choices, and I'm a little sad at the outcome of this protest. Oh well.

so how's this going to work, do the devs submit their proposed changes to the Retake leadership for approval, or does the leadership just give a list to the devs?

Rhetorical question.

So you don't have a problem with them being able to end it however they please, even if it flies in the face of their own established canon?

[Ianamus]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And I was a lurker for years who finally got fed up with all the accusations that I can't like the ending with being some kind of stupid, ignorant noob who should just go back to Call of Duty because I don't "get it".

I'm sure there are more out there just like that too.

Anyway. 1.5 million copies sold, as a conservative estimate. 750,001 unique complaints are what's needed to prove a majority, otherwise you will remain a vocal minority. Sorry, it's not me, it's math.

That's not how the maths, or rather the statistics works. And I know, because I've been studying statistics for awhile now. 

If you had to have that many people complain to "prove it" then no piece of marketing, nothing could ever use the words "majority" or "minority", becuase it would be impossible to ever prove. 

That's why people use samples, and extrapolate from them. While the poll might be biassed it has a huge sample size, which definitely works in it's favor. And I can assure you that any statistical tests on that data would "prove" that people unhappy with the endings are a majority. 

Of course due to it being on these forums and such it can't be taken exactly, but considering the huge sample size and the fact that it's been posted everywhere on the internet I'd say it's a reasonable reflection of these forums at least, if not a large portion of the playerbase (many people who don't use the forums reguarly must have voted on it- I don't see 60'000 posters here). 

You. Cannot. Use. That poll. To. Back. Up. Your. Movement.

You can't. It is in NO WAY anywhere close to scientifically accurate. Good god.

1. It allowed multiple votes. That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.
2. It was advertised on websites and in links as "Come tell us how much you hated the ending". That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.
3. It draws from a self-selecting sample with no randomness to it at all. That, right there, regardless of EVERYTHING else, disqualifies it.

Flat out. This poll is USELESS.

I agree that the poll is generally useless proving anything as a whole (It has a large sample size but like I said, very biassed) but you specifically said:

"750,001 unique complaints are what's needed to prove a majority, otherwise you will remain a vocal minority. Sorry, it's not me, it's math. "

And this is completely false. A randomly selected poll of several thousand that questions players of Mass Effect 3 at random on the game itself would be able to provide a proper statistical answer. So no, 700'501 complains aren't needed to prove a majority. 

Modifié par EJ107, 22 mars 2012 - 11:52 .