429 réponses à ce sujet

[Phearmonger]

Cody211282 wrote...

Silent Rage wrote...

They don't even give us a choice to use it or not.

This, or hell just have the fleet blow the hell out of the citedel.

Which would help organics how?

[VvAndromedavV]

Spotty Squirrel wrote...

The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3 has a flow chart that shows the Prothean VI stating that the Crucible will cause a "galatic dark age".  Is a galatic dark age a reasonable price to pay for destroying the Reapers forever, or is the price just too high?

I think it is a reasonable, but very high, price to pay.  If the Reapers were not eliminated, they would destroy most of the Galaxy's life anyway.

Well, in the Arrival DLC they established that a Mass Relay explosion will wipe out an entire system, so based on that every system with a Mass Relay would be obliterated. This includes Earth as well as the Krogan, Asari, and Turian homeworlds---likely more but that's all I know off the top of my head.

Is wiping out the Reapers worth the complete loss of all advanced organic life in the current cycle? Personally I think not. Sure, the Reapers won't be around for the next cycle but everyone in the current cycle will die, anyway, so why not just take your chances and try to fight them conventionally?

Granted, the cut scenes make it look like the Mass Relays didn't take out their respective systems for some unknown reason, but even if that were the case, there would be mass starvation due to the sudden lack of ability to feed all the people scattered about the galaxy---not to mention all the Turians and Quarians that came to the Sol System to help fight the Reapers who can't eat any of the food on Earth.

I expected casualties but the way the ending stands now is just too bleak for me and although I love the Mass Effect series more than any other game the conclusion was so depressing that I don't ever want to touch the games again. I wish that were not the case, but it is. Why should I care about re-playing any of the games if the ending is basically "all the species that you ever met are now dead and/or starved to death but hey, the Reapers are gone."

Modifié par VvAndromedavV, 23 mars 2012 - 07:12 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

What they don't tell you is that when Liara melded minds with you, she took all of your memories and gave you hers and combined the two and downloaded them into her contraption. Then she took samples of your DNA and her DNA and preserved them with state of the art Asari tech and put them into that time capsule for the future. So now at some point just when the next reaping begins someone in the future discovers the time capsule and activates the DNA creating either you or Liara, and either of you will have the full memories of the two of you combined. That's what Liara has planned in case we fail, which we did. She's one to plan for the worst.

[CaptainZaysh]

VvAndromedavV wrote...

Granted, the cut scenes make it look like the Mass Relays didn't take out their respective systems for some unknown reason, but even if that were the case

It is obviously the case.

VvAndromedavV wrote...
there would be mass starvation due to the sudden lack of ability to feed all the people scattered about the galaxy---not to mention all the Turians and Quarians that came to the Sol System to help fight the Reapers who can't eat any of the food on Earth.

Yeah, everybody becoming isolated represents huge challenges for societies.  Colonies in utterly hostile worlds, supplied only through interstellar missions, are doomed.  That's very sad (but obviously not as sad as them all being killed by the Reapers along with everybody else).

The dextros stuck in Sol have an existential problem to face.  Their tools are FTL drives, liveships, and innovation.  I'd be fascinated to read a novel about how they faced it, but there would probably not be enough pew-pew in it to actually sell.

VvAndromedavV wrote...
I expected casualties but the way the ending stands now is just too bleak for me and although I love the Mass Effect series more than any other game the conclusion was so depressing that I don't ever want to touch the games again. I wish that were not the case, but it is. Why should I care about re-playing any of the games if the ending is basically "all the species that you ever met are now dead and/or starved to death but hey, the Reapers are gone."

That's not the ending.

[VvAndromedavV]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

VvAndromedavV wrote...

Granted, the cut scenes make it look like the Mass Relays didn't take out their respective systems for some unknown reason, but even if that were the case

It is obviously the case.

It should have been established in dialogue, then, instead of in a confusing cut-scene. Establishing that a Mass Relay explosion wipes out a system---and my Shepard was reminded multiple times in my playthrough that this exact thing killed 300,000 Batarians---and then later just assuming people will know that the ending explosions were different is sloppy.

