328 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

Actually I found the daemons in this games to be pansies.

But I have been introduced to warhammer and berzerk's version of daemons so I might be spoilt. Its the one thing in this game that wasn't 'dark' enough, in my opinion.

The Fade should've been something out of Psychonauts, that would've made this game of the year in an instant.

[Roxlimn]

 The Angry One:

So? It's still a norm, and you can either agree with it or disagree.
You can't move the goalposts now and say "oh well it's just one nation/race!".

Well, clearly since the Casteless are rebelling against it, it's not all that much of a norm, is it?

So for you dark must mean rape is okay? Why? There are other things that can make a world dark without making our characters look like pond scum.

I mean that if it's going to bill itself as "dark fantasy," then I think it ought to portray a particularly and consistently horrific atmosphere, which it doesn't, or a grim and gritty reality, which it also doesn't.  It's pretty much very like LOTR, actually.

FFVII was very cut and dry about this, Shinra are the bad guys. They do bad things. They kidnap people. They break promises with the good guys. They kick puppies and eat babies.
Rogue element? Not unless you're idea of a corporate rogue element is the president, the entire executive board save for one, the entire research staff and 99% of the security force.

Edit: Here's a nice example of Shinra's beneficial actions:

They also built that city to begin with and power everything in it.

Rhys Cordelle:

Don't do much RPGs to begin with, and I'm not a fan of the entire "dark" thing.  I wasn't convinced that Dragon Age was this "dark fantasy" thing and true enough, it's not.  No emo vampire crap, no abject horror and despair, no grim and gritty reality where you can die of hunger.

To be blunt, I don't see all that much different between DAO and Baldur's Gate and other similar RPGs.  Slavery and wholesale slaughter DOES occur in D&D worlds, too, you know.

[Rhys Cordelle]

Lets not forget the demons, who basically wear a sign "I am evil". Others can say thats just what the Chantry tells you (in defense of the game), but if come on.... all that "I will eat your soul" crap..

How would you expect demons to behave? And how is this an argument for DA not being dark? You get a number of opportunities to side with these "eat your soul" demons.



Also, there are pride demons who are more cunning and less noticable. It's entirely possible that Loghain was corrupted by one without us ever knowing it, or who knows who else in the game.

[Saurel]

ReubenLiew wrote...

But I have been introduced to warhammer and berzerk's version of daemons so I might be spoilt. Its the one thing in this game that wasn't 'dark' enough, in my opinion.

Berserks versions of demons are great. Horrifying and hard to grasp with an intrinsic tie to humanity.

[Roxlimn]

Rhys Cordelle:



It doesn't even agree with YOUR proferred definition! It's not particularly horrific in the vein of Lovecraftian games, it's not particularly despairing in the sense of Demon's Soul, nor all that gritty in the sense of Conan games.



It's a LOT like D&D, actually, and that has never billed itself as "dark fantasy."

[Saurel]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Lets not forget the demons, who basically wear a sign "I am evil". Others can say thats just what the Chantry tells you (in defense of the game), but if come on.... all that "I will eat your soul" crap..

How would you expect demons to behave? And how is this an argument for DA not being dark? You get a number of opportunities to side with these "eat your soul" demons.

Also, there are pride demons who are more cunning and less noticable. It's entirely possible that Loghain was corrupted by one without us ever knowing it, or who knows who else in the game.

You tend to associate dark with a world where things are easily classified as black and white?

Dark is where the world is convoluted , where there is tragedy lurking underneath the surface of any villain- much like reality. When something is easily categorized as something that must be destroyed the Heroics take precedence over any feeling of atmosphere.

[The Angry One]

Roxlimn wrote...

Well, clearly since the Casteless are rebelling against it, it's not all that much of a norm, is it?

Rebelling? Last I checked organised crime isn't a rebellion.
And the casteless don't like being under the heel of the rest of society? No, really?

I mean that if it's going to bill itself as "dark fantasy," then I think it ought to portray a particularly and consistently horrific atmosphere, which it doesn't, or a grim and gritty reality, which it also doesn't.  It's pretty much very like LOTR, actually.

