429 réponses à ce sujet

[Montana]

Yalision wrote...

If I wanted to destroy Star Wars or Star Trek as profitable universes, I would go about removing the possibility of intergalactic travel. Voila! Cash cow brutally murdered! And as an added bonus, fans have been utterly alienated! Awesome.

[kotli]

The big problem is IMO the mass relay explosions = every solar system with a mass relay gets blown up and that most of the Galaxy based on the universe explosions cinematic. As far as we know only a very small % of stars/systems surive, and of these life surporting ones will be even smaller. (It may be that the only one left is the Normandy crash site)

Even worse than that is the possibility that it travels through the Citadel relay into over galaxies in the universe, in which case congratulations you just wiped out the entire universe. After all this relay leads somewhere that keeps the reapers busy for 50,000 years, the only thing that makes sense is they reap the entire universe.

Modifié par kotli, 23 mars 2012 - 12:58 .

[The Lightspeaker]

Tregon wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Human civilization existed for centuries before the Relays were discovered. Likewise for every other species.

A galactic-scale civilization cannot exist for the time being. But individual civilzations can. 

There will be pain, and there will be suffering. A war against the Reapers shouldn't be something you get over in a few decades. 

Human civilization centuries before relays were discovered did not rely extremely heavily on relay based transit.
At point of ME3, human civilization (and all other known civilizations more or less) live and die with relay transit.

Go back couple centuries and our human civilization lived just fine without combustion engine and electricity.
Take them away now, and our society collapses totally.

Regression would be more harsh than to point of invention of combustion engine and electricity, it would throw us back good centuries as we rely so heavily on those two inventions.

This. You can't compare pre-interstellar travel times to the effects of suddenly taking interstellar travel away from a galaxy reliant on it. Its the same way that the modern world relies on transport networks such as road, rail and aircraft.

Hell theres even an in-universe example of what would happen in almost every world: look at the Drell. Their planet bled dry and led to massive wars. Pretty much every world in Mass Effect now relies on every other to keep functioning. And they're all connected through the gates.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The Lightspeaker wrote...

Survival is not "living".

Isn't it?

No, it isn't. Theres more to life than being alive.

[Adanu]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Destroying the relays is NOT a worse alternative to total annihilation. The whole game was dark and depressive, with literally every single character in the game facing destruction. The only slimmer of hope was that a mysterious device of immense power can do something epic enough to stop the Reapers. All of this was woven into the entire third game, they did not 'change the tone' of the game in the ending. Fighting the Reapers was not going to be like blowing up Harbinger's lackies and the game makes this painfully clear right from the get go.

You said it.

I have no idea how no one noticed this. In fact Hackett point blank says they have no hope of winning the final fight just before the final fight.

He also says he's prepared to fight the Reaper's conventionally if the Crucible fails.

There's enough a convincing case to believe you at least have a chance. 

What's the two things that the Reapers have always used that ensures their victory? The element of surprise, and the separation of the current civilization into smaller, easier to defeat, chunks, without the ability to coordinate or even communicate wtih each other. 

Neither of these things occur in this cycle. They can take out Earth, and Thessia, and Palaven, and Sur'Kesh, and Tuchanka, and the Migrant Fleet, and Rannoch, individually. 

But all together? We have a chance, because it's us fighting conventionally that makes the Reapers change their tactics. They've been wrong footed.

Regardless, a lot of people would prefer that we go out fighting because we choose to rather than have our fates imposed by a from the left field star kid with broken logic, and who's actual pressence and reveal mean we can end the cycle by destroying the Citadel. 

Fate against free-will, hope against inevitbillity, unity against separation. 

Themes key to the Mass Effect series are discarded. It's not a tragic, bittersweet, or fatalistic setting. It's optimistic despite the odds because of Shepard. 
Dark is fine, I'd be happy with everyone dead with civilization surviving by the skin of their collective teeth, with Shepard dead and the fleet and Earth utterly destroyed. That's dark, but civilization survives. 

