429 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorrieb]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

My goal was to save our civilization, and our civilization fell anyway. I suppose future civilizations may thank us for breaking the galactic cycle for them, and at least our species were not made extinct, which is better'n'nothing. Yay, me.

Better than nothing?  Better than nothing?

Dorrieb, you are way too hard on yourself.  You ended a cycle of galactic extinctions that have been going on for at least 37 million years.  You saved billions upon billions of human and alien men, women and children from being turned into zombies, or being fed feet first into a meat grinder as part of some diabolical transcendance.

That was way better than nothing.  If you did that in the universe I lived in I would be thinking thoughts a lot more grateful than yay, Dorrieb.

What can I say? I'm just not feeling it.

[Strike2k2]

Sidney wrote...

Strike2k2 wrote...
What part suvived? Does a mass relay explosion no longer destroy and entire solar system? Even if we grant a pass and say, "this time, the mass relay explosions didn't take out the solar system" you still have civilizations cut off from resources and supply lines that no doubt feed a whole population of people.

I cut out all the quotes because frankly people oversell in their own minds what these things mean. Every decision you make is reflected in the game - it is summed up into the score that affects the endings. There, game over they did what you wanted but they didn't do it the way you wanted.

Why do people still think that crashing an asteroid into a working relay and having it disharge it's energy first are the same thing? This is sort oif like saying crashing a plane loaded with fuel is the same as drianing that fuel and then crashing it. You get very different kinds of *booms* from those moments.

As for food, where do you think food is grown? The homeworlds of all these species is viable for food production.

Yes, blowing up the relays is dramatic but, again, the Reapers had won for hundred of cycles. You think that beating them was gonna come at a low cost?

I'm not trying to sell quotes. I was just trying to outline the obvious difference between what was promised and what was done.

But anyway, here is a link to a review that goes into detail the relationship between story and reader. I though it was an interesting read about the do's and don'ts of story telling and why.

http://www.themetaga...oblem-with.html

Thanks for the Dialog though Sidney.

[JPR1964]

Dark Age this, Dark Age that :that's now 25 years that we eat dark age every year in many games...

Hello, so called artists, can we have something different time to time?

It would be nice for a change no?

JPR out!

[majormajormmajor]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

 You saved billions upon billions of human and alien men, women and children from being turned into zombies, or being fed feet first into a meat grinder as part of some diabolical transcendance.

Said billions are now condemned to a slow death by starvation, diesease and war instead of being harvested.

[The Angry One]

No, it's not the price we HAD to pay. It's the price Shepard settled for, and we had to go along with it.

And for what? For civilisation to still be in the dark ages 10,000 years later?
Might as well let the Reapers win.

[The Angry One]

majormajormmajor wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

 You saved billions upon billions of human and alien men, women and children from being turned into zombies, or being fed feet first into a meat grinder as part of some diabolical transcendance.

Said billions are now condemned to a slow death by starvation, diesease and war instead of being harvested.

Granted if you get as low an EMS as possible, you can incinerate Earth and spare them the future horror.
Yay.

[Tleining]

CaptainZaysh wrote...


Better than nothing?  Better than nothing?

Dorrieb, you are way too hard on yourself.  You ended a cycle of galactic extinctions that have been going on for at least 37 million years.  You saved billions upon billions of human and alien men, women and children from being turned into zombies, or being fed feet first into a meat grinder as part of some diabolical transcendance.

That was way better than nothing.  If you did that in the universe I lived in I would be thinking thoughts a lot more grateful than yay, Dorrieb.

Instead you leave the Fleets stranded in the Sol-System with no food for Turians and Quarians, i'm sure they are grateful for the chance to starve to death.
Earth has been burned and devastated by the Reapers and the eezo-cores of the destroyed Fleet, not much food from there. Everyone else can starve as well. Joy.

Colonies are cut off from each other. Some of them had to rely on Merchant-Vessels for medical supplies. I'm sure they are grateful as well.

[Strike2k2]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

I agree as well, and also with the comment from Mordin someone posted above.  But I also don't like how Shepard went from never giving up to just surrender and doing what the Catalyst (Who according to him is the main villian of the entire series) says.  He just gobbles up all the crap he spouts off and accepts it for gospel... WHY?

That's not Commander Shepard, he doesn't just give up and listen to the villian.  He didn't do it for Saren, or Sovereign, or the Illusive Man, or Harbringer!  Why would he do it now and just by the tripe?

Real ending choices would include Shepard not just picking from Space Magic options presented by the worst forced character and plot additions I've seen in a very long time.

But you can choose not to take any of the Catalyst's options.

How? By unplugging my powerstrip? lol

[Sherbet Lemon]

Thornquist wrote...

I think Bioware did to little to show just how hopeless this war really was. The fact that many people think they could win conventionally, shows that the game should have shown just how unbeatable the Reapers really was.

