575 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirranek]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Can't say I'm even suprised...

Part 1:
-50k people voted on a poll that they don't like the endings. We are a MAJORITY'
-Well, the sampling method is wrong, you can't deduct this for a 2 million userbase.
-But the numbers are high, we are majority, you are an idiot and go away troll.

Part 2:
-A high number of people requested refund from CP
-You don't know **** OP, that's clearly a small minority, just a few people, you are an idiot and a troll.

Part1a:
-Hi, I'm random BW employee talking about PR stuff.
-You should die, I will burn your yard with a flamethrower, you will pay for the sins of one storywriter, all BW is the devil!

Part2a:
-How can you brand the whole movement because a few people apparently asked for refunds?

Part1b:
-Random talk about MP content
-But the ending sucked
-Please take it to the story/game forum
-Gaaaah, this is the freedom of expression, you will die you stupid troll

Part2b:
-Info about CP refunds, possibility for a few guys with actual moral standards to make reparations based on this.
-This is clearly off topic, I hope you die, you are trolling us and lying.

If I ever would like to write an essay on hypocrisy, the Retake movement would be the main hero...

Yup. That pretty much sums up my problem with the way a lot of discussions/arguments end up atm. Most frustrating <_<

[Dridengx]

Computron2000 wrote...

As for the link noted in the first post, no numbers are given nor any actual data. As most children will notice, "many", "several", "a lot", etc have no actual meaning as it is subjective. "Many" for you might be 3, but "many" for me might be a hundred.

if you went to school you would know many has NEVER been three. Three is a few. 7 is several. and so on. MANY means a lot. ever heard the term "Many soldiers return home" etc

And to base this as a number we have to calculate how many actually gave to the charity and use that number against the word many.. Many being less than half otherwise it would have been stated. Many could be any number but it sure ain't a minority when Child's Play said "High" number... high is greater than half. Majority is 6-7ish, 8 is leaning towards High. High could be 80% so we can't say other than knowing they said HIGH and high is never a small number lol

[Tazzmission]

xeNNN wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

gudman wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

so wait you think using sick children is a good thing to get a ending?

do you have any idea on how selfish that is?

Using - it's when you grab that sick kid by the scruff and wave him around yelling: DO WHAT I SAY OR I'LL BREAK HIS NECK! If I give said kid money for whatever reason I may have - hey, I still helped him. No matter the intention. 

actually to use isnt that btw


1. To put into service or apply for a purpose; employ.2. To avail oneself of; practice: use caution.3. To conduct oneself toward; treat or handle: "the peace offering of a man who once used you unkindly"(Laurence Sterne).

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................
4. To seek or achieve an end by means of; exploit:

^this defines the take back movment seeing as they have always stated lets add more pressure to bioware
................................................................................................................................................................................................

k now thats annoyed me......... your directly attacking A TON of people now who you cannot for any reason know every single one of those persons intentions behind donating. you expect hat with around about 50,000 odd people there is not going to be a small group of morons...... you get this with every movement, those the state you made would work in terms of applying pressure to bioware through forum use and other forms, charity however isnt a fair arguement as A LOT OF US did it for a positive reason, to turn a negative into a positive, even if we dont get anything out of this movement atleast someone who deservers it will, the fact that you use that definition in order to slam the entire movement simply because of a few individuals acting like childish morons is appauling and insulting. 

nobody who is truely behind the retake mass effect movement would ask for there money back or do anything to jepordise anything for the movement or the people we have helped. 

so dont spout your hollier than thou crap down our throats simply because a "group" of indivduals have been acting like jerks.

maybe if you go a page or 2 back you would see that i did in fact aplogize to those who dont support the people who demand a refund


ps. if i call you a jerk trust me you would know because i would flat out just say it and i havent so far so dont twist my words around

[Clayless]

How people can argue against this whole movement being labled as whiney entitled brats is beyond me.

Look, so much people asked for their money back from CHARITY that the charity had to close it's doors to new donations. That's how entitled they are.

[HenchxNarf]

DESTRAUDO wrote...
Tell that to the people turning on penny arcade.

I know. But there is no reason for it. It's not some great conspiracy. It's definately not PA/CP's fault.

[Kanon777]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Can't say I'm even suprised...

Part 1:
-50k people voted on a poll that they don't like the endings. We are a MAJORITY'
-Well, the sampling method is wrong, you can't deduct this for a 2 million userbase.
-But the numbers are high, we are majority, you are an idiot and go away troll.

Part 2:
-A high number of people requested refund from CP
-You don't know **** OP, that's clearly a small minority, just a few people, you are an idiot and a troll.

Part1a:
-Hi, I'm random BW employee talking about PR stuff.
-You should die, I will burn your yard with a flamethrower, you will pay for the sins of one storywriter, all BW is the devil!

