89 réponses à ce sujet

[Atheosis]

LeTtRrZ wrote...

A lot of people say that the Black Widow is better than the Valiant, but I disagree. I think they are neck-in-neck. They both have their strengths and weaknesses: the BW has power behind a single shot, a slow rate of fire, a high weight, and a slow reload time. It can take down heavy targets extremely quickly.

The valiant, on the other hand, has a faster rate of fire, a MUCH faster reload time, and a lower weight. It can drop a heavy target in about the same time as a BW.

As for the Mantis and the Widow, it's not even a question; the Widow is the better one by far. It may have a high weight, but once you start getting upgraded versions, you don't have to worry about its weight. The widow is the most powerful sniper rifle in the game per shot.

There is a question between the Mantis and Widow.  The Mantis weighs much, much less, while still being able to headshot enemies on Gold.  Sniper rifles is one of the few situations in the game where there are many very viable choices that all have differing strengths and weaknesses.  Really, the Mantis, Widow, Javelin, and Black Widow are all good options that are going to appeal to differing styles and builds.  The relative balance is great with these weapons.  If only all the other weapon categories would follow suit.

[Atheosis]

SinerAthin wrote...

Black Widow is best.

You can't oneshot shielded mobs on Gold so it beats Mantis.

It also has an inborn AP mod.


To summarize it all:

The Valiant and Black Widow are both superior to the Mantis. Choosing between the two of them is simply a matter of taste.

Again, weight.  You seem to be forgetting that.

[SinerAthin]

Atheosis wrote...


Again, weight.  You seem to be forgetting that.

Weight depends on what you play.

[Khaydarin135]

SinerAthin wrote...

Black Widow is best.

You can't oneshot shielded mobs on Gold so it beats Mantis.

It also has an inborn AP mod.


To summarize it all:

The Valiant and Black Widow are both superior to the Mantis. Choosing between the two of them is simply a matter of taste.

Can Black widow OS shielded enemy? I thought each enemy had a shield barrier that would negate 100% of the remaining damage on gold.

[SinerAthin]

Khaydarin135 wrote...



Can Black widow OS shielded enemy? I thought each enemy had a shield barrier that would negate 100% of the remaining damage on gold.

You can oneshot all armored/organic enemies, but you cannot oneshot shielded enemies because as long as there's 0.1 shield bar left, you'll only break the shield regardless of damage.

Even if you do 1000 damage versus a mob with 400 health and 500 shield, you'll only remove the 500 shield and not touch the health until next shot (unless you take too long and the shield has already begun regenrating).


The only shielded mob you can 'One Shot' on Gold is a Geth Pyro by first shooting through its chest/head and then into the gas tank.
But technically, you are first shooting the mob, destroying the shield. The bullet then continues on and hits the gas-tank, causing the unit to blow up.
 

[Atheosis]

SinerAthin wrote...

Atheosis wrote...


Again, weight.  You seem to be forgetting that.

Weight depends on what you play.

I'm aware, I'm just saying that the Mantis remains a viable choice for certain players because it is so light.

[Yamsandjams]

I'm all for the valiant. Blowing off three heads in 1 second is fairly satisfying.

[SinerAthin]

Atheosis wrote...


I'm aware, I'm just saying that the Mantis remains a viable choice for certain players because it is so light.

On Gold you want the extra firepower.

The enemies have an absurd amount of HP and you can't oneshot shielded enemies.


Also, on Gold you will probably be fighting in formation and with friends, working as a team, so the flexibility offered by the Mantis suddenly doesn't become as necessary. Instead, you want the raw brute power of the Black Widow.


The Mantis is a viable Random-Silver weapon though as the lower cooldown on Cloak becomes more important when you don't have friends watching your back, and in Gold remains a 'Poor Man's choice'.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 01 avril 2012 - 08:42 .

[Kastrenzo]

You Didn't Mention the Javelin.

