261 réponses à ce sujet

[Repossessor]

Dreogan wrote...

Repossessor wrote...

The ME3 Final Hours doc informs us that in November they dropped gameplay at the end where "Shepard would fall under full reaper control". IMHO This was always the strongest evidence for indoc-theory, regardless if they used it or not. At the very least, it proves that the devs where going with indoctrination in the game right up to a mere few months before the game was released, whether or not it was actually used. It just grates me that people so confidentially say that no form of indoc was planned by Bioware, it seems so highly unfair and biased, when there is clear proof they had done so (again, whether or not it was cut; just making a point here).

Sure, they cut it out, but if they were really going for indoc right up to November 2011 -- I seriously doubt they had the time (let alone the cost and effort) to go back through the game and remove any and all hints toward this; i.e, the uncertain thing with the kid and most of the 'evidence' that indoc-theory uses. IMO that's why indoc-theory seems to gel so well, the vestige hints all sum up to a mostly coherent whole that stays true to the lore.

But forget about all that.

Am I the only one that subscribes to indoc-theory where it isn't a 'dream' or 'hallucination'? I'd rather see it as the final boss of the game was the ultimate test of Shepard's will; the final boss of the game was to see if you could beat the indoctrination by the Reapers, and the endings we got are the real endings. Now, that doesn't excuse that the endings were poorly put together (not what happens, but what we're shown). If they would show us more, I wouldn't mind what happened in the endings as much.

There is a middle ground between 'what we got' and 'indoc-theory' that not a lot of people seem to want to take, but it is viable IMO.

I see what you're saying, but the unfortunate truth is Bioware, with what is actually in the ending, simply failed to "sell" indoctrination even if it were intended. The result is a breach of the writer-reader contract, which results in a shattering of the suspension of disbelief. 

This negates not only the validity of the ending, but the relevance of Indoctrination. As I said a few pages back, it is a catastrophic failure of storytelling-- nothing more.

I totally agree.

[darkcerb]

longtimecoming00 wrote...

In order for it to be true, then it means the development team must have mapped out the entire storyline progression for all three games back before the original Mass Effect was even in development. Bioware may be good, but they're not that good.

By the same token in order for it to be false you have to accept deus ex machina, teleportation and charecters acting wildly out of place. Not to mention what was the god child doing when soverign was perched on it? having a nap? organizing it's comic collection?

I think we can accept that it wasn't intentional given the "apology" we got from the head honcho, but it still beats the tar out of taking the endings at face value and as a method of adding to the ending it's perfect.

[Dreogan]

darkcerb wrote...

longtimecoming00 wrote...

In order for it to be true, then it means the development team must have mapped out the entire storyline progression for all three games back before the original Mass Effect was even in development. Bioware may be good, but they're not that good.

By the same token in order for it to be false you have to accept deus ex machina, teleportation and charecters acting wildly out of place. Not to mention what was the god child doing when soverign was perched on it? having a nap? organizing it's comic collection?

I think we can accept that it wasn't intentional given the "apology" we got from the head honcho, but it still beats the tar out of taking the endings at face value and as a method of adding to the ending it's perfect.

I consider it one of many options available to Bioware at this point. It isn't a bad idea, but Bioware has shown me in the past it is more than capable of finding its own way to turn a plot around. I don't deny the posssibility of indoctrination, I only deny its relevance until Bioware manages to sell it to me in the plot.

Modifié par Dreogan, 23 mars 2012 - 04:08 .

[Intomydimension]

Nageth wrote...

manjikengo wrote...

Repossessor wrote...

The ME3 Final Hours doc informs us that in November they dropped gameplay at the end where "Shepard would fall under full reaper control". IMHO This was always the strongest evidence for indoc-theory, regardless if they used it or not. At the very least, it proves that the devs where going with indoctrination in the game right up to a mere few months before the game was released, whether or not it was actually used. It just grates me that people so confidentially say that no form of indoc was planned by Bioware, it seems so highly unfair and biased, when there is clear proof they had done so (again, whether or not it was cut; just making a point here).

Sure, they cut it out, but if they were really going for indoc right up to November 2011 -- I seriously doubt they had the time (let alone the cost and effort) to go back through the game and remove any and all hints toward this; i.e, the uncertain thing with the kid and most of the 'evidence' that indoc-theory uses. IMO that's why indoc-theory seems to gel so well, the vestige hints all sum up to a mostly coherent whole that stays true to the lore.


