328 réponses à ce sujet

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...

The Angry One:

You are making a nonsensical point. I DIDN'T say these things weren't dark. I said they were par for the course for normal fantasy.

So you compare a self-proclaimed dark fantasy, with other self-proclaimed dark fantasies, without comparing them to the PLETHORA of other self-proclaimed non-dark fantasies, and consider it par for the course? Seriously? You're comparing one dark thing with another and saying that dark is normal. There's plenty of pretty white lovely flower games out there calling themselves regular fantasy games and people accept it. Why? Because dark is NOT the norm.

Sorry if you only stick to reading dark fantasy novels and are now jaded over the whole concept, but you're really a small minority. When Hollywood still pumps out blockbusters where some no-name sidekick might die, but the main hero still goes through guns blazing and makes it out without a scratch, calling itself a gritty action thriller, the average audience of the entertainment industry is obviously expecting a lot more out of something calling itself 'dark'.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:03 .

[The Angry One]

Roxlimn wrote...

In all cases in Orzammar, the treatment of the casteless is portrayed negatively. In Arthurian tales, raping women is considered normal. Which is the darker tone?

It's presented as the norm, not "negatively" unless you play a dwarven commoner, in which case of course it's negative since you are again the victim.
In fact in Orzammar, picking the supposedly "good" king Harrowmont results in even more class abuse due to his ultra-conservatism.
As for rape being the "norm" in Arthurian tales, whether it's accepted or not it's still an assholish thing to do.

The elven situation is also portrayed as evil, with the rapist always being something of a villain. We don't, for instance, get Alistair randomly raping some elven wench and acting like it was perfectly normal. Even the chevaliers are portrayed as antagonists. It would be MUCH darker if Wynne were to, say, take all the Elfroots from the Alienage because the army needed it, and it's clearly normal to sacrifice the lives of elves for the comfort of soldiers...

A rapist is someone of a certain personality, who think they have the right to claim whatever they desire.
Alistair is not like that, and as it turns out nobody who would rape would be particularily likable.
If Arthurian tales glorify rapists as heroes, then that doesn't make them dark, it makes their writer an idiot.

In FF VII (I think), common soldiers were turned into experimental subjects by Shinra for the purpose of creating energy. Some of them were turned into batteries. This was not actually portrayed negatively.

Shinra used reactors to draw "soul energy" from the planet and compress it into electricity.
It also engaged in experiments to make monsters and supermen, but not batteries.
In any case, both these things were portrayed extremely negatively considering that they were the bad guys.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[Roxlimn]

Rhys Cordelle:



That definition has always struck me as being somewhat ambiguous, even then. (Yes, I'm that old). How is it that Lord of the Rings is NOT dark, but Elric series is? How is it that Howard Conan is dark but Arthurian Legend is not?



Dragon Age is not particularly about tales of horror, Broodmother notwithstanding. It is not about forces beyond human understanding, as your hero pretty much perfectly understands what's going on - kill the enemy or everybody dies. This is no different from the threat of the Dark Lord, who is also technically beyond the ken of normal people.

[Herr Uhl]

Tonya777 wrote...

Cool I guess , I'm gonna kill Sten , Shale , & Oghrens useless annoying asses on a newer save then

I did kill Caridin on many of my saves , but didn't have Shale there with me when I did it so do I have to bring him to that fight to get him to turn on me? I would LOVE to kill Shale hes a f*****!

You can kill Sten right away you know. So with him I don't see the problem.

[LordAsael]

The game is dark, but not horribly so. I admit I was hoping for more, since in many cases I enjoy playing the anti-hero archetype first time through a game. I was more than a little disappointed when Kaitlyn offered to do anything in repayment should I find her brother ... and anything turned out to be just a kiss from a pretty girl. Sure, maybe even that is sorta taboo in this world ... but certainly didn't fit what I had hoped to have my character doing.

[Tonya777]

I hate Sten & Shale BIG TIME , so thanks for the info I will enjoy slitting their pixelated throats! >

[Tonya777]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Tonya777 wrote...

Cool I guess , I'm gonna kill Sten , Shale , & Oghrens useless annoying asses on a newer save then

I did kill Caridin on many of my saves , but didn't have Shale there with me when I did it so do I have to bring him to that fight to get him to turn on me? I would LOVE to kill Shale hes a f*****!

You can kill Sten right away you know. So with him I don't see the problem.

Its not as satisfying to just leave him sitting in a cage knowing that darkspawn will devour his corpse when theres no cutscene to prove it happened , as far as I know you can't actually stab him in the cage or anything only leave him sitting there to be murdered by darkspawn

[ReubenLiew]

LordAsael wrote...

The game is dark, but not horribly so. I admit I was hoping for more, since in many cases I enjoy playing the anti-hero archetype first time through a game. I was more than a little disappointed when Kaitlyn offered to do anything in repayment should I find her brother ... and anything turned out to be just a kiss from a pretty girl. Sure, maybe even that is sorta taboo in this world ... but certainly didn't fit what I had hoped to have my character doing.