Another reason why it should have been established in dialogue is because it seems like Shepard would want to know one way or the other if she's going to be wiping out all life in the galaxy before she decides to use the Crucible. My Shepard would want to know that first, at the very least.

Edited to add: this is from the Mass Effect Wiki Arrival entry: "If asked why destroying a Mass Relay would destroy the system, Kenson will say that they are the most powerful mass-effect engines in the galaxy and the energy released from destroying one would resemble a supernova."

So there you go, it's very simple, it's cannon: the energy released from destroying [a Mass Relay] would resemble a supernova---and yet for some unexplained reason we're supposed to understand that's not what the ending is supposed to mean because, uh, Joker and crew crash on some mysterious planet where EDI emerges even if you chose "destroy" and all synthetic life was allegedly terminated? Not to mention if you have low EMS you see your two squadmates dead on the ground in front of you in London but people have reported that after seeing a dead squadmate they later saw that same squadmate emerge from the Normandy after it crashes? I mean given all that is the ending scene even real?

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Yeah, everybody becoming isolated represents huge challenges for societies.  Colonies in utterly hostile worlds, supplied only through interstellar missions, are doomed.  That's very sad (but obviously not as sad as them all being killed by the Reapers along with everybody else).

The dextros stuck in Sol have an existential problem to face.  Their tools are FTL drives, liveships, and innovation.  I'd be fascinated to read a novel about how they faced it, but there would probably not be enough pew-pew in it to actually sell.

...

That's not the ending.

Not trying to pick a fight with you but perhaps you would care to explain how no Mass Relays doesn't result in mass starvation and the loss of most, if not all, of the humans and aliens in the Sol System? Mind you, Earth has been ravaged by the Reapers so it's in bad shape and resources are probably tight as it is without having an intergalactic fleet to feed...

Modifié par VvAndromedavV, 23 mars 2012 - 08:19 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Kmead15 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

111987 wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

It wouldn't be so bad if Space-Casper didn't say that "your children will create synthetics and the chaos will come back", that actually invalidates all your choices if you choose destroy.

Only if you believe him.

Exactly!  I didn't buy into his assertion so that's why I chose the Destroy ending.  You work with what you have and you can base your decision off of what you feel is best AND operating from the standpoint of buying into the synthetic inevitability or not.

You met a little glowing boy in the bowels a giant space station and didn't immediately accept everything he said was true? Why, that's just plain crazy.

I mean the fact that the Reapers exist and have been reaping for millions of years certainly gives him some credibility.  They were created in the first place for a reason.  Obviously their creators felt very strongly about this view that synthetics will ultimately destroy organics.  I'm sure they had their reasons.  But my Shepard had experienced things first hand with AI that brought this into question.  He felt that if there was even a question that it wasn't true, then the citizens of the Milky Way should be given a chance to forge their own path free of the Reapers' system of control.

When I look at a story I only try to factor in relevant information, you shouldn't ned that much speculation unless it's the very end of the story and it's meant to be ambiguous. To make the Starchild an unreliable entity at this point would be bad story telling. What if you find out near the end of ME1's coclusion that theVigil was an unreliable VI? It would just be bad.

Modifié par Dark_Caduceus, 23 mars 2012 - 08:15 .

[CaptainZaysh]

VvAndromedavV wrote...

It should have been established in dialogue, then, instead of in a confusing cut-scene. Establishing that a Mass Relay explosion wipes out a system---and my Shepard was reminded multiple times in my playthrough that this exact thing killed 300,000 Batarians---and then later just assuming people will know that the ending explosions were different is sloppy.

My guess is that this is what they'll expand upon in their revised ending.  Shep will get a dialogue option saying, wait, won't the relays destroy the solar systems they're in, and the Catalyst will explain no, dullstone, it won't.

VvAndromedavV wrote...
Not trying to pick a fight with you but perhaps you would care to explain how no Mass Relays doesn't result in mass starvation and the loss of most, if not all, of the humans and aliens in the Sol System? Mind you, Earth has been ravaged by the Reapers so it's in bad shape and resources are probably tight as it is without having an intergalactic fleet to feed...

Yeah.  Sol is an especially easy case for humans, since it's been feeding billions of the buggers for millennia.  Earth is clearly not totally devastated (witness central London, which looks in better shape than it would have if the Soviets had attacked it).  Reapers concentrated on population centres anyway, there's no indication I'm aware of that they targeted food production.