If statistics are to be beileved, it does the highest base damage of any Sniper weapon, Superior Peircing than any other weapon unmodified, and has a Built in Adv Scope.

Then again it has the slight charge up delay before shots, but Personally I see it as more of a blessing than a curse.

Modifié par Kastrenzo, 01 avril 2012 - 08:49 .

[Terraflare]

Thanks everyone for your valuable input. I for one am glad sniper rifles (the class in general) is well balanced and many options are equally viable. Even rifles such as the raptor are decent on some classes and in certain situations.

I do not have the Javelin yet, but I'd imagine it performs similiarly to a Widow X (which I do have); roughly same damage, slightly more piercing, have strange scope, 0.25 second charge time, and heavier. It basically takes Widow's strengths and improves on it - doing more damage at X (but how many have Javelin X?), penetrating slightly further, safe to use without exposing yourself to enemy fire, while having the same weaknesses but worse -- bolt action type for less flexibility, heavy, fires slower.

Been testing exclusively my Widow X vs my BW over the last few days on various gold matches.

Plus points for BW:

1) MUCH easier to guarantee kills on shielded enemies (mid tier goons). The reason is the way energy drain works, if the target is slightly out of range of your targetting reticule, energy drain can be aimed but it'll occasionally do an AOE type damage to the target instead of doing the full shield drain. This VERY often leaves enemies with just a sliver of shields left (Occasionally: Rocket troopers, centurions, engineers, marauder. Always: Hunter, Pyro, Phantom).

There's a thread going around with some nice numbers on which enemies' can have their shields 1 shotted and which cant (conclusion, hunter, pyro, phantom nearly never). With the fact that ED can 'miss' and do less than full damage (hitting with splash rather than direct), there are many situations where you'd prefer 2 shots > 1 big shot.

Just yesterday on Firebase White vs Geth Gold I was watching the landing pad for rocket trooper spawns, and from the ladder area, ED sometimes does not lock, leaving rocket troopers with only 1 bar of shield left. With my Widow, I am completely powerless. With the BW, it is still dead with 2 quick headshots. Hunters too are the obvious problem. Sneaking up on you, 1 ED does not completely strip shields, and your widow shot is wasted. BW's first headshot will strip + stagger + reveal it, second headshot will guarantee it dead. Phantoms: Occasionally can pull of Cloak > First hard Headshot (staggers + barriers down) > Easy 2nd headshot for the fastest kill possible on phantom (Only using 1 cycle). With the Widow, will always need 2 cycles (ED > Shot (barriers down), reload, ED any recovered barrier > Shot)

Widow plus points: On smaller maps (glacier, reactor to some extent due to LOS issues), the Widow is MUCH safer to use. You only need to show yourself to the enemy for a SPLIT second every cloak cycle to do your maximum potential damage. I feel this is a huge strength vs reapers, solely because on gold just 1 second out of cover can = stagger + death by ravagers across the map. This makes the widow easier to use by quite a large margin.

Another reason why the widow is easier to use is because in order to realise the full potential of the BW you need to hit at LEAST 2/3 headshots (to be on par DPS wise with the widow), and 3/3 headshots (to surpass the Widow's DPS). 2 x 500 (BW) = 1000 (Widow, roughly speaking). Again, this is harder to pull off consistently.

Finally, the Widow can kill every regular toon with a cloaked bodyshot (again, making it easier and safer). The BW needs a headshot. But again, the rewards are far greater if you can headshot 2-3 toons in a row = 3 toons dead in each cycle.

Modifié par Terraflare, 01 avril 2012 - 09:25 .

[xiaoassassin]

A Cloaked Infil shot with the Valiant I is more than enough to break past the shields of a Gold Hunter. A follow up shot will kill. With that in mind, there's really no reason not to use the Valiant over the other sniper rifles. I outpace Widow/Mantis snipers by nearly 3x their score on a consistent basis because I just kill way way faster than they do. This is with the Quarian Infiltrator against Salarian Infils. Even with their Energy Drain helping their one-shots, they still can't catch up to the headshotting machine that is the Valiant.

