261 réponses à ce sujet

[NormanRawn]

I don't agree with it. I'm convinced people are looking for a way to salvage their love for ME, and try to make sense of an ending that opened up so many problems, and the indoctrination theory fits this requirement.

[I_Jedi]

I like the indoctrination theory.

[sedrikhcain]

The thing to remember about the indoctrination theory is that stated primary rationale for it among more than a few users is, basically, "that ending was so bad that my mind flat out rejects the notion that there isn't something I've missed that explains it all away."

It's almost like in "The Matrix", where the machines came up with a Utopian simulation but the organic minds rejected it as too perfect -- only in ME3's scenario the simulation is too screwed up for people to take.

[Casuist]

Indoctrination answers some open questions about the plot very crudely, and opens up others which are just as dire if not more so. The "just kidding" plot twist also toys with the player in unpleasant ways, and it would be aggravating to see such a twist implemented unless it simply involved the ending sequence (i.e. conduit and thereafter).

So.... not on the bandwagon. At all.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

I originally did make a counter to the indoctrination theory and I'm starting to come up with a theory on my own this one is rough but it's the best I've got so far it does need some tweaks though

http://social.biowar.../index/10468976 There just logical counters now but in a day or so I'll have a legitimate theory to spread to the forum.

[killnoob]

there's a simpler explanation: bioware screwed-up the writing of ME3 ending. How does that sound?

[MelancholyV]

I'm not buying the indoctrination theory, but I also have no way of explaining the ending besides the redundant "it's terrible writing." So rather than coming up with anything, I just flail around in my chair and try to forget it ever happened.

[ArkkAngel007]

Dreogan wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

 Seriously it's not that great a theory a ton of time and effort was indeed made to it but there's too many other factors to deem it the best theory ever and that Bioware should do it. Am I seriously alone in NOT wanting the indoctrination theory to be the new ending? 

Same here, OP.  I get more irritated by IDT spam than I do by the Mass Effect Twitter page.

And you know what's worse than IDT spam (which is ridiculous)?  All the hateful spam directed at them because people feel they have the right to trash other's opinion on an already **** ending.  Wake up and smell the ashes: there's nothing to defend.  It's an open playing field for everyone, not just your opinion. 

I see people whine about how they are getting hated on for wanting happier endings or a change to the endings for clarity, but the same people go after one side or the other on a piece of bloody speculation.

That I think is more irritating than people voicing a harmless opinion.

My view is if you have an opinion, be prepared to defend it. If you support indoctrination, I will subvert the very foundation of your theory: its relevance.

But there is a difference in engaging in a healthy debate and putting down people for having a different opinion.

And the IT supporters that are here: don't try to prove it in here.  If people want to know about it, they can find it themselves.  Coming into a thread about people having an issue with the IT propaganda to further spread IT propaganda is an asinine decision.

[jarrettwold]

SamFlagg wrote...
And just to be fair and honest, I'm personally more invested interested in a retcon that makes the options we have meaningfully different and adds the "go to hell" option.

I've wanted the keepers retconned, tbh.  They're as old as the Reapers.  They're everywhere in the Citadel.  The Protheans removed their enslavement to the Reapers.  They kill themselves if anyone gets near or captures them.  Add some foreshadowing with some missions of the non-ending DLC, add them to the ending DLC.  If Bioware wants to keep the star child they could explain it to you via the keepers voice.  They could ditch star child and make the keepers detached watchers of multiple cycles of organicide... literally keepers of the weapon (the citadel) to defeat the reapers.  They could become a great big source of exposition.

I think that would work a lot better than indoc theory.

[darkcerb]

Beats taking the endings at face value.

[Dreogan]

sedrikhcain wrote...

The thing to remember about the indoctrination theory is that stated primary rationale for it among more than a few users is, basically, "that ending was so bad that my mind flat out rejects the notion that there isn't something I've missed that explains it all away."

It's almost like in "The Matrix", where the machines came up with a Utopian simulation but the organic minds rejected it as too perfect -- only in ME3's scenario the simulation is too screwed up for people to take.

The shattering of the suspension of disbelief does really crazy things. What we have here is nothing more than the result of a catastrophic failure of storytelling.

[DrFrankenseuss]

Vandalisme wrote...

uh-oh0331 wrote...

I dont want to believe it but there are some convincing videos on youtube. Also someone mentioned that Bioware apparently wanted to do a segment where Shep gets indoctrinated but apparently they couldnt do that (technical difficulties/restrictions). They said that they saw this on the "final hours app". I just wish that Bioware would release an official statement already, the speculation and plot holes are driving me crazy.

My thoughts exactly until i bought the final hours app myself and saw this spreadsheet : 
http://i.imgur.com/VElWC.jpg 
im counting that as evidence against indoc. "crucible will cause galactic dark age"

Trolololololo well there we go. 

[Turtlicious]

Stygian1 wrote...

never believed it

But if bioware rolled with it I would not complain.

[Nageth]

darkcerb wrote...

Beats taking the endings at face value.

No. No it doesn't.

[Billabong2011]

Dhraconus wrote...

I'm not on the "bandwagon." I don't believe it is 'true' for a second. There is just no good reason to believe Bioware intended it and lots of reason to believe they didn't.

On the other hand it is 'plausible' as a theory and could be used as a way to expand the ending and fix many of the issues. (but this would be a post hoc explanation and not an original intention)

It wouldn't be my preferred 'fix' but if it comes to be... meh.

This post. All of it. 

[D1ck1e]

I still think the most plausible avenue is the Indoctrination.

[SamFlagg]

Janus382 wrote...