The fact that no matter what happens, civilization is over, is needlessly dark in a setting with themes and tone which doesn't support it. 

Hackett is willing to do as much damage to the Reaper fleet so the next cycle can have a better chance should the Crucible fail. GOing out in a blaze of glory is not the same as having a chance in hell of defeating the fleet. of Reapers.

[anlk92]

Actually I would be perfectly fine with the destruction of Mass Relays if:

-it was stated clearly that their destruction wouldn't cause a supernova and why
-Shepard could warn the fleet that he's about to initiate a galactic dark age and then Alliance could guard the Crucible while the rest retreated to their home systems
-the whole thing was not done in 2-3 minutes, seriously if youre're going to do something this big you have to set it up, let people see how it plays out
-we were given a hint at the possibility of developing a new way of travel in the reasonably close future
-they didn't randomly strand half of the characters, why would anyone end a story like that?

[General User]

Madecologist wrote...

Asuka Bianchini wrote...

[Won't happen.
The stargazer scene is 10,000 years after ME3's ending, and the stargazer says space travel is not possible still...

The Stargazer scenes happens on the same planet that Joker crashed on... right? So then... you do know that the crew of the Normandy does not constitute a proper MVP for humans. So technically speaking... the 'colony' the survivors of the Normandy will create will die off and in 10K years you will just have remains of a failed human society.

((MVP, Minimal viable population, term used to represent how many creatures you need in a population so that it becomes viable and will survive 'indefinately'.))

Does it not?  I've heard of wildlife conservation projects that have reestablished viable populations of endangered species from populations as low as thirty individuals.  Such a low population is certainly incompatible with accepted and/or modern cultural practices and norms; ie, for several generations at least, every female capable of breeding would have to bare multiple children sired by several different males, and the breeding lines and pedigrees would have to be carefully tracked and managed.  If this is done (and with a little luck I'll admit) it might be possible to reestablish a viable population. 

And, of course even that assumes that no one will follow and find the Normandy.  Which I think is highly unlikely.  The planet the Normandy crashed on must be fairly close to Earth since Joker was only in FTL for a brief period.  Someone is going to find it, sooner rather than later.

And besides, even that assumes that the planet Joker crashed on doesn't already have a human population residing on it.  I don't think we can guarantee that it doesn't, since the only garden world that we know about within short range FTL of Earth does indeed have a small, but well established, human population.

[Lugaidster]

Lili77 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

I think a galactic dark age is both
grim and beautiful, bitter-sweet if you will. If the crucible offered
better choices, it would be an acceptable outcome.

Agree although beautiful or bitter-sweet is very subjective. A matter of taste.

I only refer to it as beautiful refering to Legion's speech that species should fight for their future valuing the journey as much as the result (the reason they didn't join the reapers). If you agree with that, then destroying the reapers and anything associated with them "guiding our future" is beautiful however dark the consequences. I think that's the message they tried to convey, but failed in execution.

[Poison_Berrie]

Adanu wrote...

This much I can understand, and if you don't remember I apologize.

As it is, you had an army around you helping. YOu didn't do it alone.

Actually I think he was talking about that AA-gun Reaper. It's destroyed with a Single CAIN.
So it depends on a Reaper to Reaper basis.

Tregon wrote...

Assuming they have ability to build spare parts or completely new agricultural machines one way or another.

Else they regress to horse and plough society, scavenging old failed machinery for metal.

If they support colonies too, they need infrastructure for fuel for spaceships and making spare parts for them too.

I know I know... Taking into account need for maintenance of existing tech takes all fun out of survival scenarios. 

True, but I'd assume a surviving garden-world would have the fuel infrastructure intact. If you have a colony, you have fueling and discharging and servicing stations. The industry available would be important of course.
The real problem would be Eezo. Since that's a lot rarer than fusion or ion engine fuel, you either need large Eezo stores or be lucky to have an rich planet(oid) close enough. Either way you'll need to ration your supplies.

