I'm not a fan of it. I think it's an unnecessary contrivance and distracts from the rest of the story. It would require some pretty stellar writing to pull off without feeling like being enigmatic for the sake of being enigmatic.
Please tell me there are some people who aren't on the Indoctrination bandwagon
Débuté par
ShepardTheHopeful
, mars 23 2012 02:11
Retour en haut
#127
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:55
Janus382
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SamFlagg wrote...
*peers up from the grassy knoll* Excellent.
Back to actual conversation....I think all I want the Indoc folks to do is prepare themselves for the possibility that a retcon happens instead of indoctrination, and make mental peace with the fact that that doesn't have to be a bad thing. (And I mean an actual retcon, not one where we get a bunch of pasted in lines of dialogue that leave us with the same rainbow of 'choices' that destroy the relays and kill shepard no matter what that we have now)
And I feel we should all prepare ourselves for "one where we get a bunch of pasted in lines of dialogue that leave us with the same rainbow of 'choices' that destroy the relays and kill shepard no matter what that we have now"... plus maybe a text-dump epilogue.
Modifié par Janus382, 23 mars 2012 - 02:56 .
#128
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:55
Rage735
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Suddenly everyone denies ever riding the wagon!
#129
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:55
Shaknbac0n
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I like the theory, and it actually makes sense if you think about it, but I doubt that it's true at all.
Shepard wakes up from "indoctrination" and then what? He/she obviously has to go back into the Citadel, and what happens then? If Bioware does go with it, then it would seem like a complete cop out to me at this point.
If Bioware actually wrote it into the game before hand, I do think that it would have made for a very interesting plot device.
Shepard wakes up from "indoctrination" and then what? He/she obviously has to go back into the Citadel, and what happens then? If Bioware does go with it, then it would seem like a complete cop out to me at this point.
If Bioware actually wrote it into the game before hand, I do think that it would have made for a very interesting plot device.
#130
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:56
Nageth
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Janus382 wrote...
SamFlagg wrote...
*peers up from the grassy knoll* Excellent.
Back to actual conversation....I think all I want the Indoc folks to do is prepare themselves for the possibility that a retcon happens instead of indoctrination, and make mental peace with the fact that that doesn't have to be a bad thing. (And I mean an actual retcon, not one where we get a bunch of pasted in lines of dialogue that leave us with the same rainbow of 'choices' that destroy the relays and kill shepard no matter what that we have now)
And I feel we should prepare ourselves for "one where we get a bunch of pasted in lines of dialogue that leave us with the same rainbow of 'choices' that destroy the relays and kill shepard no matter what that we have now"... plus a text-dump epilogue.
Doubt it will be a text dump but I agree. We'll probably get a slightly expanded ending that explains some of the vague bits.
#131
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:56
WizenSlinky0
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Malanek999 wrote...
Perhaps it is the language extremes that are the problem. You see I think it was really clever and that they were not preposterous straw grabs at all. Right at the start, before actually taking the time to think about it, I thought it was complete nonsense. Then after examining all the evidence I thought it was quite likely, it made a lot of sense. But I would never have said it was fact until we actually got something about it from bioware.
Now, I don't think that is what they intended but that is from Ray and Casey speaking outside the game. I suspect they may well have had it in the back of their minds but would just rather have left everything ambigious without even making up their own minds. Howvere I still think on the basis of evidence it (or some variation) makes a much stronger logical case than not having it.
Well that's why I added it made some interesting finds. I've watched many of the videos, read the threads (it's only fair!) and such. There are some points made that have made me think twice, dig deeper, and think more about it. I think the most interesting point made out of all them, for me, was the comparison between the Rachni and the dream sequences. It was somewhat of an ingenious look at it.
But there are several scenes and things about the endings that have very incomprehensible reasonings to me under the indoctrination theory.
We'll have to disagree that having it makes the endings objectionably better than not. To be honest I feel the theory tends to invalidate your journey even more than the endings we got. But that's a subjective interpretation.
#132
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:56
DrFrankenseuss
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The indoctrination theory basically says the trilogy ends with Shep lying in rubble in London after either giving into or resisting reaper indoctrination. I find it more illogical that Bioware would be pleased with that ending more than one that at least halfassedly tries to make a resolution to the series.
#133
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:56
SamFlagg
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jarrettwold wrote...
SamFlagg wrote...
*peers up from the grassy knoll* Excellent.
Back to actual conversation....I think all I want the Indoc folks to do is prepare themselves for the possibility that a retcon happens instead of indoctrination, and make mental peace with the fact that that doesn't have to be a bad thing.
XD
Yea, a retcon seems very, very likely.
