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[GU1LD3NST3RN]

gearseffect wrote...

GU1LD3NST3RN wrote...

Speaking as somebody who opts for Ashley as their prime LI, I can definitely see what you're talking about. Heck, not only was Ash's romance arc seriously lacking but so was any form of interaction with her whatsoever: If I recall correctly, the only time you get to talk to her on the Normandy (like really talk, none of this pre-canned audio without player input garbage), is after she gets herself drunk: and even that hardly counts because she can only mumble. I know a lot of people didn't like her but geez, they didn't have to shove her on the sidelines for the first half of the game and then completely reduce her character to a shadow of what it was in ME1.

That being said, I don't necessarily begrudge those that romanced Liara; even though I didn't pursue her romantically there were still some very touching moments with her (the Vulcan Mind Meld thing near the end was absolutely beautiful, for instance). So I'm actually quite glad she got a good romance arc, I just think it's a bummer that they didn't give the same level of attention to Ash, and I don't even want to think about the folks that romanced Jack, Miranda, or Jacob; so much as blink and you'll miss their appearance.

So I didn't miss any convos with Ash than? I was thinking I missed something because I only gotta talk with her when she was sh!tfaced and I was like ummm WTF?
So I thought that I just missed something more on Normandy with her.
T
his makes it worse now, all we get is her drunk convo, good god that's stupid. Hell Tali's autodialogue Drunk Convo was WAY Better than Ash's non Autodialogue convo.

Don't take my word as law or anything here; I've only played through the game maybe 1 3/4 times now so it's still very possible that I may have missed something, but to my knowledge that's all there is. Granted, we still have one or two conversations here and there on the Citadel, but the rest of the time we get autodialogue, which I'm very annoyed they're still doing even after Dragon Age 2: the reason RPGs are so immersive is because you get to actively engage with the NPCs, not just passively listen to them like in every other game genre out there.

[VlPER007]

*sighs* no gearseffect, you didn't miss a thing. that was pretty much it. I wish they did it sort of like ME2, after a mission you get to talk to everyone. i thought the drunk scene was kinda funny....though i wish i could find out what the problem was. if i remember right all she says was she had a lot on her mind. was this still her thinking about her sister? if it was, good grief, that seems a bit extreme to still be at that point after how many days? and it wasn't even her husband dead. lol

oh wow, thanks for the date reminder cptdata....it was so whatever, i actually forgot about it completely till ur post. lol interestingly, as annoyed as i am with the Ash relationship, I would have been pissed about the miranda one. the whole time she sounded soooooo shady, and could barely spend more than 5 min with you before needing to dissappear again. her first convo with you was completely pointless as well.

Miranda: "Hey Shepard I need to talk to you."
Shepard: "Ok about what?"
Miranda: "My sister. She's gone and I think it's my dads fault!"
Shepard: "How can I help?!"
Miranda: "You can't. I'll talk you later once i know something. Bye!"
Shepard: *Blank stare as she leaves* WTF! Then WHY did she need to see me?"

lol Epic Fail! (Edit: I felt so used! lol) So glad I didn't bother with Miranda and decided to stay faithful to Ash in ME2. Which btw brings up another question. Did anyone else have Ash say: "I heard you moved on with a lot of people." When you were telling her that you still loved her....even though you were faithful? Although the comment was funny, where did that come from. I felt like I was being punished even though I was faithful. lol

Modifié par VlPER007, 23 mars 2012 - 10:38 .

[CptData]

Nope, didn't had that line, Viper. Maybe it's used if you had Kelly dancing for you? She's not considered as a full blown romance after all.

I also want to know why Ash got drunk. She's not the type for random hangovers, so - there has to be a reason. And I want to know about it. Seriously - under normal circumstances your CO would give you more than a friendly talk. Brig anyone?
So I guess Shep has a right to ask Ashley in a dialogue later. It doesn't happen.

There are so many opportunities to give Ash more dialogue without shoving her in anyone's face - and all of them got wasted.

[VlPER007]

CptData wrote...

Nope, didn't had that line, Viper. Maybe it's used if you had Kelly dancing for you? She's not considered as a full blown romance after all.