There's a difference between potraying a dark and horrific atmosphere, and making all the characters iredeemable douchebags.
In a game we like relating to *someone*

They also built that city to begin with and power everything in it.

That gives them the right to arbitrarily squash people in it does it?
You do remember what happens to that city by the end don't you? It's quite clear what the writers thought of it.

[Niten Ryu]

Yathzee said it best - Dragon Age isn't dark fantasy nor light, gray, avocado, beige... it's just fantasy. I call it generic fantasy because it's safe and familar. It's like so many fantasy settings you've seen before that even the first time you played it, you felt like you've seen this countless of times. And 2 complite runs later, that's what it still feel like.

[Saurel]

Niten Ryu wrote...

Yathzee said it best - Dragon Age isn't dark fantasy nor light, gray, avocado, beige... it's just fantasy. I call it generic fantasy because it's safe and familar. It's like so many fantasy settings you've seen before that even the first time you played it, you felt like you've seen this countless of times. And 2 complite runs later, that's what it still feel like.

Its like the nerdy guy trying to impress the goth girl at starbucks

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...

 The Angry One:

So? It's still a norm, and you can either agree with it or disagree.
You can't move the goalposts now and say "oh well it's just one nation/race!".

Well, clearly since the Casteless are rebelling against it, it's not all that much of a norm, is it?

So for you dark must mean rape is okay? Why? There are other things that can make a world dark without making our characters look like pond scum.

I mean that if it's going to bill itself as "dark fantasy," then I think it ought to portray a particularly and consistently horrific atmosphere, which it doesn't, or a grim and gritty reality, which it also doesn't.  It's pretty much very like LOTR, actually.

FFVII was very cut and dry about this, Shinra are the bad guys. They do bad things. They kidnap people. They break promises with the good guys. They kick puppies and eat babies.
Rogue element? Not unless you're idea of a corporate rogue element is the president, the entire executive board save for one, the entire research staff and 99% of the security force.

Edit: Here's a nice example of Shinra's beneficial actions:

They also built that city to begin with and power everything in it.

Rhys Cordelle:

Don't do much RPGs to begin with, and I'm not a fan of the entire "dark" thing.  I wasn't convinced that Dragon Age was this "dark fantasy" thing and true enough, it's not.  No emo vampire crap, no abject horror and despair, no grim and gritty reality where you can die of hunger.

To be blunt, I don't see all that much different between DAO and Baldur's Gate and other similar RPGs.  Slavery and wholesale slaughter DOES occur in D&D worlds, too, you know.

Pretty sure you weren't able to slit the throat of a child in BG, and other similar RPGs. Or had to make the call between killing good, upstanding person A, or childlike innocent person B. Choose to murder your own brother in cold blood because you think he's out to murder you first. Watch someone murder another to keep a secret and keep your lips tight about it. Kill a flock of people because they might be possessed by demons, but you don't really know.

I want to play the BG and BG2 you're looking at with rose-tinted glasses.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:38 .

[Roxlimn]

The Broodmother wasn't even all that horrific to begin with, given that it happened to someone you didn't know - that lessens the impact of the horror significantly. Now if Morrigan ended up that way after you got to know and slept with her... ...or Leliana, even.

[The Angry One]

Niten Ryu wrote...

Yathzee said it best - Dragon Age isn't dark fantasy nor light, gray, avocado, beige... it's just fantasy. I call it generic fantasy because it's safe and familar. It's like so many fantasy settings you've seen before that even the first time you played it, you felt like you've seen this countless of times. And 2 complite runs later, that's what it still feel like.

Let's not bring in the opinions of boring, insipid, attention seeking reviewers who wouldn't know the difference between real time and turn based RPG combat if it hit them on the head and called them Marlon.

[The Angry One]

Roxlimn wrote...

The Broodmother wasn't even all that horrific to begin with, given that it happened to someone you didn't know - that lessens the impact of the horror significantly. Now if Morrigan ended up that way after you got to know and slept with her... ...or Leliana, even.