I agree with this, mostly.  I think this is the problem that makes parts of the ending difficult to take.  If we look at how long the cycle has gone on:  millions upon millions of years (I think at least 47 million?), it is staggering that Shepard and Company are even able to do what s/he did.  Most of that information had to be gleaned from reading planetary descriptions and is quite easy to miss.  But yeah, I think something more overt might have been helpful.

My opinion is that Bioware was in a difficult spot, essentially.  How do you make the "machine gods" a viable threat without making them too hopeless or the opposite easily beatable, almost laughable.  I mean millions upon millions upon millions of years of existence versus a very young, very frightened civilization?  I think the answer was that yes, a person can win but at considerable cost otherwise your villains lose weight.  Of course, you can disagree or not like the manner in which they implemented this.  I see portions of their reasonings as problematic and I wouldn't say I'm really fond of the endings, but I also can see why they chose some of the things they did.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 23 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[majormajormmajor]

We save civilisation by destroying it. All makes sense

[CaptainZaysh]

Wildhide wrote...

The decisions are reflected, but by the way the game ends are made pointless.  Thus they don't actually matter or have any impact.  Who cares if you cured the Genophage?  The Krogan will overpopulate their homeworld that's barely alive and die off.  The rest are going to die stuck at Earth, or just start killing people.

*facepalm*

If you don't believe the krogan are capable of controlling their urges to overpopulate or coexist peacefully, why'd you cure the genophage?  This is the whole point of the genophage argument.  Seriously, were you paying no attention to what everyone was agonising about?

Wildhide wrote...
It was nice of you to give the Quarians Rannoch and have them make peace with the Geth.  Too bad most of them can't get to Rannoch and will starve over Earth.  

Except they have liveships, with FTL drives.  Cloning meat is something we're experimenting with today.  Yes, they'll need to ration, yes, they'll need to innovate, but assuming they will all die is incredibly lazy thinking.

Wildhide wrote...
Of course we're assuming the relays didn't just blow up both solar systems like game lore suggests.

The game lore suggests no such thing, since the method of destruction in Arrival (smash a planet-sized asteroid into it) is different from the method of destruction in ME3 (energy pulse sent from the central control unit).

[ConradsLaces]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Tracer Tong would be proud.

I thought about this last night, in another thread about the Dark Age...

"The whole grid - it's going down, JC! It's a new... Dark Age! Find me JC!"

[CaptainZaysh]

majormajormmajor wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

 You saved billions upon billions of human and alien men, women and children from being turned into zombies, or being fed feet first into a meat grinder as part of some diabolical transcendance.

Said billions are now condemned to a slow death by starvation, diesease and war instead of being harvested.

Yes, because no civilisation ever arose without a mass relay to feed, cure and arrange peace for it, eh?

[ConradsLaces]

Mass Effect 4: Dark Ages

"Embrace the spirit of adventure, as you try and get humanity to the stars! Rediscover ancient alien races! Build your own rocket ship, and try to get it into space!"

...Kerbal Space Program...
www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/

[CaptainZaysh]

Strike2k2 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

But you can choose not to take any of the Catalyst's options.

How? By unplugging my powerstrip? lol

Apparently if you just wait out, the Citadel is destroyed, and the cycle continues.  So Shepard can heroically defy the Catalyst, it just turns out the Catalyst was actually correct.

[majormajormmajor]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

*facepalm*

If you don't believe the krogan are capable of controlling their urges to overpopulate or coexist peacefully, why'd you cure the genophage?  This is the whole point of the genophage argument.  Seriously, were you paying no attention to what everyone was agonising about?

The expectation with the cure is that they are going to ask for several planets back from the Council to colonise, so there would be some room for this sustainable expansion. Without the mass relays this becomes impossible.

[The Angry One]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

 You saved billions upon billions of human and alien men, women and children from being turned into zombies, or being fed feet first into a meat grinder as part of some diabolical transcendance.

Said billions are now condemned to a slow death by starvation, diesease and war instead of being harvested.

Yes, because no civilisation ever arose without a mass relay to feed, cure and arrange peace for it, eh?

How do you go through life with this level of naivety.
Every civilised world in the galaxy is devastated. Worlds that had come to rely on trade and supplies from colonies even in their prime.
They need aid from the entire galaxy to get back on their feet and now they have NOTHING.

They WILL starve and they WILL die.
Humans survived without modern technology for tens of thousands of years. But if you took the current population and stripped them of everything, what would happen? THEY WOULD DIE.
Not only them, but those who've come to rely on them. You think the third world tribes and the Amish would be safe? They would die from wars and lack of aid. Nobody would survive such an upheaval.

[ConradsLaces]

Calamity wrote...

I was expecting to beat the reapers on earth, then each of the other systems in DLC. They definitely would have gotten their DLC $$s then

This would have been awesome!
Sol System DLC
Terminus Systems DLC

Have the Citadel/Catalyst combo substantially weaken the Reapers, and give us our ending with closure...
Then... if we want to take the fight to the Reapers throughout the galaxt, we can buy the System Retake DLCs, and push them all the way back to... Dark Space.