Valiant is still the best choice for Infiltrators on Gold.

[Tyriael_Soban]

 My weapon of choice right now as an infiltrator (Quarian) is the N7-Valiant, i can squeeze off 3 shots without having to stress about the headshot that dosnt hurt them, and if that happens i dont suffer a massive penalty i just save the 2 rounds and pick another guy, i still carry the M5-Phalanx as a sidearm, but with the thermal clip 5 mod on the Valiant i actually rarely pull said sidearm out, that being said, the Valiant seems to offer the best balance of firepower to wight compared to anything but a Black Widow, and like the BW there is a reduced penalty for missing a shot.
The Valiant also dosnt seem to benefit a whole lot, apart from the ability to see through smoke from scope mods, so it does leave a mod slot open to other things like spare clips.

ive only seen a javelin in action once on multiplayer and it did not leave a good impression ... it was lasting though lol, maybe the guy using it was terrible - but i was just nailing him to the floor with my N7 Valiant I.

personally i loved the M98-Widow I, but sometimes i can be playing on a bronze or silver match and ill take a shot with the Widow its a perfect headshot (like, when you nail a geth trooper and he gets knocked back and shakes his head) - but ill deal ZERO damage, ill reload and pick a new guy, take the shot and kill him but still wont be able to harm the guy i shot first ... i dont know what it is, cause then ill pull out a sidearm (ive seen alot of infiltrators dont carry one, but when i was using a widow it was easier to pull my Phalanx out to kill at close range than try and line up a shot after a reload) 3 shots to the head on silver and hes gone ... what the hell is with that?

i did use the mantis and i found it was a middling weapon personally, lighter weight allowed far greater flexibility compared to the widow - which i was pretty much locked into cover if i wanted to reload while waiting for cloak, thats also the drawback, due to the lower weight it hits like a wet paper towel on higher level enemies and higher challenge levels.

Ive yet to win a Black Widow from my Specter packs ... i swear theyre trolling me with useless weapon upgrades like stability dampeners for my assault rifle, or a M8-Avenger upgrade or the M300-Claymore 

the M97-Viper is just horrible from what ive seen, ive had a few matches where there was (like one or two) Viper user(s) who did even remotely decently ... but from what ive done myself with it even with a scope mod the recoil is bad, i spend more time re-centering the cross-hairs than taking shots and due to that one factor ... not to mention its lower damage output compared to the Valiant, i just personally cant stand its jittery cross-hairs makes the rate of fire increase compared to other weapons totally pointless. (i also think the weapon card is wrong for the Viper, since it sits its rate of fire down around the same place as the M98-Widow)

Ive used an M13-Raptor (lolzglorifiedassaultriflewithascopelolz) on silver, point and case if you want an accurate assault rifle ... take the goddamn M76-Mattock its only slightly heavier, the Raptor is totally useless asides to its fairly low recoil and ability to score multiple headshots on a single clip, compared to ALL of the other sniper weapons it has the stopping power of a soggy piece of toast and youre liable to spend the entire clip trying to kill anything with shields on silver.
i stand by the first statement ... its literally nothing more than a glorified assault rifle with a scope and i certainly wouldnt use it on anything other than bronze after that experience, and if you use it ... on anything higher than bronze, your entire team should laugh at you. 

Edited: Conversion to advanced editor screwed up paragraphs, some text editing.

Modifié par Tyriael_Soban, 01 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[Khaydarin135]

@ teraflare =)
The problem with all these reasoning is that you are comparing sniper assuming you hit your target.
You should consider another essential factor. Snipping is also about missing your target and this latter impact sniper efficiency.

Player reaction upon missed target is different from a sniper to another.


