328 réponses à ce sujet

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

 KalosCast:

It's politics - since when has politics ever been portrayed as a conflict in an M-rated game and NOT have it be cynical?

1) Missed your coverage of the horror elements. Just because other things are "more scary" doesn't change the fact that these things exist in the game world, and are horror elements.
2) Call of Duty: Modern Warfare (both games) portray very idealistic action movie-y versions of the United States and British political stances
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (everybody loves the Emperor, the Imperium is always nice and good and sweet)
Neverwinter Nights (2, especially, has the distinctly benevolent kingdom of Neverwinter and the distinctly 'evil for the hell of it' Luskan)
Halo (UNSC is never portrayed as doing anything questionable in the game series, less so in the books)

Modifié par KalosCast, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:47 .

[Roxlimn]

Malkut:



First sign!?!? Scores of Redcliffe villagers are dead because of Connor. It's less a matter of pre-emptive action and more a matter of damage control.

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...

 Bibdy:

The difference is YOU WEREN'T THE ONE THAT KILLED THEM. YOU didn't make the decision to do that.

Big difference between A) seeing dead children everywhere and you were the one that stabbed them all to death. In the context of a video game, it makes a HUGE difference. Difference between "oh my god, this game world is pretty grim" and "HOLY ****ING **** I JUST KILLED A CHILD!".

I can see that this really horrifies you.  In some ways, I envy you your sheltered worlds.  Child mortality is the highest age-group mortality in most of the developing world.  Sometimes it's due to neglect.  Other times, it's not nearly so benign.
Children dying is reality.  Your character being a killer is a reality in Dragon Age.  It's not all that horrific that you should be killing child-shaped abominations when they're imminent threats to the lives of virtually everyone in a 100 mile radius.  Putting it in caps only shows how it affects you.  Bioware put that in specifically for the shock value.  Apparently, they know their demographic well.
It doesn't shock me.  He's a threat and killing him saves lives.  If he were any wiser, he would be begging me to kill him, himself.  Some kids actually are that self-aware.  That would actually be harder.  You know, if he's asking you to kill him?  And yes, I've been in a similarly hard situation.  It's harder when the child knows what's what.

The reason for the caps is because its clear you're so damn braindead that simple information can't seem to penetrate your skull using only lower case.

The idea that someone could shrug something off something like murdering a child in cold blood as necessary, but couldn't feel even the slightest hint of remorse...yes, that horrifies me a little.

The idea that someone thinks such situations are commonplace in the video game industry today, and thus they feel the need to drag out an argument this trivial, for this long, being so stubborn that they cannot separate the grey from black and white...that just speaks of immaturity to me.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:51 .

[Malkut]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Reasonable people traded their children as food so they wouldn't have to kill their own children to prevent starvation!

True story in fact.

What does this have to do with Isolde?  Isolde wasn't starving.  She's just religious and stupid, two things that go hand-in-hand.

Anyway, OP was fooled by ad campaign designed for fratboy consoletards, has broken the board rules by dragging real-world politics into the thread, and is probably one of those guys that plays WH40K and uses the word "Grimdark" without realizing that it's supposed to be a joke.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



Those games do not involve heavy political intrigue or conflict. Two of those are white-washed shooting games, for crying out loud.

[gotthammer]

@ Kalos & Reuben:

OT:

Yup. Agree w/ most of your sentiments. Nice point on the fact that the Empire in WHF is actually in a relatively good state.

As I said, I forgot the conclusion w/ my friends' discussion, but I think it may have been 40k, as far as which is 'darker' is concerned (I recall the 'Nids being stated as one of the key reasons for a lack of 'hope', as the only power that can combat them effectively are either Chaos or the Necrons...or was it just Chaos? Gah...I forget). Good point on the Imperium's stagnation + self-destructiveness, too.



<---Ciaphas Cain 'fan'

[ReubenLiew]

Nah got nothing to do with Isolde, just remarking that people do very strange things in very strange situations. And it can be considered very reasonable to do so.

Let us say for example that Connor wasn't actually bringing in demons, he carries the plague. His mother is immune, and Connor seems to be stable but the plague is killing damn near everyone else.