The intergalactic fleet is extra mouths to feed, although there are of course 1.87 million fewer mouths on Earth to feed per day since the Reapers started Reaping, so it might balance out to some degree.  The real challenge are the dextroes, but like I said they have liveships, FTL drives, and science.  It's too early to write them off entirely.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 23 mars 2012 - 08:20 .

[Hudathan]

Even if the game ended in a way where we literally detonated the entire galaxy and destroyed all advanced life alongside the Reapers, it still would have been an appropriate ending as far as the theme of the game is concerned for me. The game has always been about big ideas. The Reapers have been doing this for millions and most likely billions of years, something equally grand has to be done to restore the natural order of the galaxy. Anything less would actually be nonsensical in retrospect. The fact that our current cycle suffered greatly is still a better outcome than the alternative.

[mikelope]

Hudathan wrote...

Even if the game ended in a way where we literally detonated the entire galaxy and destroyed all advanced life alongside the Reapers, it still would have been an appropriate ending as far as the theme of the game is concerned for me. The game has always been about big ideas. The Reapers have been doing this for millions and most likely billions of years, something equally grand has to be done to restore the natural order of the galaxy. Anything less would actually be nonsensical in retrospect. The fact that our current cycle suffered greatly is still a better outcome than the alternative.

Very harsh but I agree.

[VvAndromedavV]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

My guess is that this is what they'll expand upon in their revised ending.  Shep will get a dialogue option saying, wait, won't the relays destroy the solar systems they're in, and the Catalyst will explain no, dullstone, it won't.

I just can't believe how big the oversight was in the first place, but I will be satisfied if they address it in the DLC or whatever they are planning to release.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Yeah.  Sol is an especially easy case for humans, since it's been feeding billions of the buggers for millennia. Earth is clearly not totally devastated (witness central London, which looks in better shape than it would have if the Soviets had attacked it).  Reapers concentrated on population centres anyway, there's no indication I'm aware of that they targeted food production.

The intergalactic fleet is extra mouths to feed, although there are of course 1.87 million fewer mouths on Earth to feed per day since the Reapers started Reaping, so it might balance out to some degree.  The real challenge are the dextroes, but like I said they have liveships, FTL drives, and science.  It's too early to write them off entirely.

Your interpretation is completely valid and possible but so is a scenario where there's mass starvation.

Yes, the dextroes have liveships, FTL drives, and science, but there's only so much you can do to sustain your species when you can never re-stock again.

It's all open to speculation which is another reason why I was not satisfied with the ending. I don't need to see every last thing that happens after Shepard ends the Reaper threat but personally I'd like a bit more concrete evidence to show me that my crew will be okay and there will not be mass starvation.

That being said my husband was compeltely satisfied with the endings and it seems you were as well and that's completely fine. For me the destruction of all the Mass Relays is too high of a price but at the same time I see what they were going for as the Mass Relays are Reaper technology and the Reapers even told Shepard at one point, "We allow you to use the Mass Relays so you will develop according to our plans" or something to that effect.

[Grasich]

Hudathan wrote...

Even if the game ended in a way where we literally detonated the entire galaxy and destroyed all advanced life alongside the Reapers, it still would have been an appropriate ending as far as the theme of the game is concerned for me. The game has always been about big ideas. The Reapers have been doing this for millions and most likely billions of years, something equally grand has to be done to restore the natural order of the galaxy. Anything less would actually be nonsensical in retrospect. The fact that our current cycle suffered greatly is still a better outcome than the alternative.

Which is why you should be allowed to have an ending like what we got. However, why should the rest of us not be allowed to have an ending that WE want? It's a game, after all.

[Thorn Harvestar]

I can stomach a "galactic dark age" ending, but do they need to strand the Normandy, your crew and your loved one on a foreign planet as well in EVERY ending? That's just cold

[VvAndromedavV]

mikelope wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Even if the game ended in a way where we literally detonated the entire galaxy and destroyed all advanced life alongside the Reapers, it still would have been an appropriate ending as far as the theme of the game is concerned for me. The game has always been about big ideas. The Reapers have been doing this for millions and most likely billions of years, something equally grand has to be done to restore the natural order of the galaxy. Anything less would actually be nonsensical in retrospect. The fact that our current cycle suffered greatly is still a better outcome than the alternative.