[Tregon]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
True, but I'd assume a surviving garden-world would have the fuel infrastructure intact. If you have a colony, you have fueling and discharging and servicing stations. The industry available would be important of course.
The real problem would be Eezo. Since that's a lot rarer than fusion or ion engine fuel, you either need large Eezo stores or be lucky to have an rich planet(oid) close enough. Either way you'll need to ration your supplies.

But do they have refineries AND raw materials for fuel? Their refuelling stations might simply be fuel depots which are topped up by tankers periodically...

Also, not all colonies necessarily have refueling and starship maintenance facilities. And even if they had, it's again question of how long their spare part supply would last... 

We have to remember that even if they have minerals to mine, they need equipment to mine it. And refine it. And then refine it into tools used to build machines used to build parts and tools and...

Well, everyone can imagine what you need before you mine one ton of iron out of mine, and how you first have to build everything required to mine that ton (which also require resources) and facilities to refine them.

In short, the logistical and refining tail required for a wrench is VERY long. Which means most likely garden world colony won't have it. Which means...

Horses and ploughs.

[savionen]

Option C) Use Thanix cannons on all ships and not have to use the Crucible.

[Killer3000ad]

Yalision wrote...

If I wanted to destroy Star Wars or Star Trek as profitable universes, I would go about removing the possibility of intergalactic travel. Voila! Cash cow brutally murdered! And as an added bonus, fans have been utterly alienated! Awesome.

[Valdimier]

If this was their original intention in the beginning, I would say that they had a great ending for the wrong franchise.

You don´t come up with stuff like that, when....

...you advertise the game like the next Transformer Movie
...you have stupid ninja like enemies that look like some "The Matrix" rejects.
...you put in some multiplayer action where you only have to fight wave after wave off enemies.
...you put in extra gore effects just for kicks.

You do this stuff clearly to advertise the game to a broader audience and then you can`t complain when nearly nobody get´s the ending. Also when you only took the last 3 minutes to explain it to them.

And that also don`t explain the plot holes at the end.

[Vikali]

Chk-2000 wrote...

Cheesy Blue wrote...

Their isn't really any other option. As of right now, it's either use the Crucible or die. A galactic dark age sucks but it's the hand we have been dealt.

There's an option to not use the Crucible? Where?

If you derp around, the crew defending the crucible dies and you lose.

Modifié par Vikali, 23 mars 2012 - 01:39 .

[BDelacroix]

Biotic Sage wrote...

rma2110 wrote...

So it will become Fallout Effect 4? A post apocalyptic setting just wouldn't feel like Mass Effect.

You know, a sequel doesn't have to take place a year or two after the original movie.

The next Mass Effect game could be thousands of years in the future.  Hundreds of thousands.  The possibilities are endless.

Continuing on their trend started with ME3, then it would be like a Canticle for Leibowitz.

[Valdimier]

BDelacroix wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

rma2110 wrote...

So it will become Fallout Effect 4? A post apocalyptic setting just wouldn't feel like Mass Effect.

You know, a sequel doesn't have to take place a year or two after the original movie.

The next Mass Effect game could be thousands of years in the future.  Hundreds of thousands.  The possibilities are endless.

Continuing on their trend started with ME3, then it would be like a Canticle for Leibowitz.

Or they are using the most overused words in the movie business. "Reboot" or "Prequel"

[count_4]

majormajormmajor wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

Relays can be rebuild

And you know this how? Everything in the game points to this being unlikely. And even if they can be rebuilt, it's going to take time that civilization doesn't have.

Well, Aethyta tried to convice the Asari government to try building their own Mass Relay, so it must at least seem somewhat feasable. 
Sure, with the galaxy in ruins it's unlikely to ever happen, but it should be possible.

Lugaidster wrote...
Agree completely. There's this quote from Mordin that I've been using to illustrate that exact same idea:

"Hard to imagine galaxy. Too many people. Faceless. Statistics. Easy to depersonalize. [...] For this fight, want personal connection. Can't anthropomorphize galaxy. But can think of favorite [people]. Fighting for [them]." 