I also want to know why Ash got drunk. She's not the type for random hangovers, so - there has to be a reason. And I want to know about it. Seriously - under normal circumstances your CO would give you more than a friendly talk. Brig anyone?
So I guess Shep has a right to ask Ashley in a dialogue later. It doesn't happen.

There are so many opportunities to give Ash more dialogue without shoving her in anyone's face - and all of them got wasted.

....blast!  I knew that was a bad idea.   and yes I agree.  They wasted every opportunity to let Ash shine.  I think that drunk scenario could have actually been a great bonding moment as Shep helped her through whatever it was.  But nope.  I felt like she was getting more friendly with Vega than anything else. lol

[shadey]

bioware killed ashley's character after me1


me 2 you get one scene and she's busting your nuts over working with cerberus,

me 3 she's still mad and doubting you , she's not even in the squad half the game. And get this, there is not a single conversation you can have with her when she finally gets on the normandy she acts like a DLC character with one liners,I don't count one scene where she's drunk on the floor as anything. You can't even invite her to your cabin or anything.

I feel like they tried too hard to sexualize her in me3 as well, she has flatform shoes for goodness sakes and dresses kind of stripperish in what is suppose to be military attire.

I liked her in me1 when she was like a tomboy basically, but still acted like a female, that's what i'll remember her by

Modifié par shadey, 23 mars 2012 - 10:48 .

[GU1LD3NST3RN]

VlPER007 wrote...
I felt like she was getting more friendly with Vega than anything else. lol

Anybody else almost shoot Vega when he started talking about "what Ash got up to last night"? 

He saved himself a second later by clarifying that she only got [redacted]-faced, but man, he was about to get tossed out an airlock. 

[Ashii6]

I was pretty disappointed with Ash content, or should I say, the lack of some serious content..?
Really, Liara has more attention than any other squaddie in ME3. I have to say, even damn Javik ( DLC character ) has more attention than Ash. And that hurts. I remember when devs were saying: " VS will be very important in ME3 ". Riiight. So important that it can kill them.. Virmire 2.0, so to speak. Eh. I want more Ashley! :|

[EmGo]

 Yeah, Liara got a LOT of time and scenes in ME3. I didn't like Liara in ME1 or ME2, in ME3 i started to like her, but I would prefer to get more conversations with Garrus, not with Liara.

[CptData]

Ashii6 wrote...

I was pretty disappointed with Ash content, or should I say, the lack of some serious content..?
Really, Liara has more attention than any other squaddie in ME3. I have to say, even damn Javik ( DLC character ) has more attention than Ash. And that hurts. I remember when devs were saying: " VS will be very important in ME3 ". Riiight. So important that it can kill them.. Virmire 2.0, so to speak. Eh. I want more Ashley! :|

The only really pivotal situation was the Udina event. And basically, it's all about "kill VS" or "let VS live". That's it. The VS has no pivotal role at all. Garrus has a pivotal role. Tali has a pivotal role. Liara, of course, has a pivotal role. Joker has none, but EDI has a pivotal role.

Just the VS has none.

[VlPER007]

@ shadey - Yup. Loved her in ME1. Thought the tomboy but still a woman attitude was great. ME3 comes along and turns her into a depressed and suspicious person who makes a weird 360 in her attitude toward you at the last possible moment.

@ gu1ld3nst3rn - YES! Glad it wasn't just me. lol

@ Ashii6 - Agreed. Also...forgive the no doubt stupid question, but....what does "VS" mean? I keep seeing it, but can't for the life of me, think of what the acronym stands for...

[Ashii6]

@Viper: VS - Virmire Survivor.

[VlPER007]

Ashii6 wrote...

@Viper: VS - Virmire Survivor.

ah. glad i asked. i would have never guess that.

[GU1LD3NST3RN]

Thinking about all this a little more, I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that the writers who originally made these characters just aren't there anymore. The guy who wrote Ash, for example, no longer works for BioWare, and a lot of the other original writers are gone as well; this is pretty easy to see not only through the lack of serious interaction, but also that Ash never brings up her trepidation over working with Aliens nor her belief in God, both of which were major parts of her life.