Very harsh but I agree.

My husband says the same thing. I can see that perspective.

It's too harsh for me, though; I expected the costs to be high but if the real cost is all advanced life is destroyed that's bleak enough that I personally never want to play the games ever again.

Not sure that's what they were going for but it's a valid interpretation based on established cannon.

[CaptainZaysh]

VvAndromedavV wrote...

Edited to add: this is from the Mass Effect Wiki Arrival entry: "If asked why destroying a Mass Relay would destroy the system, Kenson will say that they are the most powerful mass-effect engines in the galaxy and the energy released from destroying one would resemble a supernova."

So there you go, it's very simple, it's cannon:

Argh.  Pet hate.  I'm choosing to believe that's a typo.

VvAndromedavV wrote...
the energy released from destroying [a Mass Relay] would resemble a supernova[/i]---and yet for some unexplained reason we're supposed to understand that's not what the ending is supposed to mean

If you watch the ending it's quite plain to see that the relay discharges its energy before being destroyed.  It stands to reason that less energy = smaller explosion, right?

But even if that weren't the case, it is a shame that the audience can't be relied upon to accept that "smashing a huge asteroid into a relay" would likely cause different results from "destroying the relay via an energy pulse released from the central control unit of the network".  What I've learned from this is that, in future, BioWare games will handhold us through everything.  No more can we be relied upon to act with the sophistication of a movie audience - we are all dumb grognards who can't eat anything that we are not spoon fed.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 23 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[Scyldemort]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

It wouldn't be so bad if Space-Casper didn't say that "your children will create synthetics and the chaos will come back", that actually invalidates all your choices if you choose destroy.

I think we've already established that Space-Casper is a moron who has no idea what he's talking about.

[Jonathan Shepard]

SwobyJ wrote...

It's reasonable, but not at ALL how they show it. There is no actual conclusion, no resolution. It's missing at least 5-10 hours' worth in fact.

5 to 10? Maybe 2 or 3, but really, it's just explanation at the endings of what exactly the Crucible/Catalyst is. It's a shame they cut out the history of the Reapers. I can't believe Mac didn't think anyone would care about that! And some sort of epilogue would be nice.

[Lmaoboat]

Luc0s wrote...

Achire wrote...

Shepard! The relays are going... the relays are going black. Shepard! No more Mass Relays; interstellar travel of any kind. We'll start start again. Live in villages. If you receive this, if you survive, then find us! Find us!

This sounds familiar. Where is this from?

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Lmaoboat, 23 mars 2012 - 08:41 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Luc0s wrote...

Achire wrote...

Shepard! The relays are going... the relays are going black. Shepard! No more Mass Relays; interstellar travel of any kind. We'll start start again. Live in villages. If you receive this, if you survive, then find us! Find us!

This sounds familiar. Where is this from?

JC's brother, right?  From the original Deus Ex?

[CaptainZaysh]

Scyldemort wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

It wouldn't be so bad if Space-Casper didn't say that "your children will create synthetics and the chaos will come back", that actually invalidates all your choices if you choose destroy.

I think we've already established that Space-Casper is a moron who has no idea what he's talking about.

No, the Catalyst is right.  Given enough time, one day our descendants will create synthetics that rebel, and we will war against them.  If you accept that then you accept that, given enough wars, organics will lose one of them.

And then...no more organics, because our children won't have the Reapers to sweep in and reset everything.

EDIT: that didn't stop me destroying the Reapers, though.  My descendants can be free to f**k up the galaxy on their own, thank you very much.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 23 mars 2012 - 08:45 .

[FortitudeSon]

It's not a bad idea in principle, the issue is that the whole Mass Effect universe is so wrapped in with the existence of the mass relays that to destroy them leaves way too much up to speculation, dismissing the pipe dream that this is a good way to end any trilogy.  The grandpa-grandson scene is just insulting and cliche.