And just to be fair and honest, I'm personally more invested \\ interested in a retcon that makes the options we have meaningfully different and adds the "go to hell" option.
That said I'm prepared to take the Indoc ending if that's what happens. I just would like to see a peaceable outcome among the indoc folks if we get a major retcon instead.
#134
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:57
Cross429
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[quote]ShepardTheHopeful wrote...
If you step a back moment you see that the situation Shepard finds
himself in (an elevator bathed in white light leading you to a magic
room with three giant switches which determine the fate of the galaxy in
three pre-determined ways, conveniently built for Shep before he
arrives), you have to think either: 1) The writing here is terrible or
2) This is the "Indoctrination" we've heard so much about the past three
games. When have we known Bioware to be guilty of #1?
You can assume that, but you'd be wrong.
Anyone posting here unwilling to address the below evidence is simply dismissing the "main character having a dream" cliche - which is understandable - but not consistent with a game which has hinted at the compromise of Shepard's mind leading up to all those "oily shadows" and "ghostly voices" haunting his last "save the boy" dream and the final, UI-same-as-dream-state conclusion. I can't believe that people are willing to dismiss this so casually: it was obviously intended to make us think about it, even if it wasn't the intended ending.
http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/2/
http://www.giantbomb...ence/35-539298/
Everyone here is saying "no" based on a cliche and the idea that we're grasping at straws - but these straws do indeed make a sweater. The "Final Hours" confirms that Bioware wanted to create speculation! But why?
So a DLC could be released giving us "The Truth" after a period of argument, debate, and fan intrigue. All the outrage has simply resulted in an early announcement.
If you step a back moment you see that the situation Shepard finds
himself in (an elevator bathed in white light leading you to a magic
room with three giant switches which determine the fate of the galaxy in
three pre-determined ways, conveniently built for Shep before he
arrives), you have to think either: 1) The writing here is terrible or
2) This is the "Indoctrination" we've heard so much about the past three
games. When have we known Bioware to be guilty of #1?
You can assume that, but you'd be wrong.
Anyone posting here unwilling to address the below evidence is simply dismissing the "main character having a dream" cliche - which is understandable - but not consistent with a game which has hinted at the compromise of Shepard's mind leading up to all those "oily shadows" and "ghostly voices" haunting his last "save the boy" dream and the final, UI-same-as-dream-state conclusion. I can't believe that people are willing to dismiss this so casually: it was obviously intended to make us think about it, even if it wasn't the intended ending.
http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/2/
http://www.giantbomb...ence/35-539298/
Everyone here is saying "no" based on a cliche and the idea that we're grasping at straws - but these straws do indeed make a sweater. The "Final Hours" confirms that Bioware wanted to create speculation! But why?
So a DLC could be released giving us "The Truth" after a period of argument, debate, and fan intrigue. All the outrage has simply resulted in an early announcement.
#135
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:58
SamFlagg
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Janus382 wrote...
SamFlagg wrote...
*peers up from the grassy knoll* Excellent.
Back to actual conversation....I think all I want the Indoc folks to do is prepare themselves for the possibility that a retcon happens instead of indoctrination, and make mental peace with the fact that that doesn't have to be a bad thing. (And I mean an actual retcon, not one where we get a bunch of pasted in lines of dialogue that leave us with the same rainbow of 'choices' that destroy the relays and kill shepard no matter what that we have now)
And I feel we should all prepare ourselves for "one where we get a bunch of pasted in lines of dialogue that leave us with the same rainbow of 'choices' that destroy the relays and kill shepard no matter what that we have now"... plus maybe a text-dump epilogue.
I prefer we don't prepare for that so the rage over that possibility is genuine.
#136
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:58
The_Other_M
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I'm not.
If anything, the "Indoctrination Theory" just pisses me off more.
If anything, the "Indoctrination Theory" just pisses me off more.
#137
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
Raxxman
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jarrettwold wrote...
Tyrzun wrote...
It's not a theory because it is logical and it has ZERO holes in it which makes it the right answer.
It's not logical at all. As a storytelling tool, it makes no sense in that if you've been indoctrinated the whole time, then were any of the decisions yours?
It's just something stitched together by somebody on youtube, then watched while ignoring all the information contrary to the argument. It's confirmation bias. That's all.
This really. IT requires a lot of suppostion, and IT believers often have a hard time discerning conjecture from fact, often feeling quite venomously that their interperation can only be the right one.
#138
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
Orthodox Infidel
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The Indoctrination Theories (I use plural because there's really more than one now) all implicitly rest on Bioware's intent, which we still really don't know about.
If Bioware's intent was that Shepard was indoctrinated during that ending sequence, then at least some of those people are right.
