328 réponses à ce sujet

[KalosCast]

From Wikipedia

"Dark fantasy in this context [a focus on fantasy elements] refers to stories that focus on darker themes, sometimes akin to those of horror, but which take place in a setting more like sword and sorcery or high fantasy. In this sense, dark fantasy is usually considered a sub-genre of fantasy."

Cutthroat machiavellian politics, violent and restrictive regulation of magic, Broodmother, betrayal in the name of blind nationalism, horrific curse as punishment for crimes long past, conscious spirits forced into (essentially) eternal slavery as golems, killing of demon-possessed children, mobbed by starving villagers intending to use the bounty on your head as a way to feed their families.



This isn't like the Changeling: The Lost pen and paper, Clive Barker, or HP Lovecraft where it's largely a rational setting where the horror elements are fantastical in nature (especially true with Changeling) this is a high fantasy setting (see: The Hobbit, Elder Scrolls, Neverwinter Nights) with elements similar to traditional horror. The nightmare sections of The Fade as well as the implications of failure are very much traditional horror, the idea of this general looming threat of demonic posession by beings who couldn't care less about the plight of humanity is reminiscent of HP Lovecraft. Werewolves are in and of themselves considered a classical horror monster. The Broodmother... just... the Broodmother...



It's not the darkest setting ever (that goes to 40k, though it's lessened by it not taking itself very seriously), but it's certainly a world that I'd prefer not living in.

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...

ESRB ratings don't make a game "dark."  An M-rated game could earn that throught explicit consensual sex portrayals.  I don't consider normal sex dark whatseover.

You missed the point. If it called itself 'generic fantasy' and it portrays all these things, wouldn't that seem kind of weird? Especially with an ESRB rating of M, with partial nudity, blood, intense violence and sexual content on the sticker. Makes much less sense to me than comparing it to the moral ideals of some of the more depraved nations of the world and saying that its not dark.

Yeah, we can sit here and say that "Lovecraft's work isn't dark because a baby got raped by some douchebag down in texas. Now THAT'S dark." Its darkER, but it doesn't make it any less dark itself.

You're labelling everything black and white. Either its dark or its not. There's varying degrees of dark and quite honestly this discussion has drawn out for far too long. I've got better things to do than try to talk sense to someone this stubborn. Peace.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:02 .

[KalosCast]

An added amendment: The setting is definitely not as dark as advertised to be, but if you base your purchases off of the description on the back of the box and the trailers that clearly were not official gameplay... well.. you deserve your disappointment.

[Laurelinde]

I found the Deep Roads pretty dark, with the creepy voices and the cannibalism and the turning into some kind of mutant darkspawn factory with way too many boobs. Not exactly pre-watershed Disney fare there, IMO. And the end of the story wasn't total, no-quibbles victory or anything, either.

[Roxlimn]

 Bibdy:

So portrayals of blood is what makes DAO "gritty" and "dark?"  It's a little artificial and shallow, if you ask me.  As I said - nothing more than a marketing ploy.  I mean, how is Bioware "not pulling any punches?"  Clearly, they are, since I can imagine much darker and bleaker situations.  Just because they say it doesn't mean it's not true.
There is nothing in DAO that shocks me.  Nothing.  This may not be true for the average American 20-something, but again, that is exactly my point.  Bioware puts these things in there for titillation and shock value.  It's not really all that horrifying - in fact, it's really not.  It's horrifying to sheltered 20-somethings who, for most of their lives, have seen nothing darker than Care Bears.

How is it that stabbing a kid is NOT gritty?  Well, he's just a person just like anyone else, and if he's endangering entire towns just by living... ....well, I really don't see how that's all that "gritty."  You're taking out a threat that happens to look like a little kid.  How he looks doesn't change the fact that he's an inevitable massacre barely and temporarily held in check.  You kill him because he's dead anyway and this way, you spare everyone else.
If Isolde weren't so unreasonable and hysterical, she would have done it herself already.  It is a great failing on her part that she hasn't killed her own son yet, but it's not like that all that unusual, either.

[ReubenLiew]

Actually it's exactly as dark as it was advertised to be.