The 'reasonable' person would probably kill the child and burn his corpse to stop the plague. As well as cordon off everyone else and burn them too just to be sure.

Humans, however, are rarely reasonable. Especially when it comes to children.

[Roxlimn]

Bibdy:



Takes two to tango, kid.

The reason for the caps is because its clear you're so damn braindead that simple information can't seem to penetrate your skull using only lower case.



The idea that someone could shrug something off as necessary, but couldn't feel even the slightest hint of remorse...yes, that horrifies me a little.



The idea that someone thinks such situations are commonplace in the video game industry today, and thus they feel the need to drag out an argument this trivial, for this long, being so stubborn that they cannot separate the grey from black and white...that just speaks of immaturity to me.

So in other words, you used all caps because you can't really think of any reason to refute my observations and reasoning?



You're mistaken when you think I'm shrugging it off. It's tragic and unfortunate. Many things in the game and in many games are. I don't see how this is all that different. Why should I, or you, feel remorseful about an action that saves lives? Just because it involves something so unfamiliar to you that it shocks you?



Please.



It's tragic, but it's also the best course when you (presumably) have no better option. There is nothing grey about that decision. There is a known and active threat, you act to neutralize it. Bioware makes it a kid for shock value, but that's all it is - shock value. It's not even all that horrific by literary standards, since Connor is clearly a powerful and potent force of death and destruction.

[Roxlimn]

ReubenLiew:



It's not a very good analogy. There is no certainty that killing the plague-bearer will make a difference, or won't, in fact, spread the plague even more. In Connor's case the expert assures us that killing him would definitely solve the problem.

[Malkut]

ReubenLiew wrote...

The 'reasonable' person would probably kill the child and burn his corpse to stop the plague. As well as cordon off everyone else and burn them too just to be sure.

Er . . . have 'reasonable' people never heard of quarantine?  They quarantined leapers, you know.  The problem with the plauge was that everyone had it.

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...

Bibdy:

Takes two to tango, kid.

Hey, I never claimed to be perfect. Arguing with internet retards is both a hobby and a fault of mine.

So in other words, you used all caps because you can't really think of any reason to refute my observations and reasoning?

You're mistaken when you think I'm shrugging it off. It's tragic and unfortunate. Many things in the game and in many games are. I don't see how this is all that different. Why should I, or you, feel remorseful about an action that saves lives? Just because it involves something so unfamiliar to you that it shocks you?

Please.

It's tragic, but it's also the best course when you (presumably) have no better option. There is nothing grey about that decision. There is a known and active threat, you act to neutralize it. Bioware makes it a kid for shock value, but that's all it is - shock value. It's not even all that horrific by literary standards, since Connor is clearly a powerful and potent force of death and destruction.

That's not the black and white I was referring to. You think things are dark or they're not. This is clear from your so-called 'observations' and 'reasoning', because clearly nothing can be 'dark fantasy' without having to go all the way down to deep levels of horror, depravity, despair and such forth. So, because DA:O isn't what you would consider 'dark fantasy', this thread exists to satisfy your ego that you were clearly the first one to come to such a conclusion and the world must know how many dark fantasy novels you've read and that nothing in this game has shocked you in the slightest.

Well, then to that I say...good for you. Keep fighting the good fight against what you perceive to be false advertising, because god forbid the world has a wider range of colour than 0 and 100% saturation.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[Roxlimn]

Not at all. I'm clearly making comparisons here to what is considered normal fantasy - works like LOTR from which DAO obviously borrows from heavily. Or you can reference D&D - that works, too. Neither are more light-hearted than DAO.



Just because some works are closer to Care Bears doesn't make DAO unusually dark as fantasy material goes. It's just normally dark. The things I posted here are NOT deep levels of horror and depravity. It can get much worse - but I just can't bear to think about it. Trust, it gets MUCH worse in real life. You don't know about these things. You don't want to know about these things.



This thread exists to discuss why Bioware labels DAO "dark." Apparently, it because of blood graphics and the shock value. Glad you agree with me.

