328 réponses à ce sujet

[bjlinden]

You're right that the advertisements claiming DAO to be "dark fantasy" are somewhat misleading. You're right that it's nowhere near as dark as some Conan stories, the original Grimm fairy tales, certain interpretations of Arthurian legend, or something like Berserk, because dark fantasy always includes an air of hopelessness that DAO lacks. Even though you haven't mentioned it, you'd be right if you said that it would be better billed as "low fantasy," in opposition to the more common "high fantasy," but that calling it "dark fantasy" is erroneous...

However, your feeble, misguided attempts to deny that it is significantly MORE dark than LOTR, the versions of Grimm's fairy tales and Arthurian legends that people actually read, ANY Final Fantasy game, any D&D setting other than Ravenloft and possibly Dark Sun, most major fantasy series, pretty much anything that could reasonably be called an "iconic staple of modern fantasy," or any of the other pitiful excuses for "dark" you've dreamed up in your pathetic attempts to prove yourself right at all costs, show that you are both too misguided and pigheadedly stubborn to be reasoned with, and any further attempt to explain why you are so wrong about this is a waste of both my, and every other poster's time.

I mean, seriously, Lord of the Rings, dark? You, sir, are a buffoon.

Modifié par bjlinden, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Aragon had no reason to marry Arwen? Wtf? He LOVED her, isn't that the ONLY reason one should get married? (at least looking at the paper).

And of course you aren't to blame for a lot of tradegies, goddamn it, but it is part of the human psyche to blame oneself for some of them, especially tradegies we have been involved in ourselves. Or are you really that emotionally stunted you can't see either of these points? Again I will point out that dark isn't neccesarily large scale It does not have to be doom and despair on a global scale. Alcoholism destroying an otherwise firm and just man, is a dark theme. Accidently killing someone is a dark theme. Guilt is a dark theme. Dragon age got plenty of these.

The reason Kaitlyn's little brother is a side quest is oddly enough because it has squat influence on the main quest, who the **** gives a rat's arse wether you saved some peasant girls baby brother? Connor and Isolde is important to the plot because they are the son and wife of Arl Eamon, a man who's support you need.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:32 .

[Roxlimn]

Calling me a buffoon doesn't do anything, you know. In Lord of the Rings, people are separated by a veil beyond Death itself. Heroes strive to save nations and loved ones they KNOW they will never see again, without any certainty that they will succeed. Minor characters die left and right, and at the end of the story, only 3 characters are left alive in Middle Earth out of 9.



Saruman, the tacit Leader of the White Council betrays everyone and seeks to destroy Rohan through genocide - not one Rohirrim is to be left alive. He does this by an army of half-men and half-orcs that are spawned through dark deeds and ritual.



Denethor, the Steward of the last bastion of Gondor outright tells you that you are already lost - that choosing which manner of death is really your only option, and proves he believes it by committing suicide, from which you cannot save him.



Meanwhile, our so-called hero is choosing to cooperate with a known serial murderer and aberration known only as Gollum because he suspects that this may be his ultimate fate - to be a slave to the Ring's addictive power.



I mean, seriously, have you READ the thing?

[Roxlimn]

EmperorSalertz:

Aragon had no reason to wed Arwen? Wtf? He LOVED her, isn't that the ONLY reason one should get married? (at least looking at the paper).

In Elrond's case, getting married this way means that Arwen is worse than dead to him - even in death, he will NEVER have any hope of ever seeing her. So yes, I rather think that love is insufficient as a reason to deprive a man of his daughter for a time beyond even death.



Alcoholism doesn't destroy that guy. The death of his daughter did it. Alcohol was just a temporary escape. Accidentally killing people isn't a particularly dark theme, IMO. It's indulgent and emo, but not dark. You have no control over accidents beyond what you have. That's why they're called accidents.



Guilt is an everyday topic in many Christian sermons. Hardly a dark theme there.



Some few of my patients have died under my care. Some people don't have what it takes and quit. Yes, I can clearly see how you can blame yourself. I also clearly see that it's stupid and arrogant to do so. You are not God. You can't save everyone, no matter how hard you try. Everybody dies, eventually.



Seriously, dude, you're preaching to the choir here. It feels icky and bad, but ultimately, you are not God. Not getting over it strikes me not as dark but petty and indulgent. Some people can afford to be all emo and crap. I can't, and I have no sympathy for people who choose to wallow in pointless self-destructive guilt just because they can.



I mean seriously, is LOTR not dark because Aragorn doesn't go all emo about how he couldn't save Theoden? People die - it happens. Either you can do something about it or you can't. Letting it get you down only gets more people killed and THAT is something that's your fault.

[Rhys Cordelle]

I'd forgotten about Vampire: Bloodlines. That definitely qualifies as darker than Dragon Age, though not nearly as graphic in violence.

[Driveninhifi]

I wouldn't say LOTR is significantly darker than Dragon Age at all. There's some nasty stuff in there - orcs throwing severed heads into cities they siege, rings that steal your soul, betrayal, blood, guts. It's actually quite dark.

It would be hard to make a 50 hour game that is completely hopeless without the player feeling like the developers just totally screwed him over. It might be easier with a shorter game, or maybe one where the PC is not a blank slate - but I feel like no matter how it's dressed up, a western cRPG is basically some form of wish fulfillment so it would be really hard to end in a satisfactory way without seeming like you are forcing the dark tone on the player (Not to mention doing that after giving the player choices essentially tells the player that all the choices they've been given are actually meaningless). Now, if DA really wanted to be "dark" they should have killed the PC at the end regardless of whether you did the ritual or not. Actually, the Morrigan plot would have been more satisfying with that outcome, I think. Of course, that would have likely pissed off a lot of people, but it would have been a unique outcome, at least.

I do agree that DAO is more "low fantasy" than anything else, but I associate "dark fantasy" with more horrific HP Lovecraft type stuff.

[Vormaerin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Talking about Grimm's Fairy Tales as dark fantasy is problematic. Fantasy is a modern publishing genre. Dark fantasy is a sub-genre that borrows thematic elements from horror as well as noir and is part of a larger trend in fiction towards ‘darker’ stories.

Comparing it to pre-modern works is a bit like saying that Citizen Kane isn’t tragic because unlike Oedipus Rex, Hamlet, or King Lear, the main character isn’t a king or royalty. Removing a work from its cultural and genre context isn’t a good idea.

Not sure why you quoted me and then made the above statement.  I earlier pointed out what dark fantasy was as a publishing genre.   My comment that you responded to was a rebuttal of the idea that Grimm's Fairy tales are normative, which they are not.   If you get a random 100 readers, even of just fantasy, and ask them to describe Cinderella, I doubt you'd get 5 you mention anything about self mutilation.

The OP is creating an edifice built on specious arguments and gross exaggerations.   Its very easy to prove that Dragon Age is not in the "Dark Fantasy" literary genre, though none of his arguments actually do that.   He is apparently trying to establish that DA is run of the mill heroic fantasy, which is manifestly is not.   Despite his extremely tortured attempts to portray LotR, Arthurian Tales, and Final Fantasy as having grim elements of the same degree as DA, they don't.   Nor does Conan.   Bad guys being bad and awful stuff happening off screen is not the same as protagonists making difficult and unpleasant choices in camera.   There's not one decision in LotR, Baldur's Gate, or any of REH's Conan stories similiar to the choice in Redcliffe Castle, for example.

[Walina]

At least Lord of the rings became the core of many stories so I give more credits to Tolkien. After all he writen, he still wanted to give some "hapiness" and hope at the end of his story so i am glad to have liked lord of the rings.



Tolkien gave you hope that even in dark times there still can be hope and kindness in the word.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Roxlimn wrote...

Both totally forseeable. Frankly, I was surprised Zevran didn't turn sooner, given how badly I was treating him. For that matter, Shale, Wynne, and Leliana can all turn on you, but every one of those is believable and predictable.

I really wonder what is wrong with that.....

The elven situation is also portrayed as evil, with the rapist always being something of a villain. We don't, for instance, get Alistair randomly raping some elven wench and acting like it was perfectly normal. Even the chevaliers are portrayed as antagonists. It would be MUCH darker if Wynne were to, say, take all the Elfroots from the Alienage because the army needed it, and it's clearly normal to sacrifice the lives of elves for the comfort of soldiers...

I actualyl see Morrigan do something liek that.
But really, I can't grasp what your idea of dark fantasy is. Every charcter must be a douchebag? Is that it? You're not considering DA:Odark becase the good characters are not bad?