The argument here is that the OP feels that the 'Dark' in the marketing is not deserved, as it is clearly not all as dark as other dark-themed fantasy or even real life. Which is fair. But compared to other fantasy titles in current production or release, it's a shade darker than normal, and so yes technically this classifies as a 'dark' setting because otherwise they might get into problems with parents who think it's Mario or something.

Plus it's marketting. Marketting told us Warhammer Online was to be the best thing since sliced bread. The bleeding liars.

[gotthammer]

KalosCast wrote...
It's not the darkest setting ever (that goes to 40k, though it's lessened by it not taking itself very seriously), but it's certainly a world that I'd prefer not living in.

Off-Topic: Hmm. I always thought that WH Fantasy was darker than 40k, thematically, anyway (and that 40k just seems so due to the scale it projects <e.g., a million worlds, and thousands of psyker souls fed to the Emperor daily or something like that>? I also forget, as my buddies had a discussion about the two settings before, about which of them had 'hope' and which didn't...I think it was Fantasy that was lacking hope? I forget)

Yeah. I'm not sure that, given the chance, I'd want to live in a place like Ferelden (unless...say, I had the means to take/produce firearms and the means to produce ammo...and TOOTHPASTE!  )

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

 Bibdy:

So portrayals of blood is what makes DAO "gritty" and "dark?"  It's a little artificial and shallow, if you ask me.  As I said - nothing more than a marketing ploy.  I mean, how is Bioware "not pulling any punches?"  Clearly, they are, since I can imagine much darker and bleaker situations.  Just because they say it doesn't mean it's not true.
There is nothing in DAO that shocks me.  Nothing.  This may not be true for the average American 20-something, but again, that is exactly my point.  Bioware puts these things in there for titillation and shock value.  It's not really all that horrifying - in fact, it's really not.  It's horrifying to sheltered 20-somethings who, for most of their lives, have seen nothing darker than Care Bears.

How is it that stabbing a kid is NOT gritty?  Well, he's just a person just like anyone else, and if he's endangering entire towns just by living... ....well, I really don't see how that's all that "gritty."  You're taking out a threat that happens to look like a little kid.  How he looks doesn't change the fact that he's an inevitable massacre barely and temporarily held in check.  You kill him because he's dead anyway and this way, you spare everyone else.
If Isolde weren't so unreasonable and hysterical, she would have done it herself already.  It is a great failing on her part that she hasn't killed her own son yet, but it's not like that all that unusual, either.

Dark Fantasy != Gritty and realistic. That's usually common in most low fantasy settings.

[Bibdy]

 Bibdy:


How is it that stabbing a kid is NOT gritty?  Well, he's just a person just like anyone else, and if he's endangering entire towns just by living... ....well, I really don't see how that's all that "gritty."  You're taking out a threat that happens to look like a little kid. 

Okay, one more:

****ing christ man...I have no words. You're just ****ed up. You think that kind of scenario is commonplace in video games today? Its STILL a little kid. Its not just some generic threat. Its a tragic situation of a kid making a horribly bad mistake and having to pay the consequences for it, but its STILL a little kid. How desensitized are you? I'm seriously concerned you're not some child molester yourself that you can shrug off such situations so easily and still consider the game world to be en par with the numerous happy green field games on the market.

I don't think those situations you even suggested yourself would shock you. I mean, if you can shrug off the murder of a child that easily, then surely a hopeless situation would be easy to shrug off because, well, its not like its your fault is it? Those situations you described are nothing more than '**** happens', isn't it?

You just want to nitpick something trivial and its quite pathetic.

[gotthammer]

ReubenLiew wrote...
Plus it's marketting. Marketting told us Warhammer Online was to be the best thing since sliced bread. The bleeding liars.

Crappy MMO.

[Roxlimn]

 KalosCat:

Cutthroat machiavellian politics, violent and restrictive regulation of magic, Broodmother, betrayal in the name of blind nationalism, horrific curse as punishment for crimes long past, conscious spirits forced into (essentially) eternal slavery as golems, killing of demon-possessed children, mobbed by starving villagers intending to use the bounty on your head as a way to feed their families.

Um, yeah.  Politics is not horrific.  Starving villagers doing desperate things - also not horrific.  Slavery?  Also not particularly horrific.  Werewolf curse as punishment?  Eh.  It's not like their bodies are killing their own loved ones while they helplessly watch, you know.  Nationalism?  Not horrific.

Killing demon-possessed children?  Not horrific, particularly since nothing the child does onscreen is all that horror-inducing.  He's basically just a mob you kill.  Where's the horror?

Nothing you've mentioned is truly horrible.  As I said, they are compared to Rainbow Brite.  If that's your standard, then yes, DAO is darker than that.

Bibdy:

You missed the point. If it called itself 'generic fantasy' and it portrays all these things, wouldn't that seem kind of weird? Especially with an ESRB rating of M, with partial nudity, blood, intense violence and sexual content on the sticker. Makes much less sense to me than comparing it to the moral ideals of some of the more depraved nations of the world and saying that its not dark.

It's normal fantasy with an M rating.  Yes, I would expect it to contain nudity, blood, violence, and sexual content.  Have you read The Iliad?  It has more graphic portrayals of killing blows than are in DAO.  I don't see entrails here.  No bones stick out from broken bodies.
Aragorn dismembers Orcs and Men left and right with Anduril.  Legolas and Gimli together account for killing hundreds, just in one battle.  That's pretty intense violence.  Nothing in DAO is really all that intense.

[ReubenLiew]

gotthammer wrote...

KalosCast wrote...
It's not the darkest setting ever (that goes to 40k, though it's lessened by it not taking itself very seriously), but it's certainly a world that I'd prefer not living in.

Off-Topic: Hmm. I always thought that WH Fantasy was darker than 40k, thematically, anyway (and that 40k just seems so due to the scale it projects ? I also forget, as my buddies had a discussion about the two settings before, about which of them had 'hope' and which didn't...I think it was Fantasy that was lacking hope? I forget)

Yeah. I'm not sure that, given the chance, I'd want to live in a place like Ferelden (unless...say, I had the means to take/produce firearms and the means to produce ammo...and TOOTHPASTE!  )

Actually Fantasy is a touch more light-hearted than 40k. Granted scale does influence the 'grimdarkness' of 40k but in Fantasy the Empire is at it's Golden Age, where technology is on the rise and magic is controlled by schools. In 40k technology is stagnant, and psykers are taken from their homes and forced into either fueling the Throne if they're found wanting or forced into either the Scholastika Psykana or to be Soul-bound to the Emperor (resulting in the burning out of the eyes) and become astropaths. The Empire doesn't really have serfs, but in 40k many (if not most) of the population live their lives in constant servitude, little more than automatons that serve to fuel the war effort of the Imperium.

Dark Eldar are far worse than Dark Elves simply because they have the technology to do worse things. The Imperium is alone whilst at least for the Empire they have Brettonia or the Dwarves and even the Elves to fall back on in case things go ****** up. Plus you can spot the Undead coming, whilst nobody really expects the Necrons (like Inquisitors!)

And of course the Empire doesn't have child soldiers indoctrinated to feel only the rush of war and no other emotion and have invasive surgery performed on them so they become super badasses

[KalosCast]

gotthammer wrote...

Off-Topic: Hmm. I always thought that WH Fantasy was darker than 40k, thematically, anyway (and that 40k just seems so due to the scale it projects ? I also forget, as my buddies had a discussion about the two settings before, about which of them had 'hope' and which didn't...I think it was Fantasy that was lacking hope? I forget)

Off-Topic Response: I actually had this conversation rather recently too. Warhammer Fantasy (I will admit I'm not terribly well versed in) strikes me as more along the lines of the common misconception as to what Dark Fantasy is, that is, it's a pretty standard high-fantasy setting where everyone is an ****. They all have "dark" things about them, like ritual sacrifice and gods who picked an evil alignment on their character sheet and stuff like that, but I haven't seen much in the setting that would classify directly as as horror elements. Meanwhile, the Tau, who are essentially space-(National Socialist Party that dominated Germany in the 30's and 40's)s are generally considered the nicest of the races. They're essentially protected from Chaos and The Warp, except for the few times that such powers are able to manifest in the real world (in which case, you're probably under attack by the actual armies of chaos too and have bigger things to worry about), but for everyone else, you have the more or less constant threat of like a jillion different classic horror... well, horrors. Most of these horror monsters are then in turn either in service of (or running from, in the case of the Tyranids) even more powerful beings who have very little care for the plights of the sentient races of the galaxy.