[ReubenLiew]

Quarantine is not so easily achieved in the medieval ages, which is why the Black Plague went on as bad as it did. (made worse by the fact the plague isn't even spread by people)
In this day and age yes we can quarantine people quickly and rather effectively, but back in the day plague victims are left to die, then their corpses dragged from their houses and burned in the streets.
Anyone caught trying to leave the quarantine area was shot to death. Just in case.
For Isolde's case it's more extreme, because we can't quarantine the child, as he raises undead armies, so if there was no other way to effectively stop this demon killing the child is the only reasonable solution.
And if Isolde was a reasonable person (basically a person who's cut off their emotions) they would've slit the child's throat to stop the killings.

But thats enough from me. Reasonable choices are the hardest things in the world because they require a doctors ability to disconnect themselves from feeling emotion towards their patients, and I'm not a doctor. I wouldn't be able to do this. I don't think most people in the world can do this.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:18 .

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

Those games do not involve heavy political intrigue or conflict. Two of those are white-washed shooting games, for crying out loud.

Is this a No True Scotsman or a Moving the Goalposts? You asked for video games in which politics are present (well, that's an assumption) and not portrayed in a cynical manner. I delivered. As for NWN2, nearly a quarter of the game is devoted to being framed for a crime, Luskan demanding that you be expedited for a trial you'd be guaranteed to lose, and attempting to find ways to circumvent this treaty and then unravel the web behind how and why the framing was done, as well as who's truly behind it.

There's a reason why games aren't based in reality. Reality sucks. Dark Fantasy has nothing to do with grit and reality. It being absent in Dragon Age has nothing to do with whether or not it can be Dark Fantasty.

Modifié par KalosCast, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...


This thread exists to discuss why Bioware labels DAO "dark." Apparently, it because of blood graphics and the shock value. Glad you agree with me.

Nice attempt at making it look like you won the argument. I see what you did there.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



Specifically, I asked for games where there's actual politics involved - not a white-wash.

There's a reason why games aren't based in reality. Reality sucks. Dark Fantasy has nothing to do with grit and reality. It being absent in Dragon Age has nothing to do with whether or not it can be Dark Fantasty.

Well, what's it to you then? Blood graphics and shock value, too? Maybe it's the sex? Or lack of absolute moral paragons in some areas? Is that what you would say "dark fantasy" is?

[Malkut]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Quarantine is not so easily achieved in the medieval ages, which is why the Black Plague went on as bad as it did..

Actually, the reason it got so bad was that none of them bathed and they all had fleas.  Except the Jews, who followed Old Testament hygiene laws.  The people, of course, responded by blaming the Jews for the plague and killing them.

How 'reasonable' of them.

For Isolde's case it's more extreme, because we can't quarantine the child, as he raises undead armies, so if there was no other way to effectively stop this demon killing the child is the only reasonable solution.
And if Isolde was a reasonable person (basically a person who's cut off their emotions) they would've slit the child's throat to stop the killings.

If Isolde was an actually reasonable person, then she would have sent Conner to the Circle in the first place, creating a scenario that doesn't necessitate murder at all.

[Roxlimn]

Bibdy:



Silly kid - the post history is here for all to see. One closing statement won't make it "appear" I won anything. That's patently ridiculous.



So far, all you have is shouting in caps, calling me names, and shock value. Oh, and blood graphics. Is that what makes fantasy dark these days?

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

Specifically, I asked for games where there's actual politics involved - not a white-wash.

There's a reason why games aren't based in reality. Reality sucks. Dark Fantasy has nothing to do with grit and reality. It being absent in Dragon Age has nothing to do with whether or not it can be Dark Fantasty.

Well, what's it to you then? Blood graphics and shock value, too? Maybe it's the sex? Or lack of absolute moral paragons in some areas? Is that what you would say "dark fantasy" is?

No, way to Straw Man, by the way. The actual definition of Dark Fantasy is a mixture of classic High Fantasy and classic Horror elements. It's usually then further divided between settings with a horror focus and settings with a fantasy focus. Dragon Age would be the latter.

EDIT: Just caught that I accidentally wrote "former"

Modifié par KalosCast, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:39 .

[ReubenLiew]

Malkut wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Quarantine is not so easily achieved in the medieval ages, which is why the Black Plague went on as bad as it did..