Sure, there are darker fantasy games and dewfinately darker books. But the balance is perfect for me. Just enough darkness and light. Makes for a believable world. Most dark fantasy settings I've seen are TOO dark, almost comicly so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DA:O is a HEROIC DARK Fantasy

[kevinwastaken]

Dragon Age needs more rape, got it.

[gotthammer]

DA:O needs Chaos warriors (tho' some of those Hurlocks in the Ostagar battle looked like Khorne Berserkers...), Skaven, Vampire Counts, Witch Hunters (w/ the cool hats and coats!) and an oppressive sense of despair...

Hmm. Among other things, shouldn't despair/hope be one of the more defining things as far as distinctions between 'normal'/high fantasy and 'dark' fantasy are concerned?

I mean, as an example, wouldn't the apparent lack of hope in Warhammer, among it's other dark themes (corruption, constant war, etc.), be one of the key things that sets it apart from, say, Lord of the Rings? (i.e., in LotR, there is a clear way to get rid of the threat: chuck the One Ring into the Crack o' Doom. Whereas in WH Fantasy, there isn't...in fact, it's constantly stated that Chaos threatens to corrupt all...)

So I guess that's where the Heroic bit comes in? The element of Hope (i.e., if we can kill the Archdemon, we end the Blight)? So would that make DA:O, Heroic fantasy with dark themes? *shrugs* (just wondering, mind, I was not a Lit. major)

Modifié par gotthammer, 01 décembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LIES!! The Empereor of Mankind shall return. He is the hope! PURGE THE UNBELIEVER!!!!

[Popemaster123]

eschilde wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes, the fact the grey warden killing the archdemon traditionally dies is the "dark" part in this game.

Not the raping of second citizen elves, social outcasting of the casteless, imprisonment of magi and destruction of the country.

What, that doesn't sound like a good time to you?

Why do i even use this forum?

[Popemaster123]

kevinwastaken wrote...

Dragon Age needs more rape, got it.

Ive said it before ill say it again....Why do i use this forum? Or play this game?

[TheDrunkenPanda]

We do not know what our chances of survival are, so we fight as if they were zero. We do not know what we are facing, so we fight as if it was the dark gods themselves. No one will remember us now and we may never be buried beneath Titan, so we will build our own memorial here. The Chapter might lose us and the Imperium might never know we existed, but the Enemy — the Enemy will know. The Enemy will remember. We will hurt it so badly that it will never forget us until the stars burn out and the Emperor vanquishes it at the end of time. When Chaos is dying, its last thought will be of us. That is our memorial —- carved into the heart of Chaos. We cannot lose, Grey Knights. We have already won.



...oh, wait. Wrong universe. Hrm. Dragon Age seems a mite darker than most RPGs I've played recently, but comparing Dragon Age (correctly or incorrectly) to something like LotR seems a bit....unfair. Sort of like comparing the original Star Wars Trilogy to a single episode of..oh, I don't know...Babylon 5, Star Trek or what have you.



That said, maybe I missed it, but when did they advertise DA has a dark fantasy? None of the trailers I've seen struck me as particularly dark. Or maybe I'm just jaded and desensitized to it all, that could be a possibility too....

[lizardglenn]

I would call DA:O an RPG that is mostly just shades of grey  with a few darkish bits here & there

TheDrunkenPanda wrote...


That said, maybe I missed it, but when did they advertise DA has a dark fantasy? .

try looking here http://dragonage.bioware.com/

[TheDrunkenPanda]

Huh. You know, in all this time, I've never gone directly to the DA website. Well, like I said, maybe it's because I'm jaded and desensitized, but DA doesn't seem particularly dark to me, not after, y'know, galaxy ending race of robots, alien fleets wanting to destroy humanity, more alien fleets wanting not only humanity, but cyber-humanity and technology-religion-humanity, soul-consuming swords, Soviet invasions, alien invasions, orc invasions, undead apocalypse, generic Earth-ending apocalypse, Earth-consuming radioactive crystals, murdered Emperors and demonic invasions, manipulative dragons, poisoned loves, soul-sucking Mage and his vampiric sister, and caves collapsing on my head after taking out the Big Bad. Oh, and let's not forget the whole 'trekking through a dungeon to ultimately shove a soul-containing crystal shard into my forehead only to become the next incarnation of a demon to be slain by more heroes. Repeatedly. For loot." thing.



So yeah, I guess I'm jaded and desensitized and DA just doesn't seem dark to me.

[Roxlimn]

Vormaerin:



You'd be wrong there. The decision in Redcliffe is EASY. Either you get the bright shiny rainbow choice, in which case you take that one and it leads to a happy ending, or you take either of the equally okay choices which isn't difficult either - it's not like you have a choice either way. It makes you squeamish, but it's not all that difficult.



At the end of the first book on LOTR, Aragorn is met with a choice: hunt down the Ringbearer and bring him to Mount Doom as best he can, leaving Merry and Pippin to torture and death, or leave the Ringbearer to his fate, possibly dooming all of Middle-Earth as he knew it and try to save two little Hobbits.



He can't possibly do both and it's impossible to see either decision through to its conclusion. That's a tough decision. Just because the reader isn't asked to make it doesn't mean it's not a hard choice to make.



Likewise, Gandalf allowed the Ring and the quest to fall to one little measly Hobbit and he's roundly chastised and ridiculed for it by every ally he knows. He's wise enough to know that however this thing was going to end, it wasn't likely ever going to end well for Frodo - and he still has to persuade Frodo to do it, even though he loves Frodo as a good friend. It's like sending your idiot friend to a painful, torturous death. You know it's the only way and you have to convince him to do it, but you know you're dooming him to a painful end. The fact that Gandalf doesn't, in fact, make this crystal clear from the beginning has to make you think how cruel he can really be.



At least with the Grey Wardens, you can choose to end it gloriously and well, you get special treatment until then, and you get 30 years to live. It's not such a bad deal, in comparison.



I don't see how DAO is any grimmer than LOTR or Arthurian Legend, or Grimm Fairy Tales. Many classic Fairy Tales don't even end all that well, by modern standards. At the end of The Little Mermaid, she dies. Not to save anyone or anything like that - she dies because she utterly failed in her one mission to get the prince to love her - and even that was a Machiavellian move in order to secure immortality through marriage. Through most of it, she suffers severe daily bodily pain which she has to hide. Hardly an uplifting tale.

[ChickenDownUnder]

When I think dark fantasy, I think of ol' Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and even Planescape and Vampire: The Masquerade to a lesser degree when it comes to roleplaying games.

Compared to that, Dragon Age is just normal fantasy.To me, dark fantasy is more about the environment and mood of the game, which besides the broodmother part of the game, Dragon Age lacked greatly. Yes, there is plenty of horrible **** going on, but when the main threat humanity (dark spawn) is treated like an after-though in a bright, sunny appearing world, it aint even close to fitting dark fantasy.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:42 .

[Curlain]

Yeah Planescape had some really potential darkness to The Nameless One's internal character, really enjoyed that game, still a pretty unique cRPG exprience even now

[The Angry One]

Your definition of darkness is clearly "all the characters must act like douchebags".

This may be a valid form of dark fantasy storytelling, but it's not the only one.

[Roxlimn]

Dark Sun is especially useful as a point of contrast. This IS a D&D product from Hasbro, so it's still not all that dark, but it is pretty bleak in comparison.



Unlike in Ferelden, where you get to tour the world after the Dragon is defeated, in Dark Sun, defeating A dragon simply returns you to living in a desert sandbowl where normal people murder each other on a daily basis for water.



Moreover, it's revealed that Dragons aren't, in fact, big, amoral, hopelessly distant forces of destruction. As it turns out Dragons are just extremely powerful people who have found a way to great personal power by sucking the life out of other people - AND you can actually choose to eventually turn into one. In DAO, you never get to choose to embrace the taint and subjugate Ferelden under the rule of the Great One.

[Roxlimn]

The Angry One:



Sure. There's stories founded on ineffable horror, utter despair, or antiheroes who are forced to do truly repugnant actions on a continuous basis in order to support what turns out to be a horrifying world.



DAO is not that kind of tale.

[fro7k]

With a few tweaks this game could have been marketted to kids as well, and increased their sales. Get rid of the blood and the incredibly tame and ridiculous (underpants? bras?) sex scenes and you're well on your way.