If Morrigan ended up that way I'd laugh.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Roxlimn wrote...

The Broodmother wasn't even all that horrific to begin with, given that it happened to someone you didn't know - that lessens the impact of the horror significantly. Now if Morrigan ended up that way after you got to know and slept with her... ...or Leliana, even.

Ok the fact that Morrigan left my PC and both are sad about it, is dark enough already, thank you very much.

[Taleroth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

The Broodmother wasn't even all that horrific to begin with, given that it happened to someone you didn't know - that lessens the impact of the horror significantly. Now if Morrigan ended up that way after you got to know and slept with her... ...or Leliana, even.

Ok the fact that Morrigan left my PC and both are sad about it, is dark enough already, thank you very much.

That's not dark!  Dark in this context refers to horror.  Not sadness.

[The Angry One]

It's dark when you realise she took all the beer.

[Sylph_14]

I think peoples interpretations of what is dark is going to vary, so it may be rather pointless to debate whether it is or it isn't.



Personally, I didn't find it all that dark, as it lacked the sense of hopelessness I tend to associate with "dark" entertainment. Maybe if you weren't given the treaties and a majority of people actually did believe the Grey Wardens were the bad guys to be turned on, the main quest would feel a lot more like an impossible task. But again, that's just my opinion.

[Roxlimn]

 The Angry One:

Rebelling? Last I checked organised crime isn't a rebellion. 
And the casteless don't like being under the heel of the rest of society? No, really?

When India still believed in the caste system, the Untouchables weren't reacting that way and certainly didn't have organized crime.

Casteless in Orzammar are socially self-aware.  It's as if Karl Marx went down there and stayed awhile.

There's a difference between potraying a dark and horrific atmosphere, and making all the characters iredeemable douchebags.
In a game we like relating to *someone*

True.  Dragon Age does not portray any particularly horrific or dark atmosphere.

That gives them the right to arbitrarily squash people in it does it?
You do remember what happens to that city by the end don't you? It's quite clear what the writers thought of it.

Even if what you say is true, ultimately it wins over to my argument - it's a dark story, then.

Bibdy:

Pretty sure you weren't able to slit the throat of a child in BG, and other similar RPGs. Or had to make the call between killing good, upstanding person A, or childlike innocent person B. Choose to murder your own brother in cold blood because you think he's out to murder you first.

Oh yeah, that stuff's totally normal.

Actually, in fantasy, stuff like that IS perfectly normal.  Grimm Fairy Tales are particularly grim, featuring kids murdering their siblings, leaving them to death, or consigning them to everlasting curses.

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

It's dark when you realise she took all the beer.

Wait... we had beer?

It was probably light, anyway.  *grumble*

Modifié par Taleroth, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

The Broodmother wasn't even all that horrific to begin with, given that it happened to someone you didn't know - that lessens the impact of the horror significantly. Now if Morrigan ended up that way after you got to know and slept with her... ...or Leliana, even.

Ok the fact that Morrigan left my PC and both are sad about it, is dark enough already, thank you very much.

That's not dark!  Dark in this context refers to horror.  Not sadness.

Dark does not necessarily mean horror (one of the most ridiculous genres in entertainement history). It's tragedy that defines what we today call "darkness". At least that's how I see it.
The broodmother segment was not horror. It was the feeling of disgust and shock. But I doubt anyone was screaming about it, or had nightmares.  

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...


Actually, in fantasy, stuff like that IS perfectly normal.  Grimm Fairy Tales are particularly grim, featuring kids murdering their siblings, leaving them to death, or consigning them to everlasting curses.

Okay..so where is it in Baldur's Gate and other fantasy games you've played?

Because, really, I feel like I missed out.

I thought Baldur's Gate 1 was just a romp through countryside killing everything in your path to get the loot you want and gaining levels until you ran out of places to go, so you followed the main quest, where everything is super lovely happy and about the worst of it was having to kill your own brother because he was a megolomaniacal douchebag. And Baldur's Gate 2 was killing **** for cash to buy a boat (and yet more countryside romping for items and XP), follow the main quest and about the worst decision you had to make was whether to trick the silver dragon out of her eggs or not.