What, right in the middle of the undead invasion?

...

Thats pretty hot too I guess.

[Herr Uhl]

LordAsael wrote...

The game is dark, but not horribly so. I admit I was hoping for more, since in many cases I enjoy playing the anti-hero archetype first time through a game. I was more than a little disappointed when Kaitlyn offered to do anything in repayment should I find her brother ... and anything turned out to be just a kiss from a pretty girl. Sure, maybe even that is sorta taboo in this world ... but certainly didn't fit what I had hoped to have my character doing.

I think that she is younger than she seems, and pedophilia is something that gaming companies does not want to touch with a ten foot pole. My guess is at her being 14-16.

[Rhys Cordelle]

Roxlimn wrote...

In FF VII (I think), common soldiers were turned into experimental subjects by Shinra for the purpose of creating energy. Some of them were turned into batteries. This was not actually portrayed negatively.
.

Rubbish. Cloud is shocked and repulsed by what he sees, and it's one more reason why Hojo and Shinra need to be stopped.

You're so hung up on this notion that horrific acts need to be portrayed as normal in order to qualify as dark fantasy.

What about Duncan killing Jory?
What about the Exalted March against the Elves?
What about invoking the right of conscription to force people into drinking darkspawn blood, at the risk of immediate death and, if surviving that, inevitable descent into madness?

Every work of fiction is a series of conflicts. There have to be some people who think an action is negative and some who don't. You keep speaking of novels where rape is not considered wrong. Maybe that's true from the perspective of the point of view characters, but you can't seriously think that's universally true? The issue of rape in Dragon Age is dealt with from the perspective of the victims, of course it's going to be portrayed negatively (as it bloody well should!)

[Herr Uhl]

Tonya777 wrote...

Its not as satisfying to just leave him sitting in a cage knowing that darkspawn will devour his corpse when theres no cutscene to prove it happened , as far as I know you can't actually stab him in the cage or anything only leave him sitting there to be murdered by darkspawn

Leaving him to starve/being eaten by darkspawn lacks the personal touch, but it is much less merciful than killing him in an instant, to me at least.

[The Angry One]

In the end there's only so much a game can get away with these days without coming under the scrutiny of the idiocracy currently in control of much of our media and government.

Look at Mass Effect, corrupting our children with the horrors of NAKED CONSENSUAL SEX.

[ReubenLiew]

Was she that young? Totally didn't get that vibe from her.

Well no touch no foul!

[Roxlimn]

Bibdy:



Neither Lord of the Rings nor Arthurian Fantasy nor Grimm Fairy Tales are considered Dark Fantasy.



The Angry One:

It's presented as the norm, not "negatively" unless you play a dwarven commoner, in which case of course it's negative since you are again the victim.

In fact in Orzammar, picking the supposedly "good" king Harrowmont results in even more class abuse due to his ultra-conservatism.

As for rape being the "norm" in Arthurian tales, whether it's accepted or not it's still an assholish thing to do.

It's presented as a DWARVEN norm, which as an outsider, seems inhuman and uncommon to you. And of course, the game also portrays the other side.



In Arthurian tales, being a peasant was so uniformly horrible that getting raped by a noble was considered more or less okay - your presumed offspring might have a shot at success and take you along with him. Indeed, it was implied that some nobles considered it a favor, and these characters were in no way portrayed as villains.

A rapist is someone of a certain personality, who think they have the right to claim whatever they desire.

Alistair is not like that, and as it turns out nobody who would rape would be particularily likable.

If Arthurian tales glorify rapists as heroes, then that doesn't make them dark, it makes their writer an idiot.

That's exactly my point. You have such a bright and shiny view of the world that you cannot imagine Alistair doing that being who he is otherwise. In an Arthurian or Magician tale, he might.

Shinra used reactors to draw "soul energy" from the planet and compress it into electricity.

It also engaged in experiments to make monsters and supermen, but not batteries.

In any case, both these things were portrayed extremely negatively considering that they were the bad guys.

No - SOME rogue elements of Shinra were the bad guys. In general, they were viewed as benefactors of humanity who made life better for everyone involved. This is why when they outlaw you, there is no massive outcry and there is no outwelling of support.



In FF VII the people didn't care how things got done as long as the details weren't too clear. Cloud was a mutant clone and nobody cared - as long as he was good in a fight, he was okay.

[Tonya777]

Yeah but I alreadt left Sten to starve to near death before being murdered viciously and then eaten by darkspawn on multiple occasions so next time I gotta kill him personally

[KnightofPhoenix]

ReubenLiew wrote...

It's no 40k, but it has it's moments.

Sadly even 40k is being ruined these days, with the over-glorifying of the space marines, which leads to fans over-glorifying eldars or tau (especially those).

Sure Dragon Age is not the darkest thing in the world. It has humour. It has some good feeling moments. I think it makes it more realistic anyhow. A game or story that screams "I am darkx!!!" is kinda of annoying. The thing that really kills it is the seemingly mindless darkspawns that do give the impression of a Lord of the Ring overpowered fellowship (nobody freakin dies!). Perhaps the darkspans can be shown in a more complex light, if not them then at least the Archdemons.