Furthermore, it undoes the characters we've come to love.  Wrex will never see his kids, Tali will never see her homeworld again (and will starve to death on planet gilligan's isle) Garrus will never know what happened to Shepard (and will starve to death on planet gilligan's isle), Joker will die when his meds run out on planet gilligan's isle, Liara will never write that book with Javik, and Javik will never be able to complete his wish to be at rest with his soldiers.  It's just way too bleak and leaves no closure.

On top of this, the galactic armada is doomed to mass starvation or infighting - this is particularly bad news for the Quarians and Turians, who will never see their homeworlds rebuilt and are, yet again, going to starve to death.

If they could close all those gaps, and made it ONE of SEVERAL possible endings, then it would be acceptable.  

Modifié par FortitudeSon, 23 mars 2012 - 08:48 .

[VvAndromedavV]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Argh. Pet hate. I'm choosing to believe that's a typo.

Yes, I meant "canon" and it was a typo. I'm human and I'm not perfect.

Secretly it was not a typo and I did it just to get under your skin.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

If you watch the ending it's quite plain to see that the relay discharges its energy before being destroyed. It stands to reason that less energy = smaller explosion, right?

But even if that weren't the case, it is a shame that the audience can't be relied upon to accept that "smashing a huge asteroid into a relay" would likely cause different results from "destroying the relay via an energy pulse released from the central control unit of the network". What I've learned from this is that, in future, BioWare games will handhold us through everything. No more can we be relied upon to act with the sophistication of a movie audience - we are all dumb grognards who can't eat anything that we are not spoon fed.

Well it's the way it's phrased that causes the problem as it's stated that "the energy released from destroying one" is the issue---not the way it's destroyed.

How can you tell for sure that the energy is being discharged first? What I thought I was watching was just the energy from the Crucible being shot from relay to relay.

Here is a video of the Mass Relay explosion in Arrival: . Compare that to the explosions at the end of ME3 and you can see that the explosion itself is basically the same exact animation (save for the color) and yet the audience is supposed to think the consequences are different?

Personally I don't think it's spoon-feeding or hand-holding, but rather good and consistent writing, to establish in dialogue that "the energy released from destroying [a Mass Relay]" will not wipe out the system even though it was previously established that it, in fact, would---and not because you're using an asteroid but simply due to it being destroyed.

And with oversights like Joker with brittle bone disease surviving a crash completely unscathed, EDI emerging from the Normandy when you choose "destroy", or dead squadmates emerging from the Normandy it's hard for me to know whether the ending cutscene was even supposed to be real or not.

[webhead921]

Kashola wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

It wouldn't be so bad if Space-Casper didn't say that "your children will create synthetics and the chaos will come back", that actually invalidates all your choices if you choose destroy.

Yeah well, Space-Casper is an idiot, because in my game the Geth and Quarians worked together.  Not to mention the robosexual Joker.

Truth!

[lockdown51]

So that in the the grim darkness of the 2nd millennium there is ME4? Is Shepard the Emperor now or a Space Marine since he was rebuilt and technically a marine, in space... Is that what the entire Crucible was trying to set up?

[synthevol]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Kmead15 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

111987 wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

It wouldn't be so bad if Space-Casper didn't say that "your children will create synthetics and the chaos will come back", that actually invalidates all your choices if you choose destroy.

Only if you believe him.

Exactly!  I didn't buy into his assertion so that's why I chose the Destroy ending.  You work with what you have and you can base your decision off of what you feel is best AND operating from the standpoint of buying into the synthetic inevitability or not.

You met a little glowing boy in the bowels a giant space station and didn't immediately accept everything he said was true? Why, that's just plain crazy.

I mean the fact that the Reapers exist and have been reaping for millions of years certainly gives him some credibility.  They were created in the first place for a reason.  Obviously their creators felt very strongly about this view that synthetics will ultimately destroy organics.  I'm sure they had their reasons.  But my Shepard had experienced things first hand with AI that brought this into question.  He felt that if there was even a question that it wasn't true, then the citizens of the Milky Way should be given a chance to forge their own path free of the Reapers' system of control.

The reapers only had one Creator and that is the Citadel, who choose the image of the boy to communicate with Shepard. Personally I find the fact that the Citadel choose a child as an image very sinister and deceitful considering how most species especially humans view kids.