Modifié par KalosCast, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...
Um, yeah.  Politics is not horrific.  Starving villagers doing desperate things - also not horrific.  Slavery?  Also not particularly horrific.  Werewolf curse as punishment?  Eh.  It's not like their bodies are killing their own loved ones while they helplessly watch, you know.  Nationalism?  Not horrific.

Okay, the politics and the nationalism aren't horror elements, they are however presented in a dark/cynical fashion.

However, whether or not something is "horror" has nothing to do with whether or not it scares you personally, it's a very old and very well-defined (and very wide) literary genre. Either you're trolling or retarded.

[Bibdy]

Come to think of it, all we're doing here is arguing the difference between

A) A dark (fantasy epic)

and

 a (dark fantasy) epic.

The game describes itself as a 'dark fantasy epic' and I think some signals have been crossed.

One being a standard RPG, which is more traditionally darker than what you would anticipate, the other being a very bleak world full of doom, horror and despair.

Pretty hilarious, when you think about it.

[Roxlimn]

 Bibdy:

I notice that many posters in American forums resort to insults and put downs when they can't put forth anything substantial.  Is this some North American thing?  I don't really see any point in it.

****ing christ man...I have no words. You're just ****ed up. You think that kind of scenario is commonplace in video games today? Its STILL a little kid. Its not just some generic threat. Its a tragic situation of a kid making a horribly bad mistake and having to pay the consequences for it, but its STILL a little kid. How desensitized are you? I'm seriously concerned you're not some child molester yourself that you can shrug off such situations so easily and still consider the game world to be en par with the numerous happy green field games on the market.

The point isn't how desensitized I am - the point is how desensitized YOU are.  Nothing and no one is ever a "generic threat."  Those people American soldiers randomly gun down or blast into smithereens in the news with bad intel are people - they have children, parents, families and their own stories and lives.  For all you know, that family killed by a wrongly placed bomb was celebrating some kid's 4th birthday.  They didn't do anything wrong.  They made no mistake.  They just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

There ARE no "generic threats."  Everyone is someone's son or father or daughter or sister.  I assume you're familiar with African child soldiers?  Drafted by force and kept loyal through addiction, they gun you down at the orders of their superiors.  They're still kids.  They didn't even make mistakes.  They were forced into their situation - worse than slaves.  You still gun them down when they're trying to kill you.
EVERY death is tragic.  I'm rather surprised that you would make this case for that one little thing.  Many children in Redcliffe died.  Kaitlyn's brother could have died because you simply didn't care enough.  That is a much greater tragedy, because he didn't need to die.

[Drake Sigar]

It's not particularly dark. Frankly Bioware were hoping you wouldn't notice. Every time I saw the advertisments, I was imagining a pasty white man in his 50s with greying hair shouting at the top of his lungs "COME PLAY THIS XTREAME NEW GAME, IT'S BALLS TO THE WALL XTREAME AND WILL MACK YOUR SISTER WHILE YOU WATCH! HE JUST KILLED A DRAGON, THAT'S HARDCORE MAN, XTREAMEEEEEEEEEEE!"

[ReubenLiew]

Perhaps marketting people need to start going to TVTropes more often and just picking whichever trope that fits their game best.

Fereldan isn't a Crapsack world to be sure.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

 Bibdy:

I notice that many posters in American forums resort to insults and put downs when they can't put forth anything substantial.  Is this some North American thing?  I don't really see any point in it.

I don't know what else to call someone who makes up their own definitions for something and considers it a logical proof that their opinion is correct.

[Bibdy]

Roxlimn wrote...

 Bibdy:

I notice that many posters in American forums resort to insults and put downs when they can't put forth anything substantial.  Is this some North American thing?  I don't really see any point in it.