Part2a:
-How can you brand the whole movement because a few people apparently asked for refunds?

Part1b:
-Random talk about MP content
-But the ending sucked
-Please take it to the story/game forum
-Gaaaah, this is the freedom of expression, you will die you stupid troll

Part2b:
-Info about CP refunds, possibility for a few guys with actual moral standards to make reparations based on this.
-This is clearly off topic, I hope you die, you are trolling us and lying.

If I ever would like to write an essay on hypocrisy, the Retake movement would be the main hero...

OMG I wish i could make this my signature :wizard::wizard:

[Dridengx]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Can't say I'm even suprised...

Part 1:
-50k people voted on a poll that they don't like the endings. We are a MAJORITY'
-Well, the sampling method is wrong, you can't deduct this for a 2 million userbase.
-But the numbers are high, we are majority, you are an idiot and go away troll.

Part 2:
-A high number of people requested refund from CP
-You don't know **** OP, that's clearly a small minority, just a few people, you are an idiot and a troll.

Part1a:
-Hi, I'm random BW employee talking about PR stuff.
-You should die, I will burn your yard with a flamethrower, you will pay for the sins of one storywriter, all BW is the devil!

Part2a:
-How can you brand the whole movement because a few people apparently asked for refunds?

Part1b:
-Random talk about MP content
-But the ending sucked
-Please take it to the story/game forum
-Gaaaah, this is the freedom of expression, you will die you stupid troll

Part2b:
-Info about CP refunds, possibility for a few guys with actual moral standards to make reparations based on this.
-This is clearly off topic, I hope you die, you are trolling us and lying.

If I ever would like to write an essay on hypocrisy, the Retake movement would be the main hero...

logic you has it

[HenchxNarf]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Can't say I'm even suprised...

Part 1:
-50k people voted on a poll that they don't like the endings. We are a MAJORITY'
-Well, the sampling method is wrong, you can't deduct this for a 2 million userbase.
-But the numbers are high, we are majority, you are an idiot and go away troll.

Part 2:
-A high number of people requested refund from CP
-You don't know **** OP, that's clearly a small minority, just a few people, you are an idiot and a troll.

Part1a:
-Hi, I'm random BW employee talking about PR stuff.
-You should die, I will burn your yard with a flamethrower, you will pay for the sins of one storywriter, all BW is the devil!

Part2a:
-How can you brand the whole movement because a few people apparently asked for refunds?

Part1b:
-Random talk about MP content
-But the ending sucked
-Please take it to the story/game forum
-Gaaaah, this is the freedom of expression, you will die you stupid troll

Part2b:
-Info about CP refunds, possibility for a few guys with actual moral standards to make reparations based on this.
-This is clearly off topic, I hope you die, you are trolling us and lying.

If I ever would like to write an essay on hypocrisy, the Retake movement would be the main hero...

Oh, sweet buttery Jesus. Someone has logic!

[Rencor2k]

How can you even demand your money back when you DONATED them?

[Kulthar Drax]

HenchxNarf wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Retake need to accept that they cannot regulate their membership any more than anonymous does. For better or worse a percentage of the people who are part of retake are scumbags. I would wager it is a similar percentage to a random population sample.

At the same time, I find it just as disturbing and despicable that people in said movement are not turning on Penny Arcade. Conspiracies are already starting to flow, hate topics already starting to appear, names already starting to be called, referring to them as 'bald' and 'pig like' for example.

This juvenile attitude is going to smear your efforts in the long run just as much as the people demanding charity refunds.

Again, there is no reason to turn on Penny Arcade.

Hold on, isn't the Child's Play charity run by one of the guys at Penny Arcade? I don't know if this is accurate, just what I read somewhere. If this is the case, then we can hardly take anything Penny Arcade says with any reliability anyway, since it is a massive conflict of interest (considering Penny Arcade has been pretty hostile to Retake).

But if people have really been demanding their money back, shame on you. I donated and as far as I am concerned, we still did good regardless of the outcome. We helped some sick kids by raising over $80,000 and anyone should be proud of that and nobody can take this achievement away from us.

[HenchxNarf]

Kulthar Drax wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Retake need to accept that they cannot regulate their membership any more than anonymous does. For better or worse a percentage of the people who are part of retake are scumbags. I would wager it is a similar percentage to a random population sample.

At the same time, I find it just as disturbing and despicable that people in said movement are not turning on Penny Arcade. Conspiracies are already starting to flow, hate topics already starting to appear, names already starting to be called, referring to them as 'bald' and 'pig like' for example.

This juvenile attitude is going to smear your efforts in the long run just as much as the people demanding charity refunds.

Again, there is no reason to turn on Penny Arcade.