If Bioware's intent really was "LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE" then it's valid in some sense because that sequence has no actual concrete meaning. And it's seductive because it can explain away every plot hole as being a hallucination or blatant lie.
If Bioware's intent was anything else, then no, it doesn't hold water, and we're left with the uncomfortable conclusion that Indoctrination Theorists don't want to accept: Bioware actually did produce a game where the last five minutes don't match the last five years.
If Bioware's intent was that Shepard was indoctrinated during that ending sequence, then at least some of those people are right.
If Bioware's intent really was "LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE" then it's valid in some sense because that sequence has no actual concrete meaning. And it's seductive because it can explain away every plot hole as being a hallucination or blatant lie.
If Bioware's intent was anything else, then no, it doesn't hold water, and we're left with the uncomfortable conclusion that Indoctrination Theorists don't want to accept: Bioware actually did produce a game where the last five minutes don't match the last five years.
#139
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
lex0r11
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So i support Indoc Theory.ShepardTheHopeful wrote...
Lmaoboat wrote...
Not on it, wish I was. Sweet, blissful denial.
That made me laugh I'm right there with you Ignorance truely is bliss wish we could all just look at the indoctrination theory and think it makes perfect sense. But alas we are here questioning why the theory to the ending with plotholes has as many plotholes as the ending itself.
Reaper: SHEPARD YOU ARE UNDER MY CONTROL
Shepard: Yes.....master
Reaper: I COMMAND YOU TO DESTROY US, TAKE COMPLETE CONTROL OF US, OR MERGE US WITH HUMANITY DESTROYING US AND MAKING YOU THE LEAD CONSCIOUSNESS ABUSING OUR SYNTHETIC ABILITIES!
Shepard:....umm....ok.
Ah those crazy reapers and their logic.
But Indoc Theory is not a fact, it is a theory.
If indocrination is taking place, the whole catalyst talk with his 3 choices is irrelevant, because things playing out in the mind will not affect anyhintg outside of it other than the process of 'full-on' control.
If someone talks about Indoc Theory and calims the Colorchoices to be real at the same time, the person is creating a plothole the theory itself didn't have. But we don't know how Indoctrination really works other than the short description from the codex ingame.
I believe it is currently a good way to implement the demanded "new endgame" as a DLC. Just saying. I just hope people actually want something changed to the endings, nit just textbox epilogue.
So please, keep arguing with people who claim it as a fact, i will be the first to help you. Other than that, it's a theory, nothing more. The appearance of it being a cult is simply the result of 'fact claimers' coming into the outside threads.
And please, if you have to voice an opinion about anything, do it with arguements and not with
John Locke N7 wrote...
its obviously not true. anyone one who believes it is just stupid
I mean seriously?
#140
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
YeGodz
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Not on that particular bandwagon...although it gets credit for being a clever interpretation.
Singularity FTW.
Singularity FTW.
#141
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
Cross429
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Apologies for the double post. Correct formatting:
If you step a back moment you see that the situation Shepard finds himself in (an elevator bathed in white light leading you to a magic room with three giant switches which determine the fate of the galaxy in three pre-determined ways, conveniently built for Shep before he arrives), you have to think either: 1) The writing here is terrible or
2) This is the "Indoctrination" we've heard so much about the past three games. When have we known Bioware to be guilty of #1?
You can assume that, but you'd be wrong.
Anyone posting here unwilling to address the below evidence is simply dismissing the "main character having a dream" cliche - which is understandable - but not consistent with a game which has hinted at the compromise of Shepard's mind leading up to all those "oily shadows" and "ghostly voices" haunting his last "save the boy" dream and the final, UI-same-as-dream-state conclusion. I can't believe that people are willing to dismiss this so casually: it was obviously intended to make us think about it, even if it wasn't the intended ending.
http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/2/
http://www.giantbomb...ence/35-539298/
Everyone here is saying "no" based on a cliche and the idea that we're grasping at straws - but these straws do indeed make a sweater. The "Final Hours" confirms that Bioware wanted to create speculation! But why?
So a DLC could be released giving us "The Truth" after a period of argument, debate, and fan intrigue. All the outrage has simply resulted in an early announcement.
If you step a back moment you see that the situation Shepard finds himself in (an elevator bathed in white light leading you to a magic room with three giant switches which determine the fate of the galaxy in three pre-determined ways, conveniently built for Shep before he arrives), you have to think either: 1) The writing here is terrible or
2) This is the "Indoctrination" we've heard so much about the past three games. When have we known Bioware to be guilty of #1?
You can assume that, but you'd be wrong.
Anyone posting here unwilling to address the below evidence is simply dismissing the "main character having a dream" cliche - which is understandable - but not consistent with a game which has hinted at the compromise of Shepard's mind leading up to all those "oily shadows" and "ghostly voices" haunting his last "save the boy" dream and the final, UI-same-as-dream-state conclusion. I can't believe that people are willing to dismiss this so casually: it was obviously intended to make us think about it, even if it wasn't the intended ending.
http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/2/
http://www.giantbomb...ence/35-539298/
Everyone here is saying "no" based on a cliche and the idea that we're grasping at straws - but these straws do indeed make a sweater. The "Final Hours" confirms that Bioware wanted to create speculation! But why?
So a DLC could be released giving us "The Truth" after a period of argument, debate, and fan intrigue. All the outrage has simply resulted in an early announcement.
#142
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
uh-oh0331
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I dont want to believe it but there are some convincing videos on youtube. Also someone mentioned that Bioware apparently wanted to do a segment where Shep gets indoctrinated but apparently they couldnt do that (technical difficulties/restrictions). They said that they saw this on the "final hours app". I just wish that Bioware would release an official statement already, the speculation and plot holes are driving me crazy.
#143
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
ArkkAngel007
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ShepardTheHopeful wrote...
No I fully understand it I just have a different theory to the whole thing it's also mentioned has the same plot hole fills and counters the indoctrination theory. I tried to explain it only as a second viewpoint but a lot of indoctrination fans are not fond of different theories lol
Depends on who you bring it up with. Right now, it's defense mode for the most part. So a change may not be most welcome. However, that theory isn't even kept straight amongst the members. Everyone believes something different in some way.
Personally, I'd welcome your opinion. I'm sorry if I seemed a bit aggressive, but this has been going on all week with one side telling the IT folks to shut up and the other trying to prove in some furor that it's the only path.
Gotta love BSN.
#144
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
Giga Drill BREAKER
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I'm not bothered either way as long as we get a proper ending
#145
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 02:59
Andy Roark
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Yea - I'm still on "The Endings Just Suck" bandwagon. Otherwise known as the
"Mean spirited, overly sadistic and done-simply-in-the-name-of-trying-to-claim-videogames-are-art-so-I-can-not-feel-embarrassed-about-what-I-do-for-a-living ending" bandwagon.
Your mileage may vary but this bandwagon suits me pretty well.
"Mean spirited, overly sadistic and done-simply-in-the-name-of-trying-to-claim-videogames-are-art-so-I-can-not-feel-embarrassed-about-what-I-do-for-a-living ending" bandwagon.
Your mileage may vary but this bandwagon suits me pretty well.
#146
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 03:01
Vromrig
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Only possible solution. Evidence strongly supports.
If not adhered to, unlikely ending will suffice.
If not adhered to, unlikely ending will suffice.
#147
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 03:01
Vandalisme
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uh-oh0331 wrote...
I dont want to believe it but there are some convincing videos on youtube. Also someone mentioned that Bioware apparently wanted to do a segment where Shep gets indoctrinated but apparently they couldnt do that (technical difficulties/restrictions). They said that they saw this on the "final hours app". I just wish that Bioware would release an official statement already, the speculation and plot holes are driving me crazy.
My thoughts exactly until i bought the final hours app myself and saw this spreadsheet :
http://i.imgur.com/B3lTt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VElWC.jpg
im counting that as evidence against indoc. "crucible will cause galactic dark age"
Modifié par Vandalisme, 23 mars 2012 - 03:07 .
#148
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 03:01
KlownSnypr
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I'm not..... oh wait yes I am.(obviously didn't bother reading the OP or anyone's post)
Regardless of the feelings BW will most likely utilize the hype behind that theory, if it wasn't planned already since BW is known to have solid continuity throughout their games and even this one up to the very end. So it begs the question what is up with the lack of continuity all of the sudden?
Regardless of the feelings BW will most likely utilize the hype behind that theory, if it wasn't planned already since BW is known to have solid continuity throughout their games and even this one up to the very end. So it begs the question what is up with the lack of continuity all of the sudden?
#149
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 03:02
Janus382
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SamFlagg wrote...
I prefer we don't prepare for that so the rage over that possibility is genuine.
That is a valid point
I, too, would prefer a total rewrite or a retcon for a "shove it, godchild" option, with Indoc Theory being a distantly acceptable option. Anything less would be inadequate, imo.
Modifié par Janus382, 23 mars 2012 - 03:02 .
#150
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 03:02
generalleo03
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Ocum's Razor is informative here. I think the most likely explanation is that BioWare was rushed, and they didn't have time to do the ending they wanted. Final Hours supports this with the whole not even having the ending planned out by November. I think they didn't get a long enough extension from EA, and had to come up with an ending they could actually finish in say 2-3 months, and that's how we ended up here (not to mention all the Chekov's guns that never fired).