Missing a target with a N-7 valiant is nothing compared to missing a target with a widow. And therefore, sniper efficiency IS related to players skill not just to raw stats.
Widow is a stressfull weapon
N-7 is not

("This bullet has your name on it... No wait This one... Im pretty SURE THIS ONE HAS YOUR NAME ON IT" quote from SC2 sniper)

If you compare juste stats, then we have to assume players have a 100% percent pinpoint accuracy which is rarely the case.

So another factor to take into account is:
Missed target handicap.

Modifié par Khaydarin135, 01 avril 2012 - 09:55 .

[HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

 am i the only1 canceling all and every reload-animation with my loved black widow ll (+piercemod&barrelextender) in this thread?  like this, my "angela" (yes - its one of the very few guns in my 18 years of shooter-games-experience (am 27), that i have gaven a nickname outta loving it that much - i think this says enough about it...) has a reloadtime of approx. 0.8 seconds - i use the full reload-animation only as swaggy taunt right in front a corpse, after taking down that foe with it from this close-range out - so in other words: every1z bw-drawback-argumenting with its "reloadtimes length" is pointless to me and my angela  -plus: just to make sure every1 gets it, the bw has 1.: an "artificial absolute zero recoil" (as unlike the very most other guns in me3 (including the valiant), when aiming down the sights the character moves the muzzle/gun/crosshair after each shot automatically in2 the position it was at the last shot again & finishes this exact right before you are able to shoot again - so all shots are "presetted" to hit the exact same spot (and also that little crosshair/muzzle-jump aint 2much trouble for the pure looking through the scope)) 2.: it fires precise to where you point the absolute center of [edit: both, the hip-sight-crosshair and] the sniper-scope-crosshair (unlike the valiant) while 3.: unlike lesser guns (like the valiant) it produces an even larger ballistic impact area (what in gamer-words means: the space that will be hitted/ filled with the shot is larger, so its harder to miss a shot) 4.: the bw-shots "impact-occurrance-delay" is the least possible (the bullets travel-time is shortest) (unlike with other guns - like the valiant) 5.: the "me3-sniper-rifle no-scoping-damage-penality" doesnt hurt that much with the bw due to the higher damage per shot  !!and!!  (unlike the valiant) it produces 2 stagger-animations (1 with the 1st, 1 with da 3rd round) to most hardened/ barriered targets from max-firerate-fire out (means that the hitted target wont escape during my 0,8 second reload 4sure - especially useful for hipfire, as you can follow up with meele after the last round without recieving any meele whatsoever) - so from terms of "beneficial aspects of firing a round" out, like damage, areal-ballistic, flight-ballistic, precision, recover, effect-on-target, tactical fitting-in with the natural behaviour of the firing player-characters in this game - the bw is just superior  -point-  - the other thing though is - yep, the valiant still rocks more  -and yep, without to much of unluckyness the results are even very much impressive along with this greater rocking-fun  -its just not a that good gun like the bw but a sniperifle that replaces a heavy pistol along with it xtremely well - and ey, again - this really rocks! but at least in that moments you have been taking down wielding it and have failed to defend yours with it, you should know that this is because that rocking has its natural limits that can reveal pretty soon - while wielding the better gun in a situation and the situation that directly led to it - plus the freedom of tactical behaviour "on the field" (like with bw, more different behaveing not backup but secondary firearm and the patient battlefield analysis/awareness that comes about automatically along with it) practically no limits has - unlike "trying to rock with a limited manner at all costs".  -p.s.: i am german (even harder - prussian...) and use my bw mainly only on my hs - as my style more dominating with the better gun is - instead-a hideing! - do you have any idea of how dominating it is to continously "spam precision-heavy-hits" the whole match through - (and yeah, thats right - hits - not just shots, like maybe with sum other gun...) ?  well, i tell ya how dominating it is in precision: trust me, its instant-dominating! and there is not more a gun can do for you, than beeing complete suited for xact this  -point- 

Modifié par HELLHOUND_ROCKO, 30 mai 2012 - 12:54 .

[Creakazoid]

Tl;dr Mr. Text Wall. Tl;dr. Learn to use paragraphs.