So far, I think Mass Effect was darker as far as general storyline is concerned. And that's mostly due to the mysterious nature of the reapers. If they do turn out to be just mad machines, then Mass Effect's darkness would dissapear. For me, darkness is not blood, rape, murder and all that. It's rather complexity, tragedy and black humour. Realism if you will.

[Roxlimn]

Rhys Cordelle:



In many cases, Arthurian tales are told from the perspective of bastards - abandoned sons of nobles who randomly rape some peasant woman on the way somewhere more interesting. They do not begrudge the act or their origins. There is no hint that their mothers consider them bad.

[Herr Uhl]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Was she that young? Totally didn't get that vibe from her.
Well no touch no foul!

Her very girly behavior when you ask for a kiss and that she keeps referring to herself as an orphan gives me that vibe. May be wrong though.

[The Angry One]

Roxlimn wrote...

It's presented as a DWARVEN norm, which as an outsider, seems inhuman and uncommon to you. And of course, the game also portrays the other side.

So? It's still a norm, and you can either agree with it or disagree.
You can't move the goalposts now and say "oh well it's just one nation/race!".

In Arthurian tales, being a peasant was so uniformly horrible that getting raped by a noble was considered more or less okay - your presumed offspring might have a shot at success and take you along with him. Indeed, it was implied that some nobles considered it a favor, and these characters were in no way portrayed as villains.

That's exactly my point. You have such a bright and shiny view of the world that you cannot imagine Alistair doing that being who he is otherwise. In an Arthurian or Magician tale, he might.

So for you dark must mean rape is okay? Why? There are other things that can make a world dark without making our characters look like pond scum.

No - SOME rogue elements of Shinra were the bad guys. In general, they were viewed as benefactors of humanity who made life better for everyone involved. This is why when they outlaw you, there is no massive outcry and there is no outwelling of support.

In FF VII the people didn't care how things got done as long as the details weren't too clear. Cloud was a mutant clone and nobody cared - as long as he was good in a fight, he was okay.

FFVII was very cut and dry about this, Shinra are the bad guys. They do bad things. They kidnap people. They break promises with the good guys. They kick puppies and eat babies.
Rogue element? Not unless you're idea of a corporate rogue element is the president, the entire executive board save for one, the entire research staff and 99% of the security force.

Edit: Here's a nice example of Shinra's beneficial actions:

www.youtube.com/watch

Squiiiiish.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:18 .

[Rhys Cordelle]

So far all you've given is examples from books and a very inaccurate portrayal of Final Fantasy VII. Any other rpgs you would consider darker than Dragon Age?

[ReubenLiew]

I personally found Portal to be pretty dark.

And it was hilarious as hell! Something doesn't need to be /evil is the norm yarr!/ to be dark, it just has to be something that makes the players/readers/watchers feel very uneasy about the setting and background.

[Roxlimn]

Rhys Cordelle:



I did not get that impression from playing the game. From what I remember, Cloud is shocked and horrified to learn about WHO he was and how he came to be, since it was so at odds with his memories. NO one else really cared about his past, which leads me to believe that it was not portrayed as horrific as you seem to imply.



The Exalted March against the Elves is no different from any other racially driven war in any other fantasy setting. If anything, it was more forgiving because outright genocide was not commited against the Elves, where otherwise it could have been the case.



Right of Conscription? Pshaw. Every world with perilous tests about Secret Orders does it that way.



Duncan killing Jory? Same deal. The contract was death or ritual. It was obvious by the time Duncan drew his blade. Not so unusual. Not particularly horrific or realistic.

[Bibdy]

So, when you look at colours, does light-blue seem like more of a green to you, because its not as blue as dark blue? Or is light-blue still kinda blue, just not ridiculously blue?

[Rhys Cordelle]

Well, something tells me the kind of game you'd expect from dark fantasy wouldn't be allowed to see the light of day. I offered the definition of dark fantasy, you disagreed with it. If you want to define dark fantasy in your own way then it's hardly fair to complain that Dragon Age is being touted as dark fantasy by the generally accepted definition.

[Saurel]

I tend to agree with those saying that it doesn't really fall into the dark fantasy camp per se. It certainly has dark elements and it sometimes succeeds. As has been mentioned- the broodmother.

But I would say any sense of dread or overall tragedy is usually perturbed by the need to emphasize Heroisicism. The constant "I am a Grey WARDEN! HERE TO STOP THE BLIGHT OF GENERIC EVILIES!"

"S/hes a Grey Warden! It is their duty!"

Now you could say Loghain and others don't think of you that heroically, but from all that he are shown from a narrative perspective....ya there is a reason people are on the board defiantly saying "To be a Grey Warden requires sacrifice".

Lets not forget the demons, who basically wear a sign "I am evil". Others can say thats just what the Chantry tells you (in defense of the game), but come on.... all that "I will eat your soul" crap..

Modifié par Saurel, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:27 .