89 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraflare]

 I just did multiple Geth gold runs using 1) mantis X 2) widow II 3) valiant and 4) black widow, all on a SI with barrel and extra ammo, no special ammo. Here are my findings:

1. For raw dps, Mantis performs the poorest. The lighter weight does not help cloak when you are cloak-->ED-->shooting to get the lowest possible cooldown. However, the Mantis will be useful if you are in a team and are the objective/cap slave, so you can really make a dash to all the points in the most efficient manner. For people in silver looking to start in gold, use Mantis X until you are perfectly familiar with your cloak>ability>shoot cycles and dont miss your 1 shot. Or if you weren't lucky enough to get any of the better guns :> It is still better than any other common/uncommon sniper rifle.

2. Widow is good, but inefficient at dropping lighter guys (up to centurion/marauder/rocket trooper/hunter). This is because a cloaked heatshot from black widow after EDing all shields will still result in a kill, but now with 2 shots leftover. Due to lack of damage health leak, widow suffers here. However, a Widow X really brings the big targets (primes/atlas/banshee) down fast, and exposes you to the least damage per cloak cycle. This is an important point: If you're in a team that is constantly moving and rarely have time to take shots, a Widow > Black Widow because you can cloak, take a snap shot, and quickly move on. The BW requires you to stand exposed for quite a bit longer in order to get your full Cloak -> 3 shot cycle.

3. Black Widow: As mentioned above, cloak headshot will kill ALL lighter units once shields are down, including phantoms (pyros sometimes live). Having the flexibility of 3 shots is great, you can kill 3 assault troopers/guardians/cannibals/whatever, or 1 midtier + 1 low tier (ED rocket trooper, headshot, 2 more shots to drop another). Cloak -> 2 shots on a fat target roughly equals Cloak > Shot using Widow. Cloak -> 3 shots will out DPS a Widow each cycle. The main weakness is if you cant hit cloak headshots regularly, as bodyshots cant bring down even the lowest tier dude in 1 cloaked hit (widow can).

4: Valiant: Had mixed feelings about this. I found myself aiming better with the blackwidow, because the recoil of the shot gave me enough time to line up headshots for all 3 shots. For the valiant, the faster fire rate kind of forced me to spam the shots. Furthermore, a cloak>energy drain>headshot CANNOT kill a hunter on gold! Have not tested on reaper/cerberus gold, but if anyone can do so and post here, make a list of enemies with shield that can/cannot be taken down with one cloak>ed>headshot cycle using valiant vs blackwidow, that would be useful. 

I find the fast reload time not useful, because I'm still waiting for that minimum cloak cooldown before starting my next cycle. As a result I'm stuck in between, having a reloaded clip, and half a second left to start my next cloak. Should I fire and cloak mid firing? Or wait? If I wait, then the faster reload speed is wasted. This for me is the biggest problem, because the reload time (ironically, being a strong point), does not perfectly match the cloak cooldown. Other than that, I think the valiant still >>> widow for the same reason the BW does, being able to cloak and dish out 2-3 headshots potentially to different people is much more useful than a massive overdamage on 1 target. 

TLDR: Mantis for objective/utility slaves, Widow if you're moving around alot and want to drop people even with bodyshots, Black Widow if you're good at headshotting 2-3 different units quickly, Valiant if you dont have the Black Widow yet.

Appreciate thoughts from other infiltrators!


EDIT: Update for people just wanting some quick info: The Valiant does NOT reset your crosshair back to its previous position after firing. The muzzle climb is small and has to be adjusted for, unlike the Black Widow which will reset your crosshair to the same dot even if you hold down the mouse button.

Modifié par Terraflare, 23 mars 2012 - 01:53 .

[DrekorSilverfang]

BW is an ideal balanced weapon. Valiant is a weaker version of the BW.

Widow is good for 1-hit killing things that are just out of range of the BW to do the same. Mantis is a weaker version of the widow

Modifié par DrekorSilverfang, 23 mars 2012 - 12:08 .

[niripas]

a little OT if you don't mind. I just finished match on silver vs geth. There was a guy with Valiant I, one shooting Geth Troopers, and later on double shooting pyros (first shot - shields gone, second shot - armor). Is the Valiant really that good?

[t6skyart]

niripas wrote...

a little OT if you don't mind. I just finished match on silver vs geth. There was a guy with Valiant I, one shooting Geth Troopers, and later on double shooting pyros (first shot - shields gone, second shot - armor). Is the Valiant really that good?

Valiant is probably the easiest sniper to get multiple headshots with, so I'm guessing that's what he did.
It doesn't do as much damage as everyone's dream rifle, the BW, but it has a very nice feel to it, since it's got almost no recoil, mutliple shots, and insanely fast reload time.

[Mr_Steph]

Will agree on an infiltrator to a certain degree (I don't have all of the sniper rifles ), but I do like to use a sniper rifle on my Turian Sentinel and the Mantis is my preferred sniper there because of the weight and the shot is powerful enough. I can have TA on and have a good enough cooldown on overload.

[Fortack]

Black Widow is hands down the best weapon in the game.

BTW, you can fire all 3 shots with the Cloak damage bonus (if you're quick enough).
On Gold, with level 1 BW and level 4/5 +damage mod (no extra equipment required), you can body shot normal goons.

[MissMinaethiel]

Ya the Mantis is my go-to sniper for my play style. I enjoy capping objectives and I try to assume a medic kind of role since my cloak is an asset. Plus the quick recharge time ensures that when I fire off a shot I'll be able to reload and re-cloak so each shot has the maximum damage possible.

[Duranndal]

Good write-up. I think people are too set in their playstyles though (e.g. I think the mantis x is a great weapon for asari adept, and possibly any other class where low weight is key). The valiant is fantastic in its own right without cloak. I usually do 1 cloak cycle and take some harder targets out with it, then use my off-cloak cycle to take down lighter targets. Rinse repeat. I'm really having a lot of fun with the valiant. It feels a lot more flexible than the widow/bw/mantis to me. Even though it is heavy as hell at lvl 1.

Modifié par Duranndal, 23 mars 2012 - 12:22 .

[Syrinxfloofs]

So i should just use that black widow that i'll never get or the valiant that is literally impossible to get since i got the useless shotgun, wonderful.

[Sabbatine]

Terraflare wrote...

 I just did multiple Geth gold runs using 1) mantis X 2) widow II 3) valiant and 4) black widow, all on a SI with barrel and extra ammo, no special ammo. Here are my findings:

1. For raw dps, Mantis performs the poorest. The lighter weight does not help cloak when you are cloak-->ED-->shooting to get the lowest possible cooldown. However, the Mantis will be useful if you are in a team and are the objective/cap slave, so you can really make a dash to all the points in the most efficient manner. For people in silver looking to start in gold, use Mantis X until you are perfectly familiar with your cloak>ability>shoot cycles and dont miss your 1 shot. Or if you weren't lucky enough to get any of the better guns :> It is still better than any other common/uncommon sniper rifle.

The mantis has plenty of ammunition, why would you waste a mod slot on allowing you to carry more ammo?  You would benefit a lot more from a piercing mod instead.

The mantis being better than any other common/uncommon sniper rifle is purely a matter of opinion.  I personally think a Viper X is better than a Mantis X, especially on gold.

As for raw dps being poor, that depends on the target.  The mantis has the same dps as the widow on any target the mantis one hit kills which or takes the same number of shots to kill as the widow.

Terraflare wrote...

I find the [Valiant's] fast reload time not useful, because I'm still waiting for that minimum cloak cooldown before starting my next cycle. As a result I'm stuck in between, having a reloaded clip, and half a second left to start my next cloak. Should I fire and cloak mid firing? Or wait? If I wait, then the faster reload speed is wasted.

This is a no brainer, why on earth would you wait?  The strength of the weapon is being able to kill multiple enemies per thermal clip, waiting for tactical cloak amounts to willingly giving up this advantage rather than being flexible and taking full advantage of the weapon's strengths.

Modifié par Sabbatine, 23 mars 2012 - 12:29 .

[HKR148]

This thread needs more Javelin.

[deadbeatriot]

HKR148 wrote...

This thread needs more Javelin.

[Terraflare]

To address a few points:

Valiant I think is a clear winner on Silver and below. It is very forgiving (fast firing, fast reloading, lighter than Widow/BW) and still very high damaging. Since on Bronze/Silver you are less/not likely to be facing multiple armored dudes at once (eg 5+ pyro, 3+ prime, 2+ banshee), the widow and blackwidow lose some of their effectiveness.

To address MissMinaethiel: Yup, if you spend alot of time capping objectives or cloaking for more than the minimum to get a shot off, then Mantis will suit you. Do note that if you are just standing in a spot DPSing (say on Firebase white top ladder), then weight is essentially meaningless because you will always be triggering the minimum cooldown possible via cloak>ED>shot.

To Fortack: Hmm, i get mixed results sometimes. Occasionally I would do a cloak>body shot using my BW and NOT drop a tier 1 goon? Not sure about this though, if anyone can test and update here if you can cloak > body shot any normal goon on gold. But anyway, headshotting isnt hard and for newer players try to break the habit of body shotting.

To Durannal: I've tried doing that (ie 1 cloak cycle on armor, reload, 1 non cloak on goons, reload, cloak cycle on armor etc), but i find it messes my rhythm up too much especially having to find alternate heavy> goon> heavy > goon targets. I agree it is more flexible though, simply cuz if you screw your shot up you reload so fast anyway. But if im shooting into a funnel (ie hack objective defence) and not likely to be missing, i feel full cloak cycles with BW is the most effective. Valiant is a fantastic gun though.

[Terraflare]

Sabbatine wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

 I just did multiple Geth gold runs using 1) mantis X 2) widow II 3) valiant and 4) black widow, all on a SI with barrel and extra ammo, no special ammo. Here are my findings:

1. For raw dps, Mantis performs the poorest. The lighter weight does not help cloak when you are cloak-->ED-->shooting to get the lowest possible cooldown. However, the Mantis will be useful if you are in a team and are the objective/cap slave, so you can really make a dash to all the points in the most efficient manner. For people in silver looking to start in gold, use Mantis X until you are perfectly familiar with your cloak>ability>shoot cycles and dont miss your 1 shot. Or if you weren't lucky enough to get any of the better guns :> It is still better than any other common/uncommon sniper rifle.

The mantis has plenty of ammunition, why would you waste a mod slot on allowing you to carry more ammo?  You would benefit a lot more from a piercing mod instead.

The mantis being better than any other common/uncommon sniper rifle is purely a matter of opinion.  I personally think a Viper X is better than a Mantis X, especially on gold.

As for raw dps being poor, that depends on the target.  The mantis has the same dps as the widow on any target the mantis one hit kills which or takes the same number of shots to kill as the widow.

Terraflare wrote...

I find the [Valiant's] fast reload time not useful, because I'm still waiting for that minimum cloak cooldown before starting my next cycle. As a result I'm stuck in between, having a reloaded clip, and half a second left to start my next cloak. Should I fire and cloak mid firing? Or wait? If I wait, then the faster reload speed is wasted.

This is a no brainer, why on earth would you wait?  The strength of the weapon is being able to kill multiple enemies per thermal clip, waiting for tactical cloak amounts to willingly giving up this advantage rather than being flexible and taking full advantage of the weapon's strengths.

Fair points, I did not claim the Mantis had poor dps, simply that among the 4 (especially with higher leveled Widows), it performs the poorest. Yes a cloak > ED > headshot will still kill all mid tier units (just like the others), but since the peak damage is lower than Widow (again with higher Widow levels), on fat targets Mantis will lose out. I've not tried Viper X yet though!

