91 réponses à ce sujet

[Fidget6]

Darkrider296 wrote...

I lost respect for Tallis during a conversation with Anders. Anders was asking her a very serious question about how Mages are treated under the Qun. Yet she deflected it with a stupid joke (hate when other characters do that as well)

Anders deserves to be shrugged off.  Carver said it best: "I don't hate you because you're a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it!"

Modifié par Fidget6, 28 juin 2012 - 05:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Fidget6 wrote...

Darkrider296 wrote...

I lost respect for Tallis during a conversation with Anders. Anders was asking her a very serious question about how Mages are treated under the Qun. Yet she deflected it with a stupid joke (hate when other characters do that as well)

Anders deserves to be shrugged off.  Carver said it best: "I don't hate you because you're a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it!"

Mages deal with it every day if their lives - of course it will matter to Anders. He views the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, he has an issue with the Qunari sewing up the mouths if mages and treating them like animals... while Carver and non-mages don't have to deal with it the way mages do.

[LolaLei]

I didn't hate her, but as far as companions go she didn't particularly add anything to my DA2 experience. I wouldn't want her as a companion in DA3 though, what with the web series and the MotA DLC it would feel like she's being forced down our throats to like her, and I'd be a tad concerned that the game would end up being "The Tallis Show", since the MotA DLC felt like it was all about her, rather than the storyline. I swear she never lost a banter either, often at the expense of our other companions.

Modifié par LolaLei, 30 juin 2012 - 05:04 .

[Blacklash93]

WotanAnubis wrote...
So, considering the Qun says that it is literally impossible for someone to be both female and capable of fighting, how exactly did Tallis become an infiltrator/assassin?

Because she's not a woman to the Qunari. Women can fight and some do in the Qun, but it is rare and they are considered men.

I liked Tallis, honestly. Her personal struggle with the Qun and her own desires was definitely interesting to me. It seemed she was trying to convince herself the Qun was something it wasn't at times while also giving a genuinely more human and sympathetic outlook on it. It was good insight into the mind of a Qunari convert.

And if we were to see her again as a companion or such I doubt the game would be the "Tallis Show" or something like that. MotA was very focused on her because it was about her personal conflict and she was setting everything in motion. There would be no other reason to introduce a new companion, even if just for the DLC. We just happened to gain some more insight on the Qunari along the way. It was a fun adventure, too.

With that said there were missed opportunities like Hawke not being able to point out being a mage or get an actual, serious view from Tallis about it (though perhaps it was just her trying to deny fundamental flaws in the Qun to herself, which is in-character). Also not being able to forcibly take the scrolls from her or attempt to. But that's not something to fault on the character of Tallis, but the writers themselves.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 30 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Blacklash93 wrote...

WotanAnubis wrote...
So, considering the Qun says that it is literally impossible for someone to be both female and capable of fighting, how exactly did Tallis become an infiltrator/assassin?

Because she's not a woman to the Qunari. Women can fight and some do in the Qun, but it is rare and they are considered men.

Wouldn't Sten consider Morrigan, Leliana, Wynne, and a female Warden to be men? Since he didn't, it seems like they changed the lore again. He seemed surprised to encounter women who could fight.

[Blacklash93]

Your mistake is assuming Sten is all-knowing of everything that goes on in the Qunari and especially of things that are considered rare cases. Your second mistake is assuming Sten considered the female companions true women in Origins, which he displays skepticism of in banter.

I know Mary Kirby explained this some time ago.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 30 juin 2012 - 03:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Your mistake is assuming Sten is all-knowing of everything that goes on in the Qunari and especially of things that are considered rare cases. Your second mistake is assuming Sten considered the female companions true women in Origins, which he displays skepticism of in banter.

I know Mary Kirby explained this some time ago.

Or they simply changed things to accommodate this new direction, since it's silly to assume that Sten is ignorant about his own society.

[Blacklash93]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Or they simply changed things to accommodate this new direction, since it's silly to assume that Sten is ignorant about his own society.