Even the Drow area was a total disappointment. There was an opportunity for good characters to have to make difficult decisions in order to convince all the drow that you're a giant **** like the rest of them, but no, you can go through the whole ordeal being super happy goody two-shoes and they're stupid enough to believe it.

Great as they were, they sure as hell aren't anywhere on the radar screen of 'dark', in my opinion.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[Saurel]

Sylph_14 wrote...

I think peoples interpretations of what is dark is going to vary, so it may be rather pointless to debate whether it is or it isn't.

Personally, I didn't find it all that dark, as it lacked the sense of hopelessness I tend to associate with "dark" entertainment. Maybe if you weren't given the treaties and a majority of people actually did believe the Grey Wardens were the bad guys to be turned on, the main quest would feel a lot more like an impossible task. But again, that's just my opinion.

Now that would have been nice if being a Grey Warden meant diddly squat

[Taleroth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dark does not necessarily mean horror (one of the most ridiculous genres in entertainement history). It's tragedy that defines what we today call "darkness". At least that's how I see it.

Dark Fantasy is defined as a subgenre of fantasy that is mixed with horror.  The prime example being the works of H.P. Lovecraft.

In closer context, we should look to Ravenloft or Dark Sun.  Vampire or Warhammer (which often claims to be the original Dark Fantasy game).

Modifié par Taleroth, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[Shadow6773]

The game is "dark" because of the choices it forces you to make after getting sucked into the game. The OP calls its weak because "no main characters die" ...in some instances, but obviously his definition of "dark" is pretty black and white. Also LOTR is a horrible example as many of the main characters such as aragorn and his lovely elf wife survive along with frodo sam and even freakin old bilbo. I suppose the grey wardens being wiped out isn't as good as the rangers? Seriously, teapot calling the kettle black here. Oh by the way the main character is doomed to die anyhow from the taint as that a death sentence. You are also backstabbed so many times you need extra back armor depending on the choices you make.

ANYHOW....

I belive having to make a choice between killing a possesed child or his mother using forbbiden blood magic is a "dark" theme.

I'm pretty sure the choices of wiping out the elves and the whole cursed werewolf thing was a pretty dark situation too, which btw stemmed from past killings and rape.

There are also plenty of other ways to "be a jerk" in game, yes. BUT, the reason this game is dark is because its not just a black and white game like most others. In that sense I mean its similiar to real life...ya know, where the choices are not always clear cut and you are forced in positions in which sometimes there is no "good" moral choice and no matter what ur going to upset someone or cause pain to others.
Its not always just "be good" or "be bad" like many other games. Even deciding if you should tell a grieving mother of a side character there son is alive and messed up or lying and saying he is dead is not a happy theme. You saying, "well this happens all the time in other fantasy stuff" isn't a really a good arguement. I mean mass genocide occurs in Africa on a daily basis too but just cause thatis not unheard of that doesn't make it any less dark or messed up. Honestly OP if you had no issues making any of the tough choices in this game..and there were ALOT, I think this has more to do with your temperment and lack of empathy then if the game is really "dark".

Modifié par Shadow6773, 01 décembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[Roxlimn]

Alright, I'm going to brass tacks here. Since people are asking for some measure of what I would consider dark, here's what I would consider dark:



1. Lots of player controlled characters, but character death is always permanent, enforced by a hard auto-save. This emphasizes despair and the cheapness of life.



2. Horrific things happening to people you REALLY get to know and like. Like Alistair. Or whoever you happen to fancy. A gradual, creeping change would be preferable, but a sudden horrific revelation would be great, too.



3. Few allies, lots of enemies. Game has a lot of encounters where you are tasked to cover a losing retreat, possibly losing close people in the process. This emphasizes the hopelessness of your situation.



4. Occasional party splits in dire combats where you don't know whether your allies survived or not. Sometimes they don't.