SamFlagg wrote...

I prefer we don't prepare for that so the rage over that possibility is genuine.

That is a valid point   I, too, would prefer a total rewrite or a retcon for a "shove it, godchild" option, with Indoc Theory being a distantly acceptable option.  Anything less would be inadequate, imo.

I mean realistically, there aren't a whole lot of options outside of retcon what happens in the Godchild scene and go down the indoctrination route.

I think removal of the GodChild is probably off the table, and honestly most of the people upset about the endings liked everything from the Harbinger Beam to the death of Anderson.

The main thing I worry about with the indoctrination theory is that the resolution to such a thing may infact just funnel us further into a single ending instead of farther away from that.

[recentio]

It's not my favorite solution...mostly because it requires looking too deeply into tiny details to be set up and if used it would make fools of anyone who likes the current ending. You have to put in a little obsessiveness to see it -- not something the average players would do on their one play through, I think.

I find it appealing as a concrete explanation for dismissing the ending. But, what then? Pandora's Box?

And, after all of BW's defensive, even a touch angry (though understandably so) PR work, the "confirmed fake" behind-the-scenes leak, the Final Hours app notes -- it's clear BW did not intend the IT. Using it would be a mistake, I think. Not because it isn't clever but because, for as little clear set up for it as there is in-game, it might instill just as much WTF in the average player as the current not-set-up ending does.

But, who knows. We'll find out what BW does -- this time with their entire writing team, I hope -- next month, I guess.

Modifié par recentio, 23 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

[Billabong2011]

MelancholyV wrote...

I'm not buying the indoctrination theory, but I also have no way of explaining the ending besides the redundant "it's terrible writing." So rather than coming up with anything, I just flail around in my chair and try to forget it ever happened.

And this post applies to me too. 

[darkcerb]

Nageth wrote...

darkcerb wrote...

Beats taking the endings at face value.

No. No it doesn't.

Yes, yes it does.

Opinions are great arn't they?

If you're happy with deus ex machina and mass teleportation of charecters/ships for convenience good for you.

There's either more to it, or it's a **** ending that I personally wont accept as the ending to my story.

Modifié par darkcerb, 23 mars 2012 - 03:10 .

[shepskisaac]

*raises hand* Never been, won't be unless Bioware says so. To me it's just "Desperation Theory" really. Not ill-intended, but people just want to delude themselves

[Dreogan]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

 Seriously it's not that great a theory a ton of time and effort was indeed made to it but there's too many other factors to deem it the best theory ever and that Bioware should do it. Am I seriously alone in NOT wanting the indoctrination theory to be the new ending? 

Same here, OP.  I get more irritated by IDT spam than I do by the Mass Effect Twitter page.

And you know what's worse than IDT spam (which is ridiculous)?  All the hateful spam directed at them because people feel they have the right to trash other's opinion on an already **** ending.  Wake up and smell the ashes: there's nothing to defend.  It's an open playing field for everyone, not just your opinion. 

I see people whine about how they are getting hated on for wanting happier endings or a change to the endings for clarity, but the same people go after one side or the other on a piece of bloody speculation.

That I think is more irritating than people voicing a harmless opinion.

My view is if you have an opinion, be prepared to defend it. If you support indoctrination, I will subvert the very foundation of your theory: its relevance.

But there is a difference in engaging in a healthy debate and putting down people for having a different opinion.

And the IT supporters that are here: don't try to prove it in here.  If people want to know about it, they can find it themselves.  Coming into a thread about people having an issue with the IT propaganda to further spread IT propaganda is an asinine decision.

Since when should I simply leave things at "different opinion?" Exactly why is everyone's opinion "valid?" There are asinine opinions to hold, just as there are wrong opinions to hold. Indoctrination is nothing more than an escapist (from the realities of a crushingly disappointing end) dream; something so outside the structure of the series' straight-line plot that if it were true it still points to the failure of Bioware's storytelling. Note I do not say writing. I insult the substance deeper than simple words on a page: the story. 

Oh, sure, it might make sense for some people. But the very fact that the ending works for so few people means what they put in the game breaks the suspension of disbelief of much of their intended audience. This is a capital offense in storytelling. There is absolutely no reason we should prop Bioware up on a pedestal for their "deep" ending which they did not properly lead in, develop, or present.

Modifié par Dreogan, 23 mars 2012 - 03:41 .

[Quietness]

 I'm not, i believe in  bad writing and plot holes.

[FlyingCow371]

It's an interesting theory. Bioware definitely didn't plan it. If they did, it would've been resolved in game and, if fleshed out a bit and followed by an actual solid ending, would've been one of the best twists in recent video games...probably the best since kotor.

But again, if it was the intent then they released a completely unfinished game, and even with the state of the current ending I think better of bioware than that.

We'll probably get something else for whatever content they are planning. It seems like they really want those relays to be destroyed, so that'll probably happen regardless.

Text dump epilogue is fine. Baldur's gate II:ToB did that pretty well. DA:O too. They can do something worthwhile with that. They just need to add in a "screw you, reaper kid" choice, a way to disable the reapers without genocide vs. geth (red), making everybody a reaper (green, they were always trying to build organic/synthetic hybrids...and you just did it for them), or becoming corrupted (blue). Other things that would be nice, if possible, include: not making the entire fleet crash into earth and kill everybody on the planet you were trying to save (from relay explosion making ships, like normandy, crash). And more resolution with crew, but text dump epilogue can handle that and the fates of other races/planets.

[jarrettwold]

Bigger question is, do they keep the relays destruction in? If that's in, I think people still end up pissed off.