Well, lets say the reload time for the Valiant is 1.5 seconds (not sure if its the exact number) and minimum cloak cooldown is 2.8 seconds (again not sure). If I cloak --> fire --> reload, i now have less than 1.3 seconds left on cloak cooldown. If I fire (takes > 1.5 seconds for all 3 shots), reload (another 1.5 seconds), then I would have wasted 1.7 seconds at which I am not using cloak for extra damage. The numbers are made up, but my point still stands. A cloak cycle followed by a quick unclocked cycle will 'waste' at least 1-2 seconds of time when cloak is already up again but not being used. This is why I hesitate at taking the second uncloaked cycle. 

Oh I forgot, the pierce mod bugs out for me, occasionally lowering damage done instead. 

Modifié par Terraflare, 23 mars 2012 - 12:46 .

[Terraflare]

I dont have a Javelin So I cant comment on it. Foresee problems in hairy situations where you need to snap headshot a sneaky hunter/phantom though.

[HKR148]

Terraflare wrote...

I dont have a Javelin So I cant comment on it. Foresee problems in hairy situations where you need to snap headshot a sneaky hunter/phantom though.

Been playing as a sniper in many FPS games for 10 years or so, headshotting Phantom of its head while its running everywhere like an [a]hole with Javelin really isn't a problem. Plus Javelin lets you see through smoke/invisibility/wall which is very nice. Oh and also the automatic pierce mod as well. Usually gets around 15~20 headshots per match. (silver/gold)

Modifié par HKR148, 23 mars 2012 - 12:51 .

[Zambayoshi]

I like my Widow VII as I play PS3 and I find it difficult to get headshots on the smaller or faster moving enemies. I also like it for max damage for minimum exposure.

The downside is that when I miss with the Widow I really facepalm because it takes a long time to reload it and the weight of it affects the power recharge quite severely.

[GodlessPaladin]

Good analysis.  I personally prefer the Black Widow on my Salarian Infiltrator because I can easily pop off successive headshots or use it to down enemies at close range, and because Geth Primes and Atlasses aren't as much of a threat in my mind as swarms of little guys (and I just find sniping rather inefficient against reapers).

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 23 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[Duranndal]

Terraflare wrote...

To address a few points:

Valiant I think is a clear winner on Silver and below. It is very forgiving (fast firing, fast reloading, lighter than Widow/BW) and still very high damaging. Since on Bronze/Silver you are less/not likely to be facing multiple armored dudes at once (eg 5+ pyro, 3+ prime, 2+ banshee), the widow and blackwidow lose some of their effectiveness.

To address MissMinaethiel: Yup, if you spend alot of time capping objectives or cloaking for more than the minimum to get a shot off, then Mantis will suit you. Do note that if you are just standing in a spot DPSing (say on Firebase white top ladder), then weight is essentially meaningless because you will always be triggering the minimum cooldown possible via cloak>ED>shot.

To Fortack: Hmm, i get mixed results sometimes. Occasionally I would do a cloak>body shot using my BW and NOT drop a tier 1 goon? Not sure about this though, if anyone can test and update here if you can cloak > body shot any normal goon on gold. But anyway, headshotting isnt hard and for newer players try to break the habit of body shotting.

To Durannal: I've tried doing that (ie 1 cloak cycle on armor, reload, 1 non cloak on goons, reload, cloak cycle on armor etc), but i find it messes my rhythm up too much especially having to find alternate heavy> goon> heavy > goon targets. I agree it is more flexible though, simply cuz if you screw your shot up you reload so fast anyway. But if im shooting into a funnel (ie hack objective defence) and not likely to be missing, i feel full cloak cycles with BW is the most effective. Valiant is a fantastic gun though.

I guess it all comes down to playstyle and preference.  I can usually take down twice the amount of targets that my partner does in the same span of time with his black widow (on gold).  Black widow is definitely hands down better for dealing with reapers and atlases though.  And as far as "flexibility" goes... I'm not talking about missing - its more flexible in that you have more time open to yourself in locking down a wider variety of situations than the BW since you're not stuck reloading.  BW = patient, calculated.  Valiant = ability to maneuvre in more fast paced, time-sensitive situations (eg. killing that turret before it mows down your ally running past it, then switching to something else attacking you quickly).  Plus it still rocks as a campers weapon with cloak.

Modifié par Duranndal, 23 mars 2012 - 12:54 .