Plenty of people are ignorant to plenty of aspects about their own society and especially given cases of this nature. Females fighting is a rare anomaly in the Qun and it only happens because of unique circumstances surrounding those individuals. I highly doubt the Qunari are the type to publicize these things.

Sten's attitude toward the female companions is right in line with how the Qun treat female warriors. They are not really women to him and them considering themselves as such confuses him.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 30 juin 2012 - 11:36 .

[EricHVela]

If you play a sarcastic Hawke, Tallis is often in-step with that tone. It's very uncharacteristic of what I expected of a Qunari. She admits (in both MotA and Redemption) that she's had difficulty with the Qun (and Redemption suggests that her individuality is getting in the way), hurting her status within the Qun.

It seems to me that her loose adherence to the Qun (frowned upon by the Qunari) is what makes her so good as Tallis and makes her a little risky.

[TEWR]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Because she's not a woman to the Qunari

Yes she is. David Gaider has gone over the rigid and multiple definitions Qunari apply to various terms and has stated that she is a woman in the eyes of the Qunari.

1) She's a Ben-Hassrath. Ben-Hassrath are considered priests in the eyes of the Qunari. Priests are a role where men and women can be a part of it.

2) She fights, but she does not fight constantly as the army does. The confusion that Sten talks about is when a woman tries to be a part of the army -- an all male role devoted to fighting and living by the blade. Tallis is not trying to be a part of the army and thus is not viewed as trying to be male.

Sten on the other hand views the Grey Wardens as an army -- indeed, Gaider said this view would extend to all Qunari everywhere -- and I assume he questions the presence of Leliana, Morrigan, and Wynne because they're with the Grey Wardens, who are an army devoted to fighting Darkspawn. Their presence there makes him think they're trying to be a part of the Wardens or the army of Ferelden and thus are trying to be in a male role when they're obviously female.

WotanAnubis wrote...
So, considering the Qun says that it is literally impossible for someone to be both female and capable of fighting, how exactly did Tallis become an infiltrator/assassin?

The Qun doesn't say it's impossible for women to be capable of fighting and remain women. The Qun says it's impossible for women to be a part of the army -- where their lives are devoted to fighting -- and still be women.

Take Sten to Murdock when you first talk with him and ask Murdock one of the questions available -- Murdock's reply is that they're protecting the folks in the Chantry. Sten will flat out state that when push comes to shove, all Qunari would fight under those same circumstances. Men, women, and children.

EDIT: To both Blacklash93 and WotanAnubis...

First source link

Second source link

Third source link

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Because she's not a woman to the Qunari

Yes she is. David Gaider has gone over the rigid and multiple definitions Qunari apply to various terms and has stated that she is a woman in the eyes of the Qunari.

1) She's a Ben-Hassrath. Ben-Hassrath are considered priests in the eyes of the Qunari. Priests are a role where men and women can be a part of it.

2) She fights, but she does not fight constantly as the army does. The confusion that Sten talks about is when a woman tries to be a part of the army -- an all male role devoted to fighting and living by the blade. Tallis is not trying to be a part of the army and thus is not viewed as trying to be male.

Sten on the other hand views the Grey Wardens as an army -- indeed, Gaider said this view would extend to all Qunari everywhere -- and I assume he questions the presence of Leliana, Morrigan, and Wynne because they're with the Grey Wardens, who are an army devoted to fighting Darkspawn. Their presence there makes him think they're trying to be a part of the Wardens or the army of Ferelden and thus are trying to be in a male role when they're obviously female.

WotanAnubis wrote...
So, considering the Qun says that it is literally impossible for someone to be both female and capable of fighting, how exactly did Tallis become an infiltrator/assassin?

The Qun doesn't say it's impossible for women to be capable of fighting and remain women. The Qun says it's impossible for women to be a part of the army -- where their lives are devoted to fighting -- and still be women.

Take Sten to Murdock when you first talk with him and ask Murdock one of the questions available -- Murdock's reply is that they're protecting the folks in the Chantry. Sten will flat out state that when push comes to shove, all Qunari would fight under those same circumstances. Men, women, and children.