That would have been amazing.

[Strike2k2]

The Angry One wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

 You saved billions upon billions of human and alien men, women and children from being turned into zombies, or being fed feet first into a meat grinder as part of some diabolical transcendance.

Said billions are now condemned to a slow death by starvation, diesease and war instead of being harvested.

Granted if you get as low an EMS as possible, you can incinerate Earth and spare them the future horror.
Yay.

LOL! I know right? I don't see how anyone can see all these ending as anything but the grimist of grim. After all the work people have put into the games why is it wrong to want something better then what we got. If we wanted to be smacked in the face by the harshness of reality we could watch the god damn news instead. And that's free.

But no. We wanted to be the hero, to make a difference. To change the world/universe that we were in for the better. But.... A,B and C. Screwed, Jacked, and BDSM without lube. Those are our choices. I've gotta take a break. I'm getting upset about this **** again.

[The Angry One]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Strike2k2 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

But you can choose not to take any of the Catalyst's options.

How? By unplugging my powerstrip? lol

Apparently if you just wait out, the Citadel is destroyed, and the cycle continues.  So Shepard can heroically defy the Catalyst, it just turns out the Catalyst was actually correct.

How the  hell does that make the Catalyst correct?

[majormajormmajor]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Yes, because no civilisation ever arose without a mass relay to feed, cure and arrange peace for it, eh?

Then is then and now is now. In case you haven't noticed, society becomes dependent on the technology that lets it advance to that stage in the first place.

Take smallpox, for instance. Just because some people had immunity to it back before its eradication means its safe to release it on a modern, completely vulnerable population?

Modifié par majormajormmajor, 23 mars 2012 - 05:11 .

[ConradsLaces]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

I think I would have preferred being reaped.

Consider yourself Reaped

[CaptainZaysh]

Tleining wrote...

Instead you leave the Fleets stranded in the Sol-System with no food for Turians and Quarians, i'm sure they are grateful for the chance to starve to death.

Earth has been burned and devastated by the Reapers and the eezo-cores of the destroyed Fleet, not much food from there. Everyone else can starve as well. Joy.

Colonies are cut off from each other. Some of them had to rely on Merchant-Vessels for medical supplies. I'm sure they are grateful as well.

You are right.  The dextros need to do something very smart about either using the liveships as the basis for a bioscience solution to the food problem, or they need to do something very smart with their FTL drives to get them to a dextro world.

The extent of the damage to Earth is unclear (although it's not exactly the surface of the moon - central London is less devastated than it would have been via nuclear war, for instance).  However there will certainly be a vast challenge ahead in rebuilding it.

Isolated colonies will need to figure out their own solutions.  And yeah, ones in utterly hostile environments are going to perish.  Any in a system with a garden world (or maybe even just working hydroponics) has a fighting chance, though.

The fact that you see these post-war problems as too depressing to even contemplate the idea there may be solutions for them says a lot to me.

[Malchat]

Thornquist wrote...

My opinion is that Bioware was in a difficult spot, essentially.  How do you make the "machine gods" a viable threat without making them too hopeless or the opposite easily beatable, almost laughable.

That's quite easy actually and already suggested by a theme running throughout the games:

Unity in diversity.

You can suggest that these machine gods have an utterly pessimistic view of galactic civilizations and expect them to always be at each other's throats (or thralls of a conquering empire, such as the Protheans.)

Such strife both facilitates and motivates the Reapers' obsession with order through extinction.

They use enslaved races such as the Collectors to instill dread and hopelessnes by having them abduct planetary settlements wholesale. And every cycle, collaborators like Ceberus snuff out the brightest flames of resistance. To the Reapers, it's an infallible strategy, based on the primitive, selfish drives of Galactic life as they perceive it.

But this cycle, there is Shepard - "a symbol, a bloody icon" - who is able to unite all of the Galaxy against these machines, stop the abductions and annihilate the Reaper collaborators ... completely messing up their ancient strategy.

It's a beautiful hopeful theme.

Of course the endgame has a few things to say about the place of 'unity' and 'diversity' in the Galaxy, things which we are supposed to experience as 'bittersweet'.

Modifié par Malchat, 23 mars 2012 - 05:20 .

[majormajormmajor]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The fact that you see these post-war problems as too depressing to even contemplate the idea there may be solutions for them says a lot to me.

That's the thing, innit? They wanted LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE- problem is, given how apocalyptic society tends to be these days, that speculation is veering off into profoundly negative directions.

This general pervading outlook, and  deduction from what we know of the ME universe, naturally leads to the assumption of catastrophe from most; whereas it will take an avowed optimist considerable leaps of logic for the ending to seem hopeful.

Modifié par majormajormmajor, 23 mars 2012 - 05:18 .