.

THIS x 1000000000000000000

I think indoc theory as far as the dream is just making stuff up. No doubt that indoctrination is happening to some degree (the kid, TIM's magic BO, etc...). The problem is that indoc theory = a large chunk of the end of the game is a dream. The problem is with the dream, not the idea of indoctrination (which has had no evidence of being dreamlike).

but a dream, I see it as a fight shepard and a test for the player

[Dreogan]

Intomydimension wrote...

Nageth wrote...

manjikengo wrote...

Repossessor wrote...

The ME3 Final Hours doc informs us that in November they dropped gameplay at the end where "Shepard would fall under full reaper control". IMHO This was always the strongest evidence for indoc-theory, regardless if they used it or not. At the very least, it proves that the devs where going with indoctrination in the game right up to a mere few months before the game was released, whether or not it was actually used. It just grates me that people so confidentially say that no form of indoc was planned by Bioware, it seems so highly unfair and biased, when there is clear proof they had done so (again, whether or not it was cut; just making a point here).

Sure, they cut it out, but if they were really going for indoc right up to November 2011 -- I seriously doubt they had the time (let alone the cost and effort) to go back through the game and remove any and all hints toward this; i.e, the uncertain thing with the kid and most of the 'evidence' that indoc-theory uses. IMO that's why indoc-theory seems to gel so well, the vestige hints all sum up to a mostly coherent whole that stays true to the lore.


.

THIS x 1000000000000000000

I think indoc theory as far as the dream is just making stuff up. No doubt that indoctrination is happening to some degree (the kid, TIM's magic BO, etc...). The problem is that indoc theory = a large chunk of the end of the game is a dream. The problem is with the dream, not the idea of indoctrination (which has had no evidence of being dreamlike).

but a dream, I see it as a fight shepard and a test for the player

You might see it that way, but that's not the way it's presented. Again, Bioware failed to "sell" the plot. Catastrophic failure of storytelling.

Modifié par Dreogan, 23 mars 2012 - 04:13 .

[Intomydimension]

Dreogan wrote...

Intomydimension wrote...

Nageth wrote...

manjikengo wrote...

Repossessor wrote...

The ME3 Final Hours doc informs us that in November they dropped gameplay at the end where "Shepard would fall under full reaper control". IMHO This was always the strongest evidence for indoc-theory, regardless if they used it or not. At the very least, it proves that the devs where going with indoctrination in the game right up to a mere few months before the game was released, whether or not it was actually used. It just grates me that people so confidentially say that no form of indoc was planned by Bioware, it seems so highly unfair and biased, when there is clear proof they had done so (again, whether or not it was cut; just making a point here).

Sure, they cut it out, but if they were really going for indoc right up to November 2011 -- I seriously doubt they had the time (let alone the cost and effort) to go back through the game and remove any and all hints toward this; i.e, the uncertain thing with the kid and most of the 'evidence' that indoc-theory uses. IMO that's why indoc-theory seems to gel so well, the vestige hints all sum up to a mostly coherent whole that stays true to the lore.


.

THIS x 1000000000000000000

I think indoc theory as far as the dream is just making stuff up. No doubt that indoctrination is happening to some degree (the kid, TIM's magic BO, etc...). The problem is that indoc theory = a large chunk of the end of the game is a dream. The problem is with the dream, not the idea of indoctrination (which has had no evidence of being dreamlike).

but a dream, I see it as a fight shepard and a test for the player

You might see it that way, but that's not the way it's presented. Again, Bioware failed to "sell" the plot. Catastrophic failure of storytelling.

see the end was crap misspelled, poorly narrated and nonsense at first glance, I do not see an error or something wrong narrated to confirm the theory and cover the holes you have, and makes sense.


I see it rather well hidden tracks, not for anyone, but for good fans



on a final dlc to clarify everything and more I see an error if not free

[Cross429]

Dreogan wrote...

Intomydimension wrote...

Nageth wrote...

manjikengo wrote...

Repossessor wrote...

The ME3 Final Hours doc informs us that in November they dropped gameplay at the end where "Shepard would fall under full reaper control". IMHO This was always the strongest evidence for indoc-theory, regardless if they used it or not. At the very least, it proves that the devs where going with indoctrination in the game right up to a mere few months before the game was released, whether or not it was actually used. It just grates me that people so confidentially say that no form of indoc was planned by Bioware, it seems so highly unfair and biased, when there is clear proof they had done so (again, whether or not it was cut; just making a point here).

Sure, they cut it out, but if they were really going for indoc right up to November 2011 -- I seriously doubt they had the time (let alone the cost and effort) to go back through the game and remove any and all hints toward this; i.e, the uncertain thing with the kid and most of the 'evidence' that indoc-theory uses. IMO that's why indoc-theory seems to gel so well, the vestige hints all sum up to a mostly coherent whole that stays true to the lore.


.

THIS x 1000000000000000000

I think indoc theory as far as the dream is just making stuff up. No doubt that indoctrination is happening to some degree (the kid, TIM's magic BO, etc...). The problem is that indoc theory = a large chunk of the end of the game is a dream. The problem is with the dream, not the idea of indoctrination (which has had no evidence of being dreamlike).

but a dream, I see it as a fight shepard and a test for the player

You might see it that way, but that's not the way it's presented. Again, Bioware failed to "sell" the plot. Catastrophic failure of storytelling.

I think IT is on target 100%: either intended, or they had to abandon it at the last minute with all of its vestiges intact.

Also: I agree with you. While I am wholly convinced IT is what is intended, they decided to abandon storytelling to "encourage speculation" (per the "Final Hours" and other dev notes).

It was done, with a plan to release DLC. Fan outcry has resulted in that DLC being announced sooner than anticipated.

And yes: the fact that this is all so opaque, is a failure of storytelling about which you are entitled to your outrage IMHO.

[Dreogan]

Cross429 wrote...
I think IT is on target 100%: either intended, or they had to abandon it at the last minute with all of its vestiges intact.

Also: I agree with you. While I am wholly convinced IT is what is intended, they decided to abandon storytelling to "encourage speculation" (per the "Final Hours" and other dev notes).

It was done, with a plan to release DLC. Fan outcry has resulted in that DLC being announced sooner than anticipated.

And yes: the fact that this is all so opaque, is a failure of storytelling about which you are entitled to your outrage IMHO.

Oh, like I've said before I don't reject the possibility of indoctrination, I just reject its relevance at this point (since the plot so utterly failed to sell it). All I want to see is Bioware fix the ending; I don't care how they go about it. Indoctrination is only one path of many they can follow at this point.

Modifié par Dreogan, 23 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[thoreauscabin]

The Indoctrination Theory is garbage and this picture sums up how I feel about people who believe it.

[Orthodox Infidel]

thoreauscabin wrote...



The Indoctrination Theory is garbage and this picture sums up how I feel about people who believe it.

OMG YELLOW STRAWS IT'S THE SECRET NG+ ENDING!

[zephyr2025]

After all this, I don't believe Bioware was capable of putting that much thought into it.

[thoreauscabin]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

OMG YELLOW STRAWS IT'S THE SECRET NG+ ENDING!

You need 99999999 EMS, romance with Wrex and to tug on Garrus' crispy lips to activate it.

[hector7rau]

thoreauscabin wrote...



The Indoctrination Theory is garbage and this picture sums up how I feel about people who believe it.

Sorry, but same here. Mass Effect is not Silent Hill, not everything is symbolic.

[recentio]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

thoreauscabin wrote...



The Indoctrination Theory is garbage and this picture sums up how I feel about people who believe it.

OMG YELLOW STRAWS IT'S THE SECRET NG+ ENDING!

So many emergency induction ports...which one right...?

[Straw_foot]

I think it's a possible way to keep the current ending while changing it, but if they have a better idea I'm open. Really the Mass Relays exploding and destroying the galaxy is the biggest thing that needs to be nullified.

[Repossessor]

thoreauscabin wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is garbage and this picture sums up how I feel about people who believe it.

zephyr2025 wrote...

After all this, I don't believe Bioware was capable of putting that much thought into it.

Even though it's been proved that they only removed the indoctrination gameplay in November 2011?  Seems a little biased and unfair to claim otherwise, no?  (I know it's not in the game anymore, just making a point).

[Rhazesx]

I'm not on the bandwagon. The Prothean AI could detect people who are indoctrinated. If Sheperd was then it would have shutdown like it did with Kei Leng showed up.

Sheperd never hears voices convincing him the Reapers are cool and just want to buddies.

So, I have no interest in a new ending where Sheperd has some kind of special indoctrination or how the Reapers just never wanted to try and control him, even though he was kicking their butts.

[Straw_foot]

Rhazesx wrote...

Sheperd never hears voices convincing him the Reapers are cool and just want to buddies.
 

IDK, McCulley Culkin God-VI basically did.

[Penitent]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Am I seriously alone in NOT wanting the indoctrination theory to be the new ending? 

http://social.biowar...ndex/10128357/1

[Lashknife]

While I am all for the IT, I would accept the current endings pending a free, thorough explanation on Bioware's end.

As it is, it's hard to grasp the concept that the same people who made ME1 -> ME3's last 10 minutes could then do a 180 with the ending without some other purpose to it. Artistic design aside, it's poor game design. If I wanted to be pigeonholed I wouldn't be playing Bioware games.

[evisneffo]

thoreauscabin wrote...

You need 99999999 EMS, romance with Wrex and to tug on Garrus' crispy lips to activate it.

XD Garrus' crispy lips ... OH GOLLY


And OP, I am not a supporter of indoctrination theory either. I appreciate the evidence that people have put forward for it, but I don't support it.

[gamer_girl]

I think the indoctrination thing is just plain silly.

[Reth Shepherd]

Considering how much Shepard has been around Reapers and Reaper artifacts, I'm a little surprised that so many people discount even the possibility. Quite frankly, from the moment I finished Arrival I fully expected Indoc to come into the game at SOME point! Shep spent two days unconscious next to an active Reaper artifact (and don't forget that moments of lowered will have been stated to help the process along). S/he has spent time inside of a Reaper corpse shown to retain the ability to indoctrinate, and has come into contact with loads of Reaper artifacts throughout the entirety of ME1 and ME3. Not to mention that it's been hinted that there might be a Reaper device aboard the Normandy. Remember James' throwaway line asking if anyone else hears that humming (humming is mentioned as one of the preliminary signs of indoc)? This could also be a complete coincidence, but have you noticed that Life Support aboard the Normandy serves absolutely no purpose? No one lives there, no one ever goes in there. Rooms such as Grunt's old room are locked off unless a DLC character moves in, so why is this room left open? Seems odd. And of course the entire ending sequence. There's a point by point analysis on the ending here.

Given that Bioware has hinted very strongly that Indoc isn't in fact what they decided to go with (though I will point out that it actually was being considered at one point and only discarded because of a gameplay mechanic...which might have been worked out in other ways.); at this point it does look likely that what we see with the endings is what we were intended to get. But why is the very idea so surprising to so many? Is Shep considered to be immune or something?

[Dreogan]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Considering how much Shepard has been around Reapers and Reaper artifacts, I'm a little surprised that so many people discount even the possibility. Quite frankly, from the moment I finished Arrival I fully expected Indoc to come into the game at SOME point! Shep spent two days unconscious next to an active Reaper artifact (and don't forget that moments of lowered will have been stated to help the process along). S/he has spent time inside of a Reaper corpse shown to retain the ability to indoctrinate, and has come into contact with loads of Reaper artifacts throughout the entirety of ME1 and ME3. Not to mention that it's been hinted that there might be a Reaper device aboard the Normandy. Remember James' throwaway line asking if anyone else hears that humming (humming is mentioned as one of the preliminary signs of indoc)? This could also be a complete coincidence, but have you noticed that Life Support aboard the Normandy serves absolutely no purpose? No one lives there, no one ever goes in there. Rooms such as Grunt's old room are locked off unless a DLC character moves in, so why is this room left open? Seems odd. And of course the entire ending sequence. There's a point by point analysis on the ending here.

Given that Bioware has hinted very strongly that Indoc isn't in fact what they decided to go with (though I will point out that it actually was being considered at one point and only discarded because of a gameplay mechanic...which might have been worked out in other ways.); at this point it does look likely that what we see with the endings is what we were intended to get. But why is the very idea so surprising to so many? Is Shep considered to be immune or something?

It's so surprising to many because the plot, as presented, utterly fails to bring it into the spotlight. Catastrophic failure of storytelling.

There are places where it is a possibility, but it's never as clear as the "known good" indoctrination when TIM takes over.

By the same token, there is a possibility Shepard's space hamster (I named mine Boobles) is a spy for Harbinger.

Modifié par Dreogan, 23 mars 2012 - 04:59 .

[OMTING52601]

I think Indoctrination is a carefully thought out and creative interpretation of the ending done by a player who has some really cool head canon

But no, I don't think of it as 'what really happened'.