Actually, the reason it got so bad was that none of them bathed and they all had fleas.  Except the Jews, who followed Old Testament hygiene laws.  The people, of course, responded by blaming the Jews for the plague and killing them.

How 'reasonable' of them.

For Isolde's case it's more extreme, because we can't quarantine the child, as he raises undead armies, so if there was no other way to effectively stop this demon killing the child is the only reasonable solution.
And if Isolde was a reasonable person (basically a person who's cut off their emotions) they would've slit the child's throat to stop the killings.

If Isolde was an actually reasonable person, then she would have sent Conner to the Circle in the first place, creating a scenario that doesn't necessitate murder at all.

Never said people back then were reasonable. In fact I think people are almost psychologically incapable to be reasonable. Are you just being an ass for some reason? Did I kick your dog or something?

Isolde is NOT a reasonable person. Thats what I'm saying. If she was reasonable she'd have done exactly what you're saying. Your pc, on the other hand, if he had to be reasonable, he'd kill the child and not bat an eyelid. At that point the damage was done and if he had to act on it quickly lest it really gets out of control (like if the game had made it so if you went for the circle of magi connor would've unleashed another attack on recliffe killing everybody) then a reasonable person would put the child to rest, for the greater good of the people.

I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me at this point. Reasonable people are called to do severe things in order to establish order. Emotional people like Isolde would be appalled that killing her child would be the thing to do in order to stop the attacks, and we are all emotional in one way or another.

[Malkut]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Reasonable people are called to do severe things in order to establish order.

I'd respond to that, but the teacher would make me write "I SHALL NOT BREAK GODWIN'S LAW" on the blackboard a hundred times.

[ReubenLiew]

That's not even reasonable, he put them in camps because of emotional issues, not rationality. There wasn't any real reasonable reason he does the things he did, most of it stem from emotional breakdown of an entire people, where they hate simply because they do and not because there was a reason to do it.

Like Isolde, where protecting something which could potentially kill all the people in the village because of her emotional attachment to her son.

And in an attempt not to break Godwin's law, I would say the reasonable man would be the Major (Colonel?) and all his other assosiates that attempted Operation Valkyrie, driven by reason to assassite their leader and attempt a military coup to stop the madness that ravaged their people. And each of them ran the risk of execution of not only themselves but their familiy, friends and their dog, probably.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:48 .

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



It's a worthless distinction because classic fantasy material already HAS classic horror elements. DAO doesn't feature these horror elements any stronger or with any greater centrality. For instance, in Baldur's Gate, you are depicted as the scion of a Dark God, with suggestions that the horrific acts your "siblings" indulge could be an eventual future for you - you could eventually ascend as the God of Murder.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

It's a worthless distinction because classic fantasy material already HAS classic horror elements. DAO doesn't feature these horror elements any stronger or with any greater centrality. For instance, in Baldur's Gate, you are depicted as the scion of a Dark God, with suggestions that the horrific acts your "siblings" indulge could be an eventual future for you - you could eventually ascend as the God of Murder.

Sounds pretty dark to me, if that is indeed a major focus of the plot and themes, it would be a Dark Fantasy, yes. Though traditionally speaking, Forgotten Realms is generally not very dark and DnD itself usually has a pretty good sense of humor about its own worlds and adversaries.

Modifié par KalosCast, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Roxlimn it is beginning to become clear to me you are not wanting a Dark Fantasy setting, you are wanting a Horror Fantasy setting. I'm sorry to break this for you, but there is a VAST difference in those two genres. Horror Fantasy would be all the **** douche baggery you have been detailing, with constant justified rapes and random child killings. Dark does not have any of that ****.

And what the **** kind of an argument is: "It happens in real life all the time, so its not that dark"? WTF? If **** like that happens, it is terrible! That is dark! What the **** man? So just because it happens in real life its okay? I mean what kind of douche bag half-arsed way of thinking is that? Rape is NEVER okay, slavery is NEVER okay, massacres of innocents, killing of childs, forced prostitution is, guess what, NEVER okay. If people in your country are not opposing **** like that, it is your own failures as human beings.

EDIT: Btw, I swear because I care...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .