This game IS kid-friendly. The sex scenes aren't particularly malicious, nor all that explicit, and whatever horror there is in the story isn't something they're liable to understand anyway. Monsters are clearly labeled as evil, and you get to beat up on them.
Like I said, you put spandex and primary colors on your team and they could be the Power Rangers.
DARK fantasy?!?!?!?
Débuté par
Roxlimn
, déc. 01 2009 01:08
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#177
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 02:31
lizardglenn
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i would agree many books are far darker than this game but it is not a fair comparison as you need to use your imagination much more reading
a chance to stake Alistair to the ground with zombie kittens gnawing at his body
while my sexy witch of the wild & i eat strips of his quivering raw flesh ( love that topless robe mod)
now that would be Dark & gritty also a good way to get rid of an annoying idiot
a little side note about LOTR when i read the paperback version with all 3 books in 1 + a bestiary in a place called Ladakh over 20 years ago i had no way of knowing that as some insist that any of the characters were not dead
but then again had no prior knowlege of the ending & did not skip ahead to see if they survived
nor did the thin air- high altitude + what i happened to be smoking open my 3rd eye to use presience to have things revealed to me before i read them
a chance to stake Alistair to the ground with zombie kittens gnawing at his body
while my sexy witch of the wild & i eat strips of his quivering raw flesh ( love that topless robe mod)
now that would be Dark & gritty also a good way to get rid of an annoying idiot
a little side note about LOTR when i read the paperback version with all 3 books in 1 + a bestiary in a place called Ladakh over 20 years ago i had no way of knowing that as some insist that any of the characters were not dead
but then again had no prior knowlege of the ending & did not skip ahead to see if they survived
nor did the thin air- high altitude + what i happened to be smoking open my 3rd eye to use presience to have things revealed to me before i read them
#178
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 02:43
Roxlimn
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lizardglenn:
That would be gruesome, certainly, and if the game made a point of your character being a habitual cannibal - well that would be different, at least. Don't know whether just piling on gore and disgusting little details are enough to make a material piece "dark."
That would be gruesome, certainly, and if the game made a point of your character being a habitual cannibal - well that would be different, at least. Don't know whether just piling on gore and disgusting little details are enough to make a material piece "dark."
#179
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:01
Valmy
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I have been telling people this for months. The marketing for this game was not very representative of the actual game. I kept comparing it to Planescape Torment which Interplay bizarrely billed as a game where you are an immortal sex god who women find irresistable. Yeah....
It is not any darker than any of Bioware's previous games.
It is not any darker than any of Bioware's previous games.
#180
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:01
hawat333
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Please put more question an exclamation marks in the topic title, along with capital letters or else we won't see that this topic is complete bull**** trying to complain with no valid points.
#181
Guest_Yenaquai_*
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:04
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I don't quite understand how indifference to brutality makes a setting darker.
To me it simply appears horribly written, if your character/or Alistair, as you mentioned, would be able to rape and toss away elven women and then be on his merry way without any consequences. Or if you can stomp on and kick around every less strong being ingame just as you see fit.
This does not make a setting dark, it makes it unbelievable. At least in my opinion.
Let me elaborate...
Let's take a look on the cityelf - origin.
First off, the elves have been living as second class citizen for centuries, still being considered as lesser beings, or only good enough to be used and then tossed away by humans. They are hauled off in alienages, are considerably poor, live in awful conditions and struggle to survive.
(I remember an elven beggar, speaking about how he has been left for dead by his human lord because he wasn't able to work anymore...)
Second, they have lost their immortality, their culture, their religion, their cities. This state of living is a simple imitation of a lifestyle that has been forced upon them, their marriages must be confirmed by a human god, and are held by a priestess of the human church, weapons are forbidden, and they only can work as petty slaves, prostitutes, messengers etc.
Zevran and Leliana both give good insights into the status of elves as well, Zevran being bought as a child into the Antivan Crows, mentioning that they mostly take elves because they appeal to humans. Leliana confirms that when she mentions that servants in Orlais are mostly elven, because they are "pretty to look at". I guess it is not very difficult to put one and one together now, is it? They are being used, solely because their appearance is appealing to humans, they are treated as objects, and I guess rape must be common enough.
Leliana, being a bard, and knowing the upper class in Orlais does not seem to have a problem with the status of the elves, even mentioning how wealthy some elven servants are, and how desired.
As an elf (I haven't played so far with another race) you can make it clear to her that this is NOT the ideal way of living for an elf, on which she thinks about afterwards, realizing that you might be right.
So let's sum it up: Others have already mentioned that the bride is the one in danger of being raped, not only that, but her marriage (if wanted or not) has been interrupted by a human lord's son, who obviously can do whatever he wants, because the elves do not have many rights to start with. His guards not only slaughter one of the bridemaids, but also your groom, and would not hesitate to do the same with you and Soris. You ARE being hauled off to be raped, but are lucky enough that your cousin acted as soon as possible.
Your cousin Shianni is traumatized, you do not exactly know how much the Lord's son and his men have been doing to her, it never really is made clear...
and the climax is that YOU are about to be executed for SELFDEFENSE, after being kidnapped, almost raped, and possibly killed afterwards. After witnessing how his guards killed two unarmed and defenseless elves, simply for trying to defend themselves.
The PC can only escape her fate with being conscripted by Duncan.
And I personally did see a lot of betrayal ingame.
Loghain being the obvious one, but also Ulred, who betrayed the Mage's circle, bringing only death, destruction and possibly annihilation to the mages, traumatizing both the surviving templars and mages, making the communication for "future mages" and templars almost impossible.
Then there's Jowan, of the mage-origin, who not only betrays the woman he loves, but uses your character, his longtime friend to do what he cannot.
Anora betrays you at the landsmeet if you decide to support Alistair, despite her word to help you no matter which path you choose, with the result of you almost being dragged off to be executed.
Howe kills the entire Cousland-family, betraying a longtime friendship and striking when they were most vulnerable.
Branka betrays her whole house in her madness of finding the Anvil of the Void, leaving them in the deep roads to be devoured and transformed by the darkspawn.
And do I even have to mention the horrors of the Anvil of the Void itself?
Zathrian betrays his dalish tribe, with not only the result of them being killed by werewolves, but also the painful transformation into such beasts, and the lie to have regained immortality and thus giving them false hope and deceiving them completely. Not only that, he does that for revenge because his son has been killed by humans, his daughter was raped, impregnated and then killed herself because of it.
Lady Isolde betrayed her family by keeping Connor's magic abilities a secret, taking an apostate and blood-mage in and therefore was responsible for the most horrible episode for her family and Redcliffe itself.
And how many times does your character have the chance to betray?
You can betray Brother Genitivi, by killing him. You can betray the elves in the City Elf-origin by turning a blind eye to Vaughan's crime, you can betray Jowan or the whole mage circle including the templars in the Mage Origin, you can betray Alistair by not only making him king but also by recruiting Loghain into your group.
You can betray the dalish tribe by assisting the werwolves, or Morrigan by not killing Flemeth...
Well, maybe DA:O does not shock with every different choice or scene, maybe it does not force you into the most horrid and disgusting decisions you can make, and therefore doesn't classify as a dark fantasy - game as you describe it, but if you look a bit closer at the different storylines, you might realize that it does have a dark and bitter undertone, that can be felt within the whole game.
Maybe it is the focus on characters and personal fates that needs the insight of the player him/herself to be truly understood and to be seen as bitter and tragic as they are, maybe it is the balance of "good"/"evil" that kind of dims the darkness within the game.
Personally, after I saw the first time the result of choosing to slay Connor in the Redcliffe - Questline I had no doubt that this game was very well written, and does have a very dark tone to it...
But anway... just my opinion.
To me it simply appears horribly written, if your character/or Alistair, as you mentioned, would be able to rape and toss away elven women and then be on his merry way without any consequences. Or if you can stomp on and kick around every less strong being ingame just as you see fit.
This does not make a setting dark, it makes it unbelievable. At least in my opinion.
Let me elaborate...
Let's take a look on the cityelf - origin.
First off, the elves have been living as second class citizen for centuries, still being considered as lesser beings, or only good enough to be used and then tossed away by humans. They are hauled off in alienages, are considerably poor, live in awful conditions and struggle to survive.
(I remember an elven beggar, speaking about how he has been left for dead by his human lord because he wasn't able to work anymore...)
Second, they have lost their immortality, their culture, their religion, their cities. This state of living is a simple imitation of a lifestyle that has been forced upon them, their marriages must be confirmed by a human god, and are held by a priestess of the human church, weapons are forbidden, and they only can work as petty slaves, prostitutes, messengers etc.
Zevran and Leliana both give good insights into the status of elves as well, Zevran being bought as a child into the Antivan Crows, mentioning that they mostly take elves because they appeal to humans. Leliana confirms that when she mentions that servants in Orlais are mostly elven, because they are "pretty to look at". I guess it is not very difficult to put one and one together now, is it? They are being used, solely because their appearance is appealing to humans, they are treated as objects, and I guess rape must be common enough.
Leliana, being a bard, and knowing the upper class in Orlais does not seem to have a problem with the status of the elves, even mentioning how wealthy some elven servants are, and how desired.
As an elf (I haven't played so far with another race) you can make it clear to her that this is NOT the ideal way of living for an elf, on which she thinks about afterwards, realizing that you might be right.
So let's sum it up: Others have already mentioned that the bride is the one in danger of being raped, not only that, but her marriage (if wanted or not) has been interrupted by a human lord's son, who obviously can do whatever he wants, because the elves do not have many rights to start with. His guards not only slaughter one of the bridemaids, but also your groom, and would not hesitate to do the same with you and Soris. You ARE being hauled off to be raped, but are lucky enough that your cousin acted as soon as possible.
Your cousin Shianni is traumatized, you do not exactly know how much the Lord's son and his men have been doing to her, it never really is made clear...
and the climax is that YOU are about to be executed for SELFDEFENSE, after being kidnapped, almost raped, and possibly killed afterwards. After witnessing how his guards killed two unarmed and defenseless elves, simply for trying to defend themselves.
The PC can only escape her fate with being conscripted by Duncan.
And I personally did see a lot of betrayal ingame.
Loghain being the obvious one, but also Ulred, who betrayed the Mage's circle, bringing only death, destruction and possibly annihilation to the mages, traumatizing both the surviving templars and mages, making the communication for "future mages" and templars almost impossible.
Then there's Jowan, of the mage-origin, who not only betrays the woman he loves, but uses your character, his longtime friend to do what he cannot.
Anora betrays you at the landsmeet if you decide to support Alistair, despite her word to help you no matter which path you choose, with the result of you almost being dragged off to be executed.
Howe kills the entire Cousland-family, betraying a longtime friendship and striking when they were most vulnerable.
Branka betrays her whole house in her madness of finding the Anvil of the Void, leaving them in the deep roads to be devoured and transformed by the darkspawn.
And do I even have to mention the horrors of the Anvil of the Void itself?
Zathrian betrays his dalish tribe, with not only the result of them being killed by werewolves, but also the painful transformation into such beasts, and the lie to have regained immortality and thus giving them false hope and deceiving them completely. Not only that, he does that for revenge because his son has been killed by humans, his daughter was raped, impregnated and then killed herself because of it.
Lady Isolde betrayed her family by keeping Connor's magic abilities a secret, taking an apostate and blood-mage in and therefore was responsible for the most horrible episode for her family and Redcliffe itself.
And how many times does your character have the chance to betray?
You can betray Brother Genitivi, by killing him. You can betray the elves in the City Elf-origin by turning a blind eye to Vaughan's crime, you can betray Jowan or the whole mage circle including the templars in the Mage Origin, you can betray Alistair by not only making him king but also by recruiting Loghain into your group.
You can betray the dalish tribe by assisting the werwolves, or Morrigan by not killing Flemeth...
Well, maybe DA:O does not shock with every different choice or scene, maybe it does not force you into the most horrid and disgusting decisions you can make, and therefore doesn't classify as a dark fantasy - game as you describe it, but if you look a bit closer at the different storylines, you might realize that it does have a dark and bitter undertone, that can be felt within the whole game.
Maybe it is the focus on characters and personal fates that needs the insight of the player him/herself to be truly understood and to be seen as bitter and tragic as they are, maybe it is the balance of "good"/"evil" that kind of dims the darkness within the game.
Personally, after I saw the first time the result of choosing to slay Connor in the Redcliffe - Questline I had no doubt that this game was very well written, and does have a very dark tone to it...
But anway... just my opinion.
Modifié par Yenaquai, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:10 .
#182
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:18
Saurel
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Valmy wrote...
I kept comparing it to Planescape Torment which Interplay bizarrely billed as a game where you are an immortal sex god who women find irresistable. Yeah....
Wtf was up with that? Seriously the box art kept me off the game when I was a teenager.
#183
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:23
Roxlimn
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hawat333:
Saying I have no valid point doesn't do anything - you actually have to, you know, present reasoning and examples. And it's not like I'm complaining. I LIKE it that the game isn't stupid emo crap. It's just a little weird how the marketing hyped this game up as some forbidden super "mature" stuff for the benefit of the titillated tweeners.
Yenaquai:
All of which is perfectly inconsistent. If elven rape is common, why is that elves resist it with violence? If elves submit normally, why did the lord's son bother to take guards, and why did they resort to using weapons when he could always take whichever OTHER elf suited his fancy, no problem?
You know what happens when rape is common? NO ONE resists and it's considered normal. What happens to fresh powerless cute inmates when they go to maximum security? You can bet your ass (or theirs, actually) that no one is going to be outraged and whoever takes advantage wouldn't be portrayed as some monster - it's just how things are.
If rape is common, Shianni wouldn't be traumatized because she would have been subjected to it for years - possibly since childhood. Clearly, it's abnormal.
This is not particularly dark to me.
Much worse things happen for real, everyday, just outside your home. Worse things happen in standard fantasy fare not considered "dark."
Shrug. 'sall run of the mill to me. Wouldn't surprise Denethor, certainly. Betrayal and politics are NORMAL things in the world and in fantasy. None of these betrayals are particularly unexpected or heinous.
Well, it's darker than GI Joe and Rainbow Brite, certainly. If that constitutes your normal fare, then I suppose you might consider DAO having a dark and bitter undertone. Betrayal is not new to fantasy. Neither is rape, underclasses, genocide, or any of a number of other things. DAO is not unusual in this regard.
Heck, original versions of Hansel and Gretel and some versions of Cinderella are pretty horrific. That's normal fantasy.
Saying I have no valid point doesn't do anything - you actually have to, you know, present reasoning and examples. And it's not like I'm complaining. I LIKE it that the game isn't stupid emo crap. It's just a little weird how the marketing hyped this game up as some forbidden super "mature" stuff for the benefit of the titillated tweeners.
Yenaquai:
So let's sum it up: Others have already mentioned that the bride is the one in danger of being raped, not only that, but her marriage (if wanted or not) has been interrupted by a human lord's son, who obviously can do whatever he wants, because the elves do not have many rights to start with. His guards not only slaughter one of the bridemaids, but also your groom, and would not hesitate to do the same with you and Soris. You ARE being hauled off to be raped, but are lucky enough that your cousin acted as soon as possible.
Your cousin Shianni is traumatized, you do not exactly know how much the Lord's son and his men have been doing to her, it never really is made clear...
and the climax is that YOU are about to be executed for SELFDEFENSE, after being kidnapped, almost raped, and possibly killed afterwards. After witnessing how his guards killed two unarmed and defenseless elves, simply for trying to defend themselves.
The PC can only escape her fate with being conscripted by Duncan.
All of which is perfectly inconsistent. If elven rape is common, why is that elves resist it with violence? If elves submit normally, why did the lord's son bother to take guards, and why did they resort to using weapons when he could always take whichever OTHER elf suited his fancy, no problem?
You know what happens when rape is common? NO ONE resists and it's considered normal. What happens to fresh powerless cute inmates when they go to maximum security? You can bet your ass (or theirs, actually) that no one is going to be outraged and whoever takes advantage wouldn't be portrayed as some monster - it's just how things are.
If rape is common, Shianni wouldn't be traumatized because she would have been subjected to it for years - possibly since childhood. Clearly, it's abnormal.
This is not particularly dark to me.
Much worse things happen for real, everyday, just outside your home. Worse things happen in standard fantasy fare not considered "dark."
And how many times does your character have the chance to betray?
You can betray Brother Genitivi, by killing him. You can betray the elves in the City Elf-origin by turning a blind eye to Vaughan's crime, you can betray Jowan or the whole mage circle including the templars in the Mage Origin, you can betray Alistair by not only making him king but also by recruiting Loghain into your group.
You can betray the dalish tribe by assisting the werwolves, or Morrigan by not killing Flemeth...
Shrug. 'sall run of the mill to me. Wouldn't surprise Denethor, certainly. Betrayal and politics are NORMAL things in the world and in fantasy. None of these betrayals are particularly unexpected or heinous.
Well, maybe DA:O does not shock with every different choice or scene, maybe it does not force you into the most horrid and disgusting decisions you can make, and therefore doesn't classify as a dark fantasy - game as you describe it, but if you look a bit closer at the different storylines, you might realize that it does have a dark and bitter undertone, that can be felt within the whole game.
Well, it's darker than GI Joe and Rainbow Brite, certainly. If that constitutes your normal fare, then I suppose you might consider DAO having a dark and bitter undertone. Betrayal is not new to fantasy. Neither is rape, underclasses, genocide, or any of a number of other things. DAO is not unusual in this regard.
Heck, original versions of Hansel and Gretel and some versions of Cinderella are pretty horrific. That's normal fantasy.
#184
Guest_Yenaquai_*
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 03:50
Guest_Yenaquai_*
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Roxlimn: You missed ONE certain point of my post, which is understable, for how long it is.
"I do not see how indifference about brutality makes a setting darker"
In fact for me it even weakens the darkness of a setting, because - if not viewed impartial and seen through the eyes of a person who lives in this setting - it is common and not considered dark and evil, just as you state it. So why bother showing it to the player? If it is as common as a mother hanging clothes outside to dry, why would the player be pointed to it?
And I do not think that simply because brutality is common means that it's victims simply submit to it, without question. Even if rape would be common, it still is a horrid act of domination of another person, a violation in it's most horrible form, a humilation of another being. And to say that another human being would simply accept that would mean this being was depraved of emotion, self-awareness, self-dignity and sense. And to say that this person would not be horrified by it only because it is common is even a worse thing to claim.
And even if certain things are common in fantasy, it doesn't make those acts any less horrible or wrong. It is only our impartial view of it that let's it appear this way, our indifference.
It's just like reading the news. - We just blend out that five people have been murdered by a maniac who has not been found yet, or that mexican orange-farmers practically enslave their employees, or that trading of human beings is still a very common thing in Europe. You just blend it out, but it doesn't justifiy the cruelity of the fates of the humans who were involved, nor does it dim the horror of the acts, does it?
In my opinion, Bioware creates a darker setting by showing us those things again, by involving us in the process, by being part of it. Think of it as you want, that's just my opinion.
"I do not see how indifference about brutality makes a setting darker"
In fact for me it even weakens the darkness of a setting, because - if not viewed impartial and seen through the eyes of a person who lives in this setting - it is common and not considered dark and evil, just as you state it. So why bother showing it to the player? If it is as common as a mother hanging clothes outside to dry, why would the player be pointed to it?
And I do not think that simply because brutality is common means that it's victims simply submit to it, without question. Even if rape would be common, it still is a horrid act of domination of another person, a violation in it's most horrible form, a humilation of another being. And to say that another human being would simply accept that would mean this being was depraved of emotion, self-awareness, self-dignity and sense. And to say that this person would not be horrified by it only because it is common is even a worse thing to claim.
And even if certain things are common in fantasy, it doesn't make those acts any less horrible or wrong. It is only our impartial view of it that let's it appear this way, our indifference.
It's just like reading the news. - We just blend out that five people have been murdered by a maniac who has not been found yet, or that mexican orange-farmers practically enslave their employees, or that trading of human beings is still a very common thing in Europe. You just blend it out, but it doesn't justifiy the cruelity of the fates of the humans who were involved, nor does it dim the horror of the acts, does it?
In my opinion, Bioware creates a darker setting by showing us those things again, by involving us in the process, by being part of it. Think of it as you want, that's just my opinion.
#185
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 04:11
Roxlimn
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Yenaquai:
Clearly, you don't have much experience outside the sheltered boundaries of your industrialized suburb (or wherever it is you live).
In certain parts of the world, still, rape and brutality are common, and yes, people do submit to them without comment or fanfare - that is just the way of the world. In fact, in certain parts of the world, parents knowingly pimp their underaged children to tourists for sex money and everyone knows it - the local police even levy protection charges so the parents avoid arrest.
That is how people behave around something that is considered commonplace. If rape and sexual exploitation really was common in the Alienage, your prospective Elven husband should NOT have been eager to defend you with violence, because he would know that it would ultimately be counterproductive and pointless. Instead, he would pimp you - ask the noble for a good offer, and the bride would then accept whichever deal was struck, because rape and sexual exploitation is NORMAL.
How is it darker when your companion is basically goody-two-shoes Alistair and the most evil member in your party is essentially just an amoral hired mercenary?
Bioware sets the moral standard high and then points to all these things as evil and abnormal through the portayal in the game. Your character is fairly influential and moneyed. You also have a crapload of stuff and armor and all kinds of maintenance chores. Shouldn't you have a bunch of Elven servants at camp? Wouldn't people like Leliana and Zevran feel free to, um, "make use" of their "services?"
Clearly, you don't have much experience outside the sheltered boundaries of your industrialized suburb (or wherever it is you live).
In certain parts of the world, still, rape and brutality are common, and yes, people do submit to them without comment or fanfare - that is just the way of the world. In fact, in certain parts of the world, parents knowingly pimp their underaged children to tourists for sex money and everyone knows it - the local police even levy protection charges so the parents avoid arrest.
That is how people behave around something that is considered commonplace. If rape and sexual exploitation really was common in the Alienage, your prospective Elven husband should NOT have been eager to defend you with violence, because he would know that it would ultimately be counterproductive and pointless. Instead, he would pimp you - ask the noble for a good offer, and the bride would then accept whichever deal was struck, because rape and sexual exploitation is NORMAL.
And even if certain things are common in fantasy, it doesn't make those acts any less horrible or wrong. It is only our impartial view of it that let's it appear this way, our indifference.
It's just like reading the news. - We just blend out that five people have been murdered by a maniac who has not been found yet, or that mexican orange-farmers practically enslave their employees, or that trading of human beings is still a very common thing in Europe. You just blend it out, but it doesn't justifiy the cruelity of the fates of the humans who were involved, nor does it dim the horror of the acts, does it?
In my opinion, Bioware creates a darker setting by showing us those things again, by involving us in the process, by being part of it. Think of it as you want, that's just my opinion.
How is it darker when your companion is basically goody-two-shoes Alistair and the most evil member in your party is essentially just an amoral hired mercenary?
Bioware sets the moral standard high and then points to all these things as evil and abnormal through the portayal in the game. Your character is fairly influential and moneyed. You also have a crapload of stuff and armor and all kinds of maintenance chores. Shouldn't you have a bunch of Elven servants at camp? Wouldn't people like Leliana and Zevran feel free to, um, "make use" of their "services?"
#186
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 04:14
Bibdy
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Roxlimn wrote...
Bibdy:
Well, to be fair, neither option A nor option B in Redcliffe were all that bad. In one case, another mother dies to save her kid. Happens all the time, probably happened several times in Redcliffe over the days it was attacked by undead. Noble and tragic, but hardly all that bad.
In the case, a child has to die because of unfortunate unforeseeable circumstances that are beyond your control. That's like blaming yourself for every kid that comes down with leukemia. You couldn't stop it, it has to be done, best be done with it quickly. Just because some woman waxes hysterical doesn't make it all that bad in the context of the absolute massacre the village has already been through. Tragic, but again, not all that bad. Could have been worse.
Seriously, why are THESE two lives super-important and tragic, but losing Kaitlyn's little kid brother is a little sidequest you can totally ignore?
After all is said and done, people are dead, but you saved the town from complete destruction. I call that a happy ending - and yes, that is why people buy into games like this. A really dark game would only primarily appeal to goths.
To be fair? Happens all the time? What ****ed up neighbourhood do you live in? Just because something has happened, doesn't mean it happens 'all the time'. Good lord. You've got some really skewed view on reality.
Just because something has to be done as a necessity, or that its 'just the way things are' doesn't make it any less tragic...how many times do we have to say it before it sinks in? If a loved one or family member dies in a car crash in real life, do you just shrug that off as 'oh well, happens all the time'? No mourning at all? Its statistically sound data! People die in car crashes! So, I'm okay with that!!
How do you even enjoy a story about a really dark fantasy world when it talks about rape or murder if you accept such things as normal in the first place? The problem here is your perception of what is dark or not. You expected much more from something claiming itself to be dark and were disappointed, because depravity and death are defined as common themes in your 'world'. Is every murder just 'necessary' by your definition? How is any kind of murder dark to you? Well A murdered B out of revenge, he had it coming. Well A murdered B for cash, well he was desperate and poor, so he needed the money. It was necessary. How on earth do you just shrug things off so easily? You're pretty ****ed up, truth be told.
Those lives are kinda super-important because you err...need the help of Arl Eamon? You could ignore the whole situation if you want, but then you aren't going to get to Eamon, or his assistance against the Blight, so the story isn't going to develop. What exactly do you want? A "**** you" option, where you just let Teagan make the tough decision, while you go galavanting off to get the Urn of Sacred Ashes to heal him? That's not even a dark situation, that's just you being a dick or ****ing out.
Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:23 .
#187
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 04:16
lizardglenn
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Yes well that was rather gruesome but they dont have to show it & was also hatred of an insipid stupid NPC that a quick death would be too good for combined with a jaded old gamers warped humor & the fact that it is late after 3 am here now
i stand by what i said before Grey is how i find the game it may have a few dark-ish parts but overall nothing that dark or that new for an RPG some seem to find the origin specific/sporadic bits of darker grey enough to call it a dark game i think that a lot of the long used spin about Dark & Gritty was tempered during developement & the need to make it suit a wider group led to them pulling many punches but overall the best RPG since fallout -BG- planescape days
it is afterall just a (MA15+ strong violence) game
i stand by what i said before Grey is how i find the game it may have a few dark-ish parts but overall nothing that dark or that new for an RPG some seem to find the origin specific/sporadic bits of darker grey enough to call it a dark game i think that a lot of the long used spin about Dark & Gritty was tempered during developement & the need to make it suit a wider group led to them pulling many punches but overall the best RPG since fallout -BG- planescape days
it is afterall just a (MA15+ strong violence) game
#188
Guest_Yenaquai_*
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 04:24
Guest_Yenaquai_*
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Roxlimn wrote...
Yenaquai:
Clearly, you don't have much experience outside the sheltered boundaries of your industrialized suburb (or wherever it is you live).
In certain parts of the world, still, rape and brutality are common, and yes, people do submit to them without comment or fanfare - that is just the way of the world. In fact, in certain parts of the world, parents knowingly pimp their underaged children to tourists for sex money and everyone knows it - the local police even levy protection charges so the parents avoid arrest.
That is how people behave around something that is considered commonplace. If rape and sexual exploitation really was common in the Alienage, your prospective Elven husband should NOT have been eager to defend you with violence, because he would know that it would ultimately be counterproductive and pointless. Instead, he would pimp you - ask the noble for a good offer, and the bride would then accept whichever deal was struck, because rape and sexual exploitation is NORMAL.
Again, you only speak of the ones DOING this, not of the ones being the victims.
And again I point you to the fact that it would require a complete strip of emotions and self-dignity to simply submit to this cruelity and feel nothing, as a victim.
But anyway. - I withdraw from this discussion.
#189
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 04:30
Curlain
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A point worth noting first, even in situations in which rape may have been more common towards certain people in the past (due to being seen as lessers) this did not translated often into said people being accepting of it in terms of offereing no resistance or being somehow robots about it. It could and often did (and other abuses if taken to extremes) lead to a violent backlash. Just as in slavery being seen as more acceptable in various periods of history did not translate that often into those people who were slaves not trying to break free, escape, rebell etc. History is littered with slave revolts from Spartacus onwards to more recent periods in the Americas etc, or the Peasant's Revolt in 1300's England, people don't always accept a situation if it becomes to extreme, nor are they ok with it, even if it has become a cultural norm. It's why things change through history you see
Modifié par Curlain, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:32 .
#190
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 04:38
GarouM
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Rape, sexual exploitation, slavery.. Those are things that can never be normal. Even if you picture a setting where such acts are common, they are still atrocities on the victims.
Considering the scene in the alienage - yes, most of the elves wouldn't have said a thing, looked away and tried to save their own hides, but not because it is normal but because of the enourmous inbalance of power between elves and nobles.
The player charakter is special in this regard, and he must be, because he is the HERO of a heroic fantasy setting. He has to be, driven either by the desire for justice and/or revenge, or he wouldn't be the kind of person to become the hero of such a tale.
I agree that Dragon Age could have been darker and filled with more ambigious decisions, but there are some aspects that go into the (for me) right direction, like the choice of kings in Orzammar, or, in some cases, the ending.
Considering the scene in the alienage - yes, most of the elves wouldn't have said a thing, looked away and tried to save their own hides, but not because it is normal but because of the enourmous inbalance of power between elves and nobles.
The player charakter is special in this regard, and he must be, because he is the HERO of a heroic fantasy setting. He has to be, driven either by the desire for justice and/or revenge, or he wouldn't be the kind of person to become the hero of such a tale.
I agree that Dragon Age could have been darker and filled with more ambigious decisions, but there are some aspects that go into the (for me) right direction, like the choice of kings in Orzammar, or, in some cases, the ending.
#191
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 04:47
Roxlimn
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Bibdy:
I live in Asia, if you must know, but it could be anywhere. I understand that organized crime now brings kidnapped Russian and Central Asian youths everywhere for white slavery for a reasonable cost. African slaves have reasonable costing, too.
Yes, that's for real. That's TODAY.
If I wanted to, I could go to a local red light district and see pimping of little children happening on a daily basis, so yes, it does happen all the time - just not everywhere.
American GIs are known to frequent and patronize ****houses in Olongapo that practice white slavery. This is no secret. How is my view skewed when I know all these things are happening and can visit and see proof of it without embellishment or exaggeration from a first-hand perspective?
If anything, your view is skewed because you choose not to think about all these horrible things that occur everyday.
I didn't say these things were not tragic or that they were not horrible. I simply said that they were relatively commonplace. My family members will all eventually die. Yours, too. It's tragic, but it's also commonplace. Death is a normal part of life.
You're totally mistaken. I'm NOT disappointed that it's not dark. I'm glad it's not. But the marketing is totally wrong in the characterization. A fantasy world with rape and murder is not especially or really dark. That's NORMAL. Rape and murder happen wholesale in LOTR and other such tales. I understand this these are common occurrences in places like Lankhmar.
Truth be told, I wasn't expecting Dragon Age to be all that "dark," despite the marketing hype, and I was right - it's not. It's just normally "dark," not especially so. The world I live in is the world YOU live in. Depravity and death are commonplace in our world.
I don't shrug them off, but I'm not under some delusion that these things don't happen.
No - I like it just the way it is. As I said, it's not particularly dark, and I like it that way. As previously mentioned, a really dark situation in this case (which I wouldn't like) would be if NOTHING you do saves Isolde, the boy, or the Arl, no matter what you tried. You would be made to watch the horrible demise of a family while being totally powerless to do anything about it. That drives in the themes of hopelessness and despair. You can be given choices as to what kind of pointless thing you want to do while you watch. Or a less dark option would be if you could somehow mitigate the damage somewhat by making a deal with a demon exchanging life for life - the lives of 8 people for the family, and then you would go around looking for people to sacrifice to the demon - that would be pretty dark.
I live in Asia, if you must know, but it could be anywhere. I understand that organized crime now brings kidnapped Russian and Central Asian youths everywhere for white slavery for a reasonable cost. African slaves have reasonable costing, too.
Yes, that's for real. That's TODAY.
If I wanted to, I could go to a local red light district and see pimping of little children happening on a daily basis, so yes, it does happen all the time - just not everywhere.
American GIs are known to frequent and patronize ****houses in Olongapo that practice white slavery. This is no secret. How is my view skewed when I know all these things are happening and can visit and see proof of it without embellishment or exaggeration from a first-hand perspective?
If anything, your view is skewed because you choose not to think about all these horrible things that occur everyday.
Just because something has to be done as a necessity, or that its 'just the way things are' doesn't make it any less tragic...how many times do we have to say it before it sinks in? If a loved one or family member dies in a car crash in real life, do you just shrug that off as 'oh well, happens all the time'? No mourning at all? Its statistically sound data! People die in car crashes! So, I'm okay with that!!
I didn't say these things were not tragic or that they were not horrible. I simply said that they were relatively commonplace. My family members will all eventually die. Yours, too. It's tragic, but it's also commonplace. Death is a normal part of life.
How do you even enjoy a story about a really dark fantasy world when it talks about rape or murder if you accept such things as normal in the first place? The problem here is your perception of what is dark or not. You expected much more from something claiming itself to be dark and were disappointed, because depravity and death are defined as common themes in your 'world'. Is every murder just 'necessary' by your definition? How is any kind of murder dark to you? Well A murdered B out of revenge, he had it coming. Well A murdered B for cash, well he was desperate and poor, so he needed the money. It was necessary. How on earth do you just shrug things off so easily? You're pretty ****ed up, truth be told.
You're totally mistaken. I'm NOT disappointed that it's not dark. I'm glad it's not. But the marketing is totally wrong in the characterization. A fantasy world with rape and murder is not especially or really dark. That's NORMAL. Rape and murder happen wholesale in LOTR and other such tales. I understand this these are common occurrences in places like Lankhmar.
Truth be told, I wasn't expecting Dragon Age to be all that "dark," despite the marketing hype, and I was right - it's not. It's just normally "dark," not especially so. The world I live in is the world YOU live in. Depravity and death are commonplace in our world.
I don't shrug them off, but I'm not under some delusion that these things don't happen.
Those lives are kinda super-important because you err...need the help of Arl Eamon? You could ignore the whole situation if you want, but then you aren't going to get to Eamon, or his assistance against the Blight, so the story isn't going to develop. What exactly do you want? A "**** you" option, where you just let Teagan make the tough decision, while you go galavanting off to get the Urn of Sacred Ashes to heal him? That's not even a dark situation, that's just you being a dick or ****ing out.
No - I like it just the way it is. As I said, it's not particularly dark, and I like it that way. As previously mentioned, a really dark situation in this case (which I wouldn't like) would be if NOTHING you do saves Isolde, the boy, or the Arl, no matter what you tried. You would be made to watch the horrible demise of a family while being totally powerless to do anything about it. That drives in the themes of hopelessness and despair. You can be given choices as to what kind of pointless thing you want to do while you watch. Or a less dark option would be if you could somehow mitigate the damage somewhat by making a deal with a demon exchanging life for life - the lives of 8 people for the family, and then you would go around looking for people to sacrifice to the demon - that would be pretty dark.
#192
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:03
Roxlimn
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Curlain:
You're quite wrong. Study more history. Study harder.
The Untouchables in India have always been an oppressed underclass and they have never fought a rebellion. In fact, for most of the history of serfdom in Europe, the serfs didn't offer any significant resistance, either. They only did so when conditions improved, not when they were worse. Peasants who have hope and who know that they could have it better are dangerous - peasants who are so downtrodden that they don't care are safe.
Look at the modern history of Native Americans in the US. They are treated as lower class citizens in many ways. Where is the revolution?
Native Australians are treated as an underclass, too. Where is the revolution?
African slaves were treated and abused mightily in the US. Where is the revolution?
GarouM:
You have a very romantic view of the world if you think people will not tolerate white slavery happening right outside their very doorstep. It's an atrocity, yes, but it's one that's tacitly tolerated by most nations in the world today.
The fact that the setting is more heroic than horrific is what marks and characterizes Dragon Age.
A point worth noting first, even in situations in which rape may have been more common towards certain people in the past (due to being seen as lessers) this did not translated often into said people being accepting of it in terms of offereing no resistance or being somehow robots about it. It could and often did (and other abuses if taken to extremes) lead to a violent backlash. Just as in slavery being seen as more acceptable in various periods of history did not translate that often into those people who were slaves not trying to break free, escape, rebell etc. History is littered with slave revolts from Spartacus onwards to more recent periods in the Americas etc, or the Peasant's Revolt in 1300's England, people don't always accept a situation if it becomes to extreme, nor are they ok with it, even if it has become a cultural norm. It's why things change through history you see.
You're quite wrong. Study more history. Study harder.
The Untouchables in India have always been an oppressed underclass and they have never fought a rebellion. In fact, for most of the history of serfdom in Europe, the serfs didn't offer any significant resistance, either. They only did so when conditions improved, not when they were worse. Peasants who have hope and who know that they could have it better are dangerous - peasants who are so downtrodden that they don't care are safe.
Look at the modern history of Native Americans in the US. They are treated as lower class citizens in many ways. Where is the revolution?
Native Australians are treated as an underclass, too. Where is the revolution?
African slaves were treated and abused mightily in the US. Where is the revolution?
GarouM:
You have a very romantic view of the world if you think people will not tolerate white slavery happening right outside their very doorstep. It's an atrocity, yes, but it's one that's tacitly tolerated by most nations in the world today.
The player charakter is special in this regard, and he must be, because he is the HERO of a heroic fantasy setting. He has to be, driven either by the desire for justice and/or revenge, or he wouldn't be the kind of person to become the hero of such a tale.
The fact that the setting is more heroic than horrific is what marks and characterizes Dragon Age.
#193
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:18
Bibdy
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No - I like it just the way it is. As I said, it's not particularly dark, and I like it that way. As previously mentioned, a really dark situation in this case (which I wouldn't like) would be if NOTHING you do saves Isolde, the boy, or the Arl, no matter what you tried. You would be made to watch the horrible demise of a family while being totally powerless to do anything about it. That drives in the themes of hopelessness and despair. You can be given choices as to what kind of pointless thing you want to do while you watch. Or a less dark option would be if you could somehow mitigate the damage somewhat by making a deal with a demon exchanging life for life - the lives of 8 people for the family, and then you would go around looking for people to sacrifice to the demon - that would be pretty dark.
Yeah, it would be REALLY dark. They're obviously not going for REALLY dark. They're going for dark...i.e. darker than pretty much anything that came before it. Darker than you would generally anticipate for a medieval fantasy RPG video game. For all intents and purposes its dark. Its a damn sight darker than most games on the market. Its all a matter of perspective. Yeah, compared to some novels, even real life its not especially dark, but compared to the competition, its a tower of darkness in a sea of fluffy rainbows and sunshine. Just because 'dark' translates to 'superomgmegadepravedrapemurderchildmolestationandmoremurderandrape' in your mind doesn't mean that's what the market thinks. Its not false advertising, its you nitpicking something trivial, which is only a matter of opinion anyway.
And again, even if you want dark situations, you still have to give the player some control in what happens, otherwise what's the damn point? Its an RPG, you're supposed to have a purpose and feel like you're changing the world. Save ultimate 'no-win' situations for more rail-road type games where the entire story revolves around those moments e.g. some first person shooter where some important character might die and there's nothing you can do about it. Its just part of the story and the characters decide to go on their next escapade of shooting out of vengeance for that dude, but no matter what, the story is going in that direction. RPGs are defined by the player's ability to affect the world and the outcome of the situations you're put in, whether for good or evil. DA:O puts you in several situations where you're given several options, none of them super happy. My only real disappointment in the game was being given a happy ending to the Redcilffe situation.
Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:20 .
#194
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:34
Bibdy
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As proof of my point in the relative nature of RPGs on the market, look at how many M-rated RPG games there are on the market. Perhaps 3? Fallout 3, Witcher and I think Oblivion. Compare that to the number of non-M rated RPG games.
Now if someone picks up DA:O with an M-rating and its labelled as 'generic fantasy', that doesn't really fit well with the rating its been given. It would be more of a misnomer than calling something that isn't as 'ridiculously dark' as your suggestions, a dark fantasy.
Now if someone picks up DA:O with an M-rating and its labelled as 'generic fantasy', that doesn't really fit well with the rating its been given. It would be more of a misnomer than calling something that isn't as 'ridiculously dark' as your suggestions, a dark fantasy.
Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:35 .
#195
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:35
Curlain
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Serfs in Europe did rebel and often, truth be told, those who were peasants actually had a better life in the early medieval period as oppossed to later, in early medieval England they tended to often hold their own land and had definite rights. Lords and kings were not all powerful in those days despite how it is protrayed, they could expect certain services from the people they had authority over but they were expected to provide services such as protection and maintainence of justice back. Things didn't go well with a lord or king who did not really respect the property rights of his people, in Britain it was only post 1066 in the Norman conquest that things changed for the worst, when England became an occupied nation. And yes there were rebellions against that, they were called the Northern Raisings, because yes they were cut down and ruthelessly crushed, but people didn't just stand by and accept it. And fruther history there was the King learning just how much he didn't have ulimited rights, as every time he forgot he ruled with the consent of his nobles (I'll accept that it applies more to the higher class here, but in gaining support to oppose the king they needed to appeal to those below them) he got removed or forced to accept the new resistrictions on power, hence Magna Carta being signed, and continually reaffirmed,
So no, it doesn't always arrise with conditions improving but happens with condintion getting worse, such as the Norman Conquest. In terms of the African slaves, they tried to escape numerous times, and they rebelled often throughout the Americas, the fact they often didn't successed did not mean they accepted the situation, slave revolts were common the South Americas. And despite what ever racism exists in the South, strangly there is no slavery there now, so something must have happened right, or mabye it's just me.
As for the native Americans, well I don't know who Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and co where fighting those frontier wars, cause those couldn't have been native Americans fighting and revolting from reservations in response to harsh treatment by American soldiers. Must have been someone else right?
Don't assume I don't study history, you don't know what I've read, I never said the revolts were successful, and that there wern't places where such conditions existed longterm. However people are often not robots in reaction to it, similar to the elves in DA:O, they do revolt but generally are
purged' as a result. Seems similar and realistic to events in history, such as Sparatcus (who also was ultimately crushed)
So no, it doesn't always arrise with conditions improving but happens with condintion getting worse, such as the Norman Conquest. In terms of the African slaves, they tried to escape numerous times, and they rebelled often throughout the Americas, the fact they often didn't successed did not mean they accepted the situation, slave revolts were common the South Americas. And despite what ever racism exists in the South, strangly there is no slavery there now, so something must have happened right, or mabye it's just me.
As for the native Americans, well I don't know who Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and co where fighting those frontier wars, cause those couldn't have been native Americans fighting and revolting from reservations in response to harsh treatment by American soldiers. Must have been someone else right?
Don't assume I don't study history, you don't know what I've read, I never said the revolts were successful, and that there wern't places where such conditions existed longterm. However people are often not robots in reaction to it, similar to the elves in DA:O, they do revolt but generally are
purged' as a result. Seems similar and realistic to events in history, such as Sparatcus (who also was ultimately crushed)
Modifié par Curlain, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:43 .
#196
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:38
gotthammer
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The game could have used more Cthulhu, or some Nyarlathotep...steps in the right direction for 'dark', methinks. 
There are some nice points here in the discussion, tho'. Particularly on how 'dark' can also be subjective/relative.
I also live in Asia (in a '3rd world country'...are we a failed state yet? no? how long before we are?), so my definition of 'dark' may be different from others.
Heck, check out the recent massacre in one of our southern provinces (http://en.wikipedia....ndanao_massacre) that killed almost 60 people (around half, journalists), plus the daily news items about minors getting 'abused' by their parents/relatives, the constant feeling of hopelessness in the local political situation...all that and you get pretty, well, numb.
Still, ultimately, it's a game. Fantasy. I personally wish it could have been a bit darker (closer to some of the feel of some parts the Witcher or maybe Warhammer Fantasy, and by that I don't mean crappy MMO), maybe if even just visually... Otherwise, I'm fine with it. IMHO, it's one of the best games I've played in a while, as far as the Fantasy genre is concerned.
There are some nice points here in the discussion, tho'. Particularly on how 'dark' can also be subjective/relative.
I also live in Asia (in a '3rd world country'...are we a failed state yet? no? how long before we are?), so my definition of 'dark' may be different from others.
Heck, check out the recent massacre in one of our southern provinces (http://en.wikipedia....ndanao_massacre) that killed almost 60 people (around half, journalists), plus the daily news items about minors getting 'abused' by their parents/relatives, the constant feeling of hopelessness in the local political situation...all that and you get pretty, well, numb.
Still, ultimately, it's a game. Fantasy. I personally wish it could have been a bit darker (closer to some of the feel of some parts the Witcher or maybe Warhammer Fantasy, and by that I don't mean crappy MMO), maybe if even just visually... Otherwise, I'm fine with it. IMHO, it's one of the best games I've played in a while, as far as the Fantasy genre is concerned.
Modifié par gotthammer, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:46 .
#197
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:42
Foxd1e
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Bibdy wrote...
Sorry if you were expecting hardcore tentacle rape of under 16 year olds, living people getting sawn in half and naked genitals every 3 inches.
ROFLMAO! Oh god that was funny...*ahem* carry on
#198
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:44
Roxlimn
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Bibdy:
Most American RPGs are scrubbed squeaky-clean Rainbow Brite games. As I mentioned, yes, compared to GI Joe, Dragon Age is a little bit darker. It's not much of a comparison. For instance, there is actually a Japanese game where you play a protagonist where your objective is to rape targets. Yes, it's a horrible game, and I don't mean that in the design or production value sense.
Western RPGs tend to be rather light-hearted as a rule, and DAO is only very slightly less so. It's only as dark as normal fantasy fare, not even as dark as real life. "Dark" can be characterized by horror - stuff like Bram Stoker's Dracula which deals in themes of control, helplessness, addiction, and depravity. DAO is not that dark. It is not horrific. It is does not contain themes of helplessness, despair, or unrelenting bleakness.
As I said, I don't WANT it to actually be a dark fantasy game - and I'm right glad that it isn't. It's not trivial - I'm simply observing that this is some kind of marketing ploy to paint it as some kind of forbidden "mature" thing for the sheltered suburban tweenie crowd, and judging by your reactions, it seems to be doing that quite well.
DAO puts you in no situation where nothing you do results in an acceptable outcome. Even without the Circle option, in Redcliffe, whatever you choose, you save someone. How is this not happy? Before you came in, the situation was abjectly hopeless and it was likely that everybody was eventually going to die. Thanks to you, only one person has to die. That's GOOD. I can only surmise that tweenies view this as "dark" because they're not familiar with the concept that EVERYBODY dies and being faced with the reality of death, even in a game, horrifies them.
In Orzammar, the dwarves are squabbling and likely the streets were going to run red with blood in a bloody civil war. Thanks to you, organized crime is suppressed, a new king is on the throne, and the dwarves get to live in whatever peace they can carve out of their little niche. That's happy. How is that not happy?
In the BF, you can side with Zathrian and eradicate a force that, after all, was intent on wholesale slaughter. Again, how is this not happy? You can even make it super-duper kumbayah happy, with everyone going away alive and happy and the only people dying being prepared for it and long past due, anyway. Cue Power Rangers theme.
I don't WANT it to be dark. Please, please, please understand that. I'm not some underaged bright-eyed kid looking for gore and whatnot or what passes for titillating these days. I'm glad that Dragon Age isn't and I'm talking about (in a rather jaded manner) how they're billing it as such for purely marketing reasons.
Most American RPGs are scrubbed squeaky-clean Rainbow Brite games. As I mentioned, yes, compared to GI Joe, Dragon Age is a little bit darker. It's not much of a comparison. For instance, there is actually a Japanese game where you play a protagonist where your objective is to rape targets. Yes, it's a horrible game, and I don't mean that in the design or production value sense.
Western RPGs tend to be rather light-hearted as a rule, and DAO is only very slightly less so. It's only as dark as normal fantasy fare, not even as dark as real life. "Dark" can be characterized by horror - stuff like Bram Stoker's Dracula which deals in themes of control, helplessness, addiction, and depravity. DAO is not that dark. It is not horrific. It is does not contain themes of helplessness, despair, or unrelenting bleakness.
As I said, I don't WANT it to actually be a dark fantasy game - and I'm right glad that it isn't. It's not trivial - I'm simply observing that this is some kind of marketing ploy to paint it as some kind of forbidden "mature" thing for the sheltered suburban tweenie crowd, and judging by your reactions, it seems to be doing that quite well.
DAO puts you in no situation where nothing you do results in an acceptable outcome. Even without the Circle option, in Redcliffe, whatever you choose, you save someone. How is this not happy? Before you came in, the situation was abjectly hopeless and it was likely that everybody was eventually going to die. Thanks to you, only one person has to die. That's GOOD. I can only surmise that tweenies view this as "dark" because they're not familiar with the concept that EVERYBODY dies and being faced with the reality of death, even in a game, horrifies them.
In Orzammar, the dwarves are squabbling and likely the streets were going to run red with blood in a bloody civil war. Thanks to you, organized crime is suppressed, a new king is on the throne, and the dwarves get to live in whatever peace they can carve out of their little niche. That's happy. How is that not happy?
In the BF, you can side with Zathrian and eradicate a force that, after all, was intent on wholesale slaughter. Again, how is this not happy? You can even make it super-duper kumbayah happy, with everyone going away alive and happy and the only people dying being prepared for it and long past due, anyway. Cue Power Rangers theme.
I don't WANT it to be dark. Please, please, please understand that. I'm not some underaged bright-eyed kid looking for gore and whatnot or what passes for titillating these days. I'm glad that Dragon Age isn't and I'm talking about (in a rather jaded manner) how they're billing it as such for purely marketing reasons.
#199
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:50
Bibdy
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So once again, you just come right out and say that you simply don't have the same opinion of 'dark' that the market does.
Here's what Bioware has to say
I would say that's largely true, at least compared to the competition. It doesn't matter what's released in Japan...this is a western game released by a western company aimed at the western market...doy! Of course its going to compare itself against other releases in the same region, and compared to the vast majority of them, its pretty gritty and dark. There's a lot of gore, the player is put in several tough decisions, you can STAB A FRICKING KID for crying out loud. How is that NOT gritty? Just because its 'necessary' in the situation of the game, its still a western game released with an element where you can stab a godamned child to death.
Dark in Japan might mean something entirely different, but that doesn't have any bearing on what DA:O is going to call itself.
You're constantly looking at ONE potential end result. A POTENTIAL one. You don't HAVE to save Redcliffe. You can leave them all to die at the hands of the undead and clean up later. You don't HAVE to put a noble king dude on the throne, you can side with the power-hungry prince assjacket on the throne. You don't HAVE to help the werewolves and cure the curse, you can side with the vengeance-ridden bastard who caused all the problems in the first place.
The end result of your passing doesn't always result in sunshine and bunnies. And in some cases, the end result isn't entirely what you wanted. You help the priest in Orzammar build a church and at the end, the little epilogue about him tells you it went bad (I think it said there was a riot, the guy was killed and the church torn down? Something like that).
Here's what Bioware has to say
1.02
It has been mentioned that Dragon Age is set in a dark, heroic, fantasy world. What does that mean? (Back to top)
It means that Dragon Age: Origins is a very gritty, often bloody adventure with mature themes. It has elements of traditional fantasy like heroes, villains, and magic, but we're not pulling any punches - you're going to be immersed in a brutal, dangerous, and sometimes shocking world.
I would say that's largely true, at least compared to the competition. It doesn't matter what's released in Japan...this is a western game released by a western company aimed at the western market...doy! Of course its going to compare itself against other releases in the same region, and compared to the vast majority of them, its pretty gritty and dark. There's a lot of gore, the player is put in several tough decisions, you can STAB A FRICKING KID for crying out loud. How is that NOT gritty? Just because its 'necessary' in the situation of the game, its still a western game released with an element where you can stab a godamned child to death.
Dark in Japan might mean something entirely different, but that doesn't have any bearing on what DA:O is going to call itself.
You're constantly looking at ONE potential end result. A POTENTIAL one. You don't HAVE to save Redcliffe. You can leave them all to die at the hands of the undead and clean up later. You don't HAVE to put a noble king dude on the throne, you can side with the power-hungry prince assjacket on the throne. You don't HAVE to help the werewolves and cure the curse, you can side with the vengeance-ridden bastard who caused all the problems in the first place.
The end result of your passing doesn't always result in sunshine and bunnies. And in some cases, the end result isn't entirely what you wanted. You help the priest in Orzammar build a church and at the end, the little epilogue about him tells you it went bad (I think it said there was a riot, the guy was killed and the church torn down? Something like that).
Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:55 .
#200
Posté 01 décembre 2009 - 05:54
Roxlimn
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Curlain:/[b]
I'm not assuming that you don't know proper history; every post you put up demonstrates it more than adequately. Read up more.
[b]Bibdy:
ESRB ratings don't make a game "dark." An M-rated game could earn that throught explicit consensual sex portrayals. I don't consider normal sex dark whatseover.
I'm not assuming that you don't know proper history; every post you put up demonstrates it more than adequately. Read up more.
[b]Bibdy:
As proof of my point in the relative nature of RPGs on the market, look at how many M-rated RPG games there are on the market. Perhaps 3? Fallout 3, Witcher and I think Oblivion. Compare that to the number of non-M rated RPG games.
Now if someone picks up DA:O with an M-rating and its labelled as 'generic fantasy', that doesn't really fit well with the rating its been given. It would be more of a misnomer than calling something that isn't as 'ridiculously dark' as your suggestions, a dark fantasy.
ESRB ratings don't make a game "dark." An M-rated game could earn that throught explicit consensual sex portrayals. I don't consider normal sex dark whatseover.