Compare this to Liara, who got a lot more development in the more recent cycles what with LoTSB and all that, and characters like Tali and Garrus had two full games to develop instead of just one like Ash/Kaidan or Miranda and Thane. All this makes it seems more likely that Liara was developed by more people over more time, thus making her the easiest for the current team to write for come ME3.

Additionally, she is also the only character who can't die. Remember that developers generally don't like making a bunch of content that the consumer will never see, so it's just a simple matter of utility that Liara got the most development: she was the most likely to even be alive at this point.

[Arlionis]

Jake Boone wrote...

It's not just you. Liara feels more like a co-protagonist that a squadmate in ME3. I know she is the shadow broker and a prothean expert, but she did have a little too much screen time IMO.

Not enough for me!

[saracen16]

Messier87 wrote...

Liara and the VS have the most developed romances from what I've seen. Tali and Garrus are next in the tier list with great romances, but have mediocre pre-battle love scenes. It seems to be the consensus that all other romances were shafted.

I dunno... my LI was Miranda, and her scene left me thinking as to what was really happenning when the screen faded to black. Hoo hoo hoo...

[mars_central]

GU1LD3NST3RN wrote...

VlPER007 wrote...
I felt like she was getting more friendly with Vega than anything else. lol

Anybody else almost shoot Vega when he started talking about "what Ash got up to last night"? 

He saved himself a second later by clarifying that she only got [redacted]-faced, but man, he was about to get tossed out an airlock. 

To be honest, I'd have been happy if I could have left Vega on Earth with Anderson at the beginning, he didn't add anything to the game for me. It would have made more sense to have the VS (in my case, Ashley) with me and learn to trust me again more naturally. For my femshep, Liara is her LI, but Ash is her buddy standing right next to her as she's kicking bottom.

[VlPER007]

@ gu1ld3nst3rn - So basically, ur saying they are lazy....sounds about right....look at the ending. lol i mean it makes sense from a developers side...i guess. but from a business side, I just don't see how pissing off everybody who didn't want Liara as a romance option was a good sound business decision outside of being quicker and cheaper to do. Especially once you take the end into account, everyone starts nitpicking at everything. course then again, maybe this was their plan all along. screw everything up so we'll buy dlc which fixes their laziness.

@mars_central. Agreed. He was alright, but I would so have rather had grunt (whome he obviously replaced) on the team.

[VlPER007]

I just want the ME1 treatment they gave Ashley's character......is that so much to ask? lol

[GU1LD3NST3RN]

VlPER007 wrote...

@ gu1ld3nst3rn - So basically, ur saying they are lazy....sounds about right....look at the ending. lol i mean it makes sense from a developers side...i guess. but from a business side, I just don't see how pissing off everybody who didn't want Liara as a romance option was a good sound business decision outside of being quicker and cheaper to do. Especially once you take the end into account, everyone starts nitpicking at everything. course then again, maybe this was their plan all along. screw everything up so we'll buy dlc which fixes their laziness.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend the choices they made, just theorizing on why they were made. Game development is a long, hard, ever-shifting process and it's difficult to provide cohesion for a franchise that has had different people fly in and out of it over the years; but there's always a way to make it work, and that didn't happen here.

[CptData]

Whenever I talk about the VS, I don't only want to see more romance stuff - the romances are okay. I just want to see 'em becoming "full" squadmates interacting with the rest of the crew. Seriously, Ashley is not the loner. And Kaidan has not enough interaction as well.

Just want to see a complete experience with the VS. Both were my favorite squadmates in ME1 - and I had to sacrifice one of them in favor of the other one. And I definitely want to make sure that sacrifice was worth it - that's why I'm romancing Ash, so Kaidan's death wasn't meaningless in the playthroughs where he died. But I also want to see more non-romance but friendly stuff with the VS. Seriously ... why's it so difficult to add some dialogue that's not dealing with a romance?

Make the VS feel complete.
And while you're at it, BW, give ME2!lovers some love too.