****ing christ man...I have no words. You're just ****ed up. You think that kind of scenario is commonplace in video games today? Its STILL a little kid. Its not just some generic threat. Its a tragic situation of a kid making a horribly bad mistake and having to pay the consequences for it, but its STILL a little kid. How desensitized are you? I'm seriously concerned you're not some child molester yourself that you can shrug off such situations so easily and still consider the game world to be en par with the numerous happy green field games on the market.

The point isn't how desensitized I am - the point is how desensitized YOU are.  Nothing and no one is ever a "generic threat."  Those people American soldiers randomly gun down or blast into smithereens in the news with bad intel are people - they have children, parents, families and their own stories and lives.  For all you know, that family killed by a wrongly placed bomb was celebrating some kid's 4th birthday.  They didn't do anything wrong.  They made no mistake.  They just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

There ARE no "generic threats."  Everyone is someone's son or father or daughter or sister.  I assume you're familiar with African child soldiers?  Drafted by force and kept loyal through addiction, they gun you down at the orders of their superiors.  They're still kids.  They didn't even make mistakes.  They were forced into their situation - worse than slaves.  You still gun them down when they're trying to kill you.
EVERY death is tragic.  I'm rather surprised that you would make this case for that one little thing.  Many children in Redcliffe died.  Kaitlyn's brother could have died because you simply didn't care enough.  That is a much greater tragedy, because he didn't need to die.

Ugh..you make my head hurt.

The difference is YOU WEREN'T THE ONE THAT KILLED THEM. YOU didn't make the decision to do that.

Big difference between A) seeing dead children everywhere and you were the one that stabbed them all to death. In the context of a video game, it makes a HUGE difference. Difference between "oh my god, this game world is pretty grim" and "HOLY ****ING **** I JUST KILLED A CHILD!".

And hang on, no generic threat? What exactly is the archdemon? My sister turned freaky? The Fade demons? They're cruel manifestations of emotions, not my friend Sally's dead aunt Claudia come back to tear my head off for stealing her pie that one time.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Roxlimn]

 KalosCast:

It's politics - since when has politics ever been portrayed as a conflict in an M-rated game and NOT have it be cynical?

As for Horror - the game's not really very strong on that front, too.  As I mentioned Broodmother is possibly the most horrific element here and that's been very carefully blunted by having it happen to someone your character isn't very familiar with.

Ditto with the demonic possession.  At no point does any major character you're close to become an abomination.  There is no strong horror theme in the game, even by literary standards.

[Varenus Luckmann]

eschilde wrote...

Well, it had its dark bits. Like the broodmother. Or the orphanage.

Spot on.
The problem being that those two are the only situations that I'd actually call "Dark".

[Malkut]

"Reasonable" people murder their children at the first sign that they are a threat?

[ReubenLiew]

Reasonable people traded their children as food so they wouldn't have to kill their own children to prevent starvation!



True story in fact.

[Roxlimn]

 Bibdy:

The difference is YOU WEREN'T THE ONE THAT KILLED THEM. YOU didn't make the decision to do that.

Big difference between A) seeing dead children everywhere and you were the one that stabbed them all to death. In the context of a video game, it makes a HUGE difference. Difference between "oh my god, this game world is pretty grim" and "HOLY ****ING **** I JUST KILLED A CHILD!".

I can see that this really horrifies you.  In some ways, I envy you your sheltered worlds.  Child mortality is the highest age-group mortality in most of the developing world.  Sometimes it's due to neglect.  Other times, it's not nearly so benign.
Children dying is reality.  Your character being a killer is a reality in Dragon Age.  It's not all that horrific that you should be killing child-shaped abominations when they're imminent threats to the lives of virtually everyone in a 100 mile radius.  Putting it in caps only shows how it affects you.  Bioware put that in specifically for the shock value.  Apparently, they know their demographic well.
It doesn't shock me.  He's a threat and killing him saves lives.  If he were any wiser, he would be begging me to kill him, himself.  Some kids actually are that self-aware.  That would actually be harder.  You know, if he's asking you to kill him?  And yes, I've been in a similarly hard situation.  It's harder when the child knows what's what.