 

Great quote indeed. 

Modifié par count_4, 23 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[Valdimier]

Also, this whole "We have to start a new civilization after our spaceship crashed" is clearly a rippoff of the Darkover saga from Marion Zimmer Bradley.

[Jonttu1]

kotli wrote...

The big problem is IMO the mass relay explosions = every solar system with a mass relay gets blown up and that most of the Galaxy based on the universe explosions cinematic. As far as we know only a very small % of stars/systems surive, and of these life surporting ones will be even smaller. (It may be that the only one left is the Normandy crash site)

Even worse than that is the possibility that it travels through the Citadel relay into over galaxies in the universe, in which case congratulations you just wiped out the entire universe. After all this relay leads somewhere that keeps the reapers busy for 50,000 years, the only thing that makes sense is they reap the entire universe.

Wherever the normandy crashed, the wave that hit the normandy should have hit the planet too and the planets still there so why wouldn't the rest? And reapers hibernate in dark space. 50 000 years isn't anywhere near enough time to reap the entire universe, not even a few galaxies

[Strike2k2]

The Option to fight rather than submit has been a common theme in all the games, up until the last 10 minutes of the game. Unacceptable.

[Sidney]

anlk92 wrote...

Actually I would be perfectly fine with the destruction of Mass Relays if:

-it was stated clearly that their destruction wouldn't cause a supernova and why
-Shepard could warn the fleet that he's about to initiate a galactic dark age and then Alliance could guard the Crucible while the rest retreated to their home systems
-the whole thing was not done in 2-3 minutes, seriously if youre're going to do something this big you have to set it up, let people see how it plays out
-we were given a hint at the possibility of developing a new way of travel in the reasonably close future
-they didn't randomly strand half of the characters, why would anyone end a story like that?

The first 3 I'm on board with and the 5th - although in fairness I thought it was clear that the use and consumption of the relays wasn't going to cause an Arrival type *boom*. I don't need that "happy" we can rebuild the relays or something like them.

Losing the relays will be catastrophic economically and socially. Ioslated popuations in non-garden worlds and stations will starve surely. The main homeworlds and colonies won't all die off.  This is very similar to the end of the Roman Empire which was heavily linked, had a (for the time) efficient transportation network and central adminsitration. You break that down and alot of bad things happen but survival also happens.

[ShinAnubisXIII]

The price was too high in my opinion. With the relays destroyed, the whole Mass Effect franchise is in ruins without any hopes of recover. Building a new Relay network would most likely have to be a joint effort of the galactic races but that's almost impossible since everyone is isolated now.

[Xandax]

It's the reason many have said that 'their Shepard' woudln't accept the Star-God-Ghost-Child's premise.

It does not make sense that Shepard willingly would throw the entire universe into that sort of chaos and suffering to stop the Reapers.
ME1 and ME2 alone is a testament to that defiance.

It just goes to show how bad Bioware really screwed up the story and their setting. Terrible.

Modifié par Xandax, 23 mars 2012 - 01:52 .

[Sidney]

Strike2k2 wrote...

The Option to fight rather than submit has been a common theme in all the games, up until the last 10 minutes of the game. Unacceptable.

...but this is what you've fought for - a chance to stop the Reapers. You've succeeded. There is no submission here. Your options would have been the same if the Starchild wasn't there telling you what to do. What if Vigil had popped up and said the Protheans had concieved of three ways to wipe out the Reapers: A,B, C. Same thing - actually that would make more sense since the protheans would ahve build those options in an I have no idea when/why star child built in the ABC options.

[Strike2k2]

kotli wrote...

50 000 years isn't anywhere near enough time to reap the entire universe, not even a few galaxies

It is if there are mass relays planted in the other galaxies as well. Remember, they are only killing advanced civilizations. I'm sure most civilizations kill themselves off before reaching that point making the Reaper's job even easier.

[Taleroth]

Sidney wrote...

...but this is what you've fought for - a chance to stop the Reapers.

It's only part of what Shepard fought for.