[VlPER007]

GU1LD3NST3RN wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend the choices they made, just theorizing on why they were made. Game development is a long, hard, ever-shifting process and it's difficult to provide cohesion for a franchise that has had different people fly in and out of it over the years; but there's always a way to make it work, and that didn't happen here.

No and I agree.  I think why I'm less hesitant to be forgiving is because I was GM for a rather large (8-10 people) rpg group for about 5 years.  I know just how hard it can be to keep a story on track especially when you have that many people with varying ideas on how to solve a problem. 

Quite honestly I feel my job as a GM was harder than theirs, because as long as the players requested action or comments were physically possible and followed cannon, I felt as a GM I had to allow them, despite how I wanted to react.  Not only that, but I had to to do it on the fly with no time to plan.  I enjoyed it though because it was challenging and fun when someone came up with a reaction I hadn't anticipated.  It was up to me to make it all work in a cohesive way and keep things interesting, not the players.  Thus the point of a GM or in this case, a game developer.  They have it much easier with the relationships in that they can actually control our responses. (in a way, while still giving us choice) This allows for much easier development of characters when you now control what the outcomes could be.

My response moreso back on topic to the relationships is, if they wanted to make a game where decisions matter.  Don't give us a ton of romance options if you don't plan to keep the development up on the characters.  They knew full well, when they created Miranda, Jack, Tali, and all the other characters as LI that some people would choose them.  To not develop them now on the last game and say it was development costs stopping us, is both poor planning and to be quite frank, stupidity.  Since they knew what was involved with developing characters properly.  I don't mean to sound harsh to BW (especially since they do possess the ability to create amazing games and great character development.....Liara), but there it is.

Modifié par VlPER007, 23 mars 2012 - 12:02 .

[Ashii6]

CptData wrote...

Whenever I talk about the VS, I don't only want to see more romance stuff - the romances are okay. I just want to see 'em becoming "full" squadmates interacting with the rest of the crew. Seriously, Ashley is not the loner. And Kaidan has not enough interaction as well.

Just want to see a complete experience with the VS. Both were my favorite squadmates in ME1 - and I had to sacrifice one of them in favor of the other one. And I definitely want to make sure that sacrifice was worth it - that's why I'm romancing Ash, so Kaidan's death wasn't meaningless in the playthroughs where he died. But I also want to see more non-romance but friendly stuff with the VS. Seriously ... why's it so difficult to add some dialogue that's not dealing with a romance?

Make the VS feel complete.
And while you're at it, BW, give ME2!lovers some love too.

This. So true. QFT.

[CroGamer002]

Yeah, you can see the reason why I have really hard time to like Liara.

[CptData]

Mesina2 wrote...

Yeah, you can see the reason why I have really hard time to like Liara.

Sure. It's not that I dislike Liara for having more content. Actually, I'm glad she got that content, so we get an idea what BW could have done to other characters as well.

I just dislike the lack of content for certain so called "permament" squadmates in ME3. And feel bad for ME2!LIs. Seriously, why got fem!Shep the shortest end of the stick? Thane dying (okay, at least we knew this was going to happen) and Jacob moving on? If Kaidan died on Virmire, fem!Shep either has to go with Garrus, stay alone or turn bi. F00ked up situation, huh?

[GU1LD3NST3RN]

CptData wrote...

Seriously, why got fem!Shep the shortest end of the stick? Thane dying (okay, at least we knew this was going to happen) and Jacob moving on?

I'll be honest and say that I was actually quite glad BioWare didn't give in and come up with some miracle cure for Thane at the last minute. It would have been so easy to give some of the fans their sappy, happy ending (until we got to the actual ending, anyway) with that guy, but they stuck to their guns and made him have to keep dealing with Kepler's Syndrome. Heck, they even managed to let the guy go out like a champ, letting him keep the mortality theme going while still giving him a death worthy of the galaxy's greatest assassin. I didn't even like Thane, but I felt like his exit from the series was fitting and actually quite awesome. 

Still a shame the femsheps didn't get more time with him, but they knew this was coming: there's no happy ending in pursuing the dude with the terminal disease, I don't think.