[Terraflare]

HKR148 wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

I dont have a Javelin So I cant comment on it. Foresee problems in hairy situations where you need to snap headshot a sneaky hunter/phantom though.

Been playing as a sniper in many FPS games for 10 years or so, headshotting Phantom of its head while its running everywhere like an [a]hole with Javelin really isn't a problem. Plus Javelin lets you see through smoke/invisibility/wall which is very nice. Oh and also the automatic pierce mod as well. Usually gets around 15~20 headshots per match. (silver/gold)

Well yeah, headshotting in this game is far easier than most other FPS. You have to admit it will be easier with full hitscan though. I'll try it out when i get the javelin . 

[HKR148]

Terraflare wrote...

HKR148 wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

I dont have a Javelin So I cant comment on it. Foresee problems in hairy situations where you need to snap headshot a sneaky hunter/phantom though.

Been playing as a sniper in many FPS games for 10 years or so, headshotting Phantom of its head while its running everywhere like an [a]hole with Javelin really isn't a problem. Plus Javelin lets you see through smoke/invisibility/wall which is very nice. Oh and also the automatic pierce mod as well. Usually gets around 15~20 headshots per match. (silver/gold)

Well yeah, headshotting in this game is far easier than most other FPS. You have to admit it will be easier with full hitscan though. I'll try it out when i get the javelin . 

You have to really get that 0.25 sec delay mentality on every time you take a shot. Alot of people hates it but once you actually use this to your own advantage, the whole delay problem is the last thing you care about. Oh by the way, multi-killing Guardian that lines up in front of you is always freakin sweet.

[Terraflare]

Duranndal wrote...

I guess it all comes down to playstyle and preference.  I can usually take down twice the amount of targets that my partner does in the same span of time with his black widow (on gold).  Black widow is definitely hands down better for dealing with reapers and atlases though.  And as far as "flexibility" goes... I'm not talking about missing - its more flexible in that you have more time open to yourself in locking down a wider variety of situations than the BW since you're not stuck reloading.  BW = patient, calculated.  Valiant = ability to maneuvre in more fast paced, time-sensitive situations (eg. killing that turret before it mows down your ally running past it, then switching to something else attacking you quickly).  Plus it still rocks as a campers weapon with cloak.

Good point, using Valiant you are less likely to be caught in those oh-shi.. moments when you start reloading and something pops up in your face. I was mainly testing against Geth though, and since they are much slower (pyros/primes/rocket troopers are SO slow), than Cerb/Reaper, I had more time to place my shots.

In emergency "quick i need to revive that dude then take out that dude then that phantom about to spawnkill someone then that stun that engineer before he puts down a turret then get out then revive another guy" slow reload really kills you.

[eldrjth]

the valiant is actually a little less accurate than the widow rifles. you have to centre youre headshots at the center of your targets head to ensure you hit. I think the projectiles travel slower making it more difficult to hit enemies that moving perpendicular to you compared to the widows. having said that the BW has a tendency to bounce shots i.e. stagger enemies for no dmg when you are sure it shouldve ohk them. 

on the balance the valiant kills quicker than the BW/W and I have little trouble breaking 100k points with it, even when competing against another good sniper. infact, I often get 110k+ without using consumables and beat out those using widows with sniper amp III+. they overshoot shields and health with almost every shot, where as I can usually down 2 guys before the widow reloads and fires again. its a little unfair imo, given how little recoil it has compared to how much dmg it can dish out, which is almost on par with the BW despite what the online spread sheet says. but note minor drawback I mentioned earlier, since its actually a tincy bit less accurate and fires slower projectiles but you will barely notice it.

Modifié par eldrjth, 23 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

Valiant and Black Widow are the two best sniper rifles, when they are good is situational, but I do agree that even on gold Valiant is more of the headshot machine, where as Black Widow is the power finisher rifle, which is often more practical to use.

[hihey54]

cut

You didn't mention your build.
Which upgrades did you choose when upgrading TC and the power/damage tree?
Because with a "dps" tactical cloak, you can kill every unshielded enemy with one Valiant headshot.