Hold on, isn't the Child's Play charity run by one of the guys at Penny Arcade? I don't know if this is accurate, just what I read somewhere. If this is the case, then we can hardly take anything Penny Arcade says with any reliability anyway, since it is a massive conflict of interest (considering Penny Arcade has been pretty hostile to Retake).

But if people have really been demanding their money back, shame on you. I donated and as far as I am concerned, we still did good regardless of the outcome. We helped some sick kids by raising over $80,000 and anyone should be proud of that and nobody can take this achievement away from us.

Again, Penny Arcade created/founded/thought up Child's Play.

They haven't been hostile. They just don't agree with the movement. There is a difference. However what PA says has no real relation to CP as a whole.

Modifié par HenchxNarf, 23 mars 2012 - 12:26 .

[xeNNN]

Tazzmission wrote...

xeNNN wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

gudman wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

so wait you think using sick children is a good thing to get a ending?

do you have any idea on how selfish that is?

Using - it's when you grab that sick kid by the scruff and wave him around yelling: DO WHAT I SAY OR I'LL BREAK HIS NECK! If I give said kid money for whatever reason I may have - hey, I still helped him. No matter the intention. 

actually to use isnt that btw


1. To put into service or apply for a purpose; employ.2. To avail oneself of; practice: use caution.3. To conduct oneself toward; treat or handle: "the peace offering of a man who once used you unkindly"(Laurence Sterne).

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................
4. To seek or achieve an end by means of; exploit:

^this defines the take back movment seeing as they have always stated lets add more pressure to bioware
................................................................................................................................................................................................

k now thats annoyed me......... your directly attacking A TON of people now who you cannot for any reason know every single one of those persons intentions behind donating. you expect hat with around about 50,000 odd people there is not going to be a small group of morons...... you get this with every movement, those the state you made would work in terms of applying pressure to bioware through forum use and other forms, charity however isnt a fair arguement as A LOT OF US did it for a positive reason, to turn a negative into a positive, even if we dont get anything out of this movement atleast someone who deservers it will, the fact that you use that definition in order to slam the entire movement simply because of a few individuals acting like childish morons is appauling and insulting. 

nobody who is truely behind the retake mass effect movement would ask for there money back or do anything to jepordise anything for the movement or the people we have helped. 

so dont spout your hollier than thou crap down our throats simply because a "group" of indivduals have been acting like jerks.

maybe if you go a page or 2 back you would see that i did in fact aplogize to those who dont support the people who demand a refund


ps. if i call you a jerk trust me you would know because i would flat out just say it and i havent so far so dont twist my words around

actually you just twisted my words. i never said you called anyone a jerk i said they were acting like jerks. 

and i appologise i didnt see your reply/comment on that. 

this whole things just annoyed me though, so many people that are pathetic its unbelievable. 

just like i said dont generalise us ( i know you dont do it intentionally) but thats how your comments come across is all.

[Dridengx]

Kulthar Drax wrote...

Hold on, isn't the Child's Play charity run by one of the guys at Penny Arcade? I don't know if this is accurate, just what I read somewhere. If this is the case, then we can hardly take anything Penny Arcade says with any reliability anyway, since it is a massive conflict of interest (considering Penny Arcade has been pretty hostile to Retake).

Hostile? really? I've been here the whole time and never heard them say anything but do a comic that was neutral. Destructiod, Kotaku, IGN, and many others have been cracking jokes and laughing at Retake.

[CJMissen]

I'm leaving my donation right where it is.

185th NMM
Holding the Line

[xxskyshadowxx]

Dridengx wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

First how do we know the people asking for their money back aren't plants? Or people that want to see the movement fail? Remember the shady stuff that went down with ACORN?

Now I'm not saying that is what is going on but we have no proof either way. It is something to question. The donate page is very clear and only an absolute moron wouldn't figure out it was a charity for sick kids and not to remake the ME 3 ending.
.

Well, not to start a fight but you are talking about the same people who threatened Bioware Employees, reported Bioware to the FTC, filed a complaint to the BBB, filed a lawsuit against Bioware. tried to have EA's phones flooded. Had people email EA, Edited Bioware Employee's wiki pages. lower amazon review scores, bombed metacritic scores, Did bomb threat thread, attacked Jennifer Hepler, threatened the lives of the PR department, Told Pro enders to commit suicide. I mean I could go on and on.. Not saying everyone on your side is like this BUT people on your side are a bit radical..

After knowing all that, is it stupid to think a 'plant' was involved or someone on your side goofed again?

Don't generalize. A lawsuit wasn't filed, although some few angry people said one shoul be. Exactly one person filed a FTC complaint. Also on Bioware's BBB page, the complaints are older and about other games's issues. There is only one complaint was filed about the ME3 ending. While I can't say anything about the other claims because I didn't see them I expect you're looking at the behavior of less than a handful of people there too. The same small number of "Pro-ending" people have behaved really badly as well. That doesn't mean that every fan of the ending is a rabid lunatic about it, any more then the folks who disliked the endings are.

That being said, I've only seen one person say he/she wanted to take the donation back, and there has also been a post explaining that Child's Play representatives offered to reverse donations back to people who are upset with their decision not to allow any more donations...but I didn't see anyone jump on board with that. So, the OP is also generalizing in my opinion, this thread is pointless flame bait and it should be locked.

[Computron2000]

Dridengx wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

As for the link noted in the first post, no numbers are given nor any actual data. As most children will notice, "many", "several", "a lot", etc have no actual meaning as it is subjective. "Many" for you might be 3, but "many" for me might be a hundred.

if you went to school you would know many has NEVER been three. Three is a few. 7 is several. and so on. MANY means a lot. ever heard the term "Many soldiers return home" etc

And to base this as a number we have to calculate how many actually gave to the charity and use that number against the word many.. Many being less than half otherwise it would have been stated. Many could be any number but it sure ain't a minority when Child's Play said "High" number... high is greater than half. Majority is 6-7ish, 8 is leaning towards High. High could be 80% so we can't say other than knowing they said HIGH and high is never a small number lol

Well let me ask you then, if 3 out of 4 people in a room said they liked bananas, is the following statement correct?
"Many people in the room liked bananas".

High by no means is linked to being greater than half. Most is the one that has an actual link to being more than half. Now let me ask you this interesting question. There's 3 candidates running for an election. there's 1,000,000 votes. One gets 100,000, the other 2 gets 450,000 each. Now can i say that the one that got 100,000 had gotten a high number of voters voting for him? Note i did not talk about percentages, simply plain numbers.

Modifié par Computron2000, 23 mars 2012 - 12:30 .

[Tazzmission]

xeNNN wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

xeNNN wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

gudman wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

so wait you think using sick children is a good thing to get a ending?

do you have any idea on how selfish that is?

Using - it's when you grab that sick kid by the scruff and wave him around yelling: DO WHAT I SAY OR I'LL BREAK HIS NECK! If I give said kid money for whatever reason I may have - hey, I still helped him. No matter the intention. 

actually to use isnt that btw


1. To put into service or apply for a purpose; employ.2. To avail oneself of; practice: use caution.3. To conduct oneself toward; treat or handle: "the peace offering of a man who once used you unkindly"(Laurence Sterne).

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................
4. To seek or achieve an end by means of; exploit:

^this defines the take back movment seeing as they have always stated lets add more pressure to bioware
................................................................................................................................................................................................

k now thats annoyed me......... your directly attacking A TON of people now who you cannot for any reason know every single one of those persons intentions behind donating. you expect hat with around about 50,000 odd people there is not going to be a small group of morons...... you get this with every movement, those the state you made would work in terms of applying pressure to bioware through forum use and other forms, charity however isnt a fair arguement as A LOT OF US did it for a positive reason, to turn a negative into a positive, even if we dont get anything out of this movement atleast someone who deservers it will, the fact that you use that definition in order to slam the entire movement simply because of a few individuals acting like childish morons is appauling and insulting. 

nobody who is truely behind the retake mass effect movement would ask for there money back or do anything to jepordise anything for the movement or the people we have helped. 

so dont spout your hollier than thou crap down our throats simply because a "group" of indivduals have been acting like jerks.

maybe if you go a page or 2 back you would see that i did in fact aplogize to those who dont support the people who demand a refund


ps. if i call you a jerk trust me you would know because i would flat out just say it and i havent so far so dont twist my words around

actually you just twisted my words. i never said you called anyone a jerk i said they were acting like jerks. 

and i appologise i didnt see your reply/comment on that. 

this whole things just annoyed me though, so many people that are pathetic its unbelievable. 

just like i said dont generalise us ( i know you dont do it intentionally) but thats how your comments come across is all.

like i said to another poster in pm this to me is devastating because even if its 1 person or 100 who ask for there money back really does baffle me

i do feel that yes the take back movment is resposible because those who did ask for a refund claim there with you

and im not trying to be a jerk but i do feel strongly yes your movment is somewhat responcible for it

is it fare to me or anyone else who want no part of your movment to be just thrown in by the media or other websites?

no matter how this ends you do realize every mass effect fan will be deemed a whiney entitle brat

i sure as heck aint one because i cant even remember how many times i have stated how i like what i payed for

should i be demonized or looked down upon because your movment flat out says all the time they fight for every gamer?

excuse my mouth when i say this but hell no

the only person who speaks for me is me and if i have something to say you can bet i will say it


ive even went on record 2 nights ago explaining to someone that gaming to me is a way a life not a hobby and i feel the way that the movment has been acting itll ruin the gaming community

im sorry