EDIT: To both Blacklash93 and WotanAnubis...

First source link

Second source link

Third source link

Part of the confusion may stem from the inconsistency.  This is an example of Sten's dialogue, and some of the Warden's response options:

Sten: "Women are priests, artisans, shopkeepers or farmers.  They don't fight."  

Warden:"That's not a universal truth.  Some women fight."  

Sten: "Why would women ever wish to be men? It makes no sense."

Warden: "They don't wish to be men.  They wish to be women who fight."

Sten: " Do they also wish to live on the moon?  That's as attainable."

Warden: "I'm a woman, and I'm fighting."

Sten: "One of those things can't be true."

Sorry, but I know a few things about how people use language and I can firmly state that those are NOT things that Sten would say, especially the underlined bits, if he believed women could fight, if just under specific prescribed conditions--he would phrase his response in a totally different way, rather than being exclusive in his wording.  He is talking here as if he believes that women don't fight, ever, because fighting is a men's role, period.  Note in particular that the Warden can point out that some women fight, and Sten doesn't use that opportunity to point to the Qun's prescribed situations in which women can.  If it were true when he said that that some Qunari women did fight, if their role allowed for it, he would have said so.  He certainly would NOT, if that were the case, have dismissed it completely with "why do they wish to be men?"

So it strongly appears that during Origins Bioware was going one direction with the Qunari's attitude toward gender roles, and decided to alter that direction in mid-stream later on, and is having a difficult time retro-actively explaining Sten's comments in a way that accomodates the new perspective.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Sorry, but I know a few things about how people use language and I can firmly state that those are NOT things that Sten would say, especially the underlined bits, if he believed women could fight, if just under specific prescribed conditions--he would phrase his response in a totally different way, rather than being exclusive in his wording.

But he also states in conversation with Murdock that if the Qunari were facing the same situation everyone -- men, women, and children -- would fight.

And he'll talk at the end about the Ben-Hassrath -- who are priests -- that will keep order if the Qunari get out of hand. Keeping order generally involves fighting as well if there's resistance, and it was established on the forums prior to DAII's release -- maybe even announcement -- that the Ben-Hassrath/priests can be comprised of both men and women.

So there's evidence in DAO and prior to DAII -- well before MotA even -- that women can fight under certain conditions.

It might be inconsistent how he talks about the issue to some people -- not to me personally, but admittedly it's been a while since I ran a Female Warden. Running animations and the voicesets made me not a fan of playing as them -- but it's not like Bioware changed it during the course of DAII's development.

Sten gave us enough evidence in conversations with Murdock alone that women can fight under certain circumstances.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:44 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Sorry, but I know a few things about how people use language and I can firmly state that those are NOT things that Sten would say, especially the underlined bits, if he believed women could fight, if just under specific prescribed conditions--he would phrase his response in a totally different way, rather than being exclusive in his wording.

But he also states in conversation with Murdock that if the Qunari were facing the same situation everyone -- men, women, and children -- would fight.

And he'll talk at the end about the Ben-Hassrath -- who are priests -- that will keep order if the Qunari get out of hand. Keeping order generally involves fighting as well if there's resistance, and it was established on the forums prior to DAII's release -- maybe even announcement -- that the Ben-Hassrath/priests can be comprised of both men and women.

So there's evidence in DAO and prior to DAII -- well before MotA even -- that women can fight under certain conditions.

It might be inconsistent how he talks about the issue to some people -- not to me personally, but admittedly it's been a while since I ran a Female Warden. Running animations and the voicesets made me not a fan of playing as them -- but it's not like Bioware changed it during the course of DAII's development.

Sten gave us enough evidence in conversations with Murdock alone that women can fight under certain circumstances.

I'm aware of those references.  Meant to mention them in my other post, actually.  I don't think they actually mean all that much, EWR.  It still comes across as a contradiction.  Sten's conversation with the Warden leaves zero room for those other references to make sense.  The only thing I've come up with is that Sten, for all that he doesn't believe women can be de facto fighters, still doesn't expect a woman to simply hold still while she's being physically attacked.  That's the only way I can reconcile his statements throughout Origins.  It just does not make any sense at all that Sten would claim that women categorically are unable to be fighters, if he thought there were exceptions to that rule per the Qun.  He makes no allowance for it when talking to the Warden, and if it were true that when Sten's dialogue in that scene was written, Bioware had intended for women to fight according to the Qun under specific conditions, then Sten's dialogue there would reflect that.  You are in particular overlooking the priest thing:  If Ben-Hassrath are priests, and these priests are fight, why does Sten say, "women are priests...they don't fight."   Obviously if priests were able to fight according to the Qun's dictates, Sten would have said something eise entirely, rather than using a phrase that excludes priests from fighting.

I can't say when the change was made, but I am absolutely certain that Bioware's original intention was for the Qun not to allow for women to participate in roles that allowed for fighting, and they changed it at some point.  I'm not saying the change MUST have happened for DA2, but I think it's clear that it wasn't the case when that scene was written.  

So, okay, sure the lore has been retro-altered to serve a new direction in the story.  I can get behind that.  But it doesn't change the fact that this creates contradictory dialogue that now has to either be accounted for or outright disregarded.  It's not unlike that scene with Alistair claiming that lyrium doesn't create templar abilities, even though we have WoG and other lore references specifically stating that it does.  Alistair's dialogue in the game is still accessible, so you either have to come up with reasons why Alistair is lying, or simply wrong, or you have to pretend it didn't happen.  Same with Sten's remarks.

Modifié par Silfren, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .

[RampantAndroid]

BubbleDncr wrote...

If Tallis ever shows up in Dragon Age again, I want the option to kill her.

Put that in your notes for DA3, Bioware.

You mean, I'm not alone is disliking that character completely? Hmmm. 

The model was ugly, voice acting meh, and the character itself failed to engage me.

Fidget6 wrote...

Darkrider296 wrote...

I lost respect for Tallis during a conversation with Anders. Anders was asking her a very serious question about how Mages are treated under the Qun. Yet she deflected it with a stupid joke (hate when other characters do that as well)

Anders deserves to be shrugged off.  Carver said it best: "I don't hate you because you're a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it!"

 

Carver says that? I think I need to play as a mage now JUST to hear him say that. Anders certainly got on my nerves throughout the game. Isabela was just childish, Anders was downright annoying. "By the way, I'm a mage!" yes, we know. Now heal me already.

[Chiramu]

renjility wrote...

I did not like Tallis, and not as in a dislike for a well-written character, but as a dislike for a badly written character. She was supposed to be everything at the same time: funny, cool, but also deep and philosophical and wise. In the end she became some sort of split personality, one who blurts out "that must be the altar that weird old guy mentioned" and "there are different paths. Don't have to lead to the same destination". It doesn't mesh well, it feels disconnected. And because of that I started to dislike her with passion.

Tallis seems to be a carbon "cool" version of Felicia Day that she's inserted in the Dragon Age world.

I personally think it's a mockery of the Dragon Age lore and Bioware seem to be making the story up as they go along. 

Felicia Day is a terrible writer and a mediocre actor.

[Ferretinabun]

Everything I dislike about Tallis boils down to the fact that she's a total Mary Sue - a God Mode Sue to be precise.

She's not a three-dimensional character; she's sassy, sexy (or supposed to be), clever, "witty", philosophical, capable, independent, kick-ass author avatar with one or two quasi-flaws hinted at (yet never appreciably explored) just to take the sheen off her halo.

No-one likes the Wesley.

[Renmiri1]

I disagree.. Felicia Day took the time to learn the lore and the world of Thedas and i think she did a decent job. Granted, Talis is a bit too perfect but I appreciate the effort.

Is a lot more than some of the ME3 authors did. They didn't bother to learn the universe and just crammed stuff in willy nilly making plot holes the size of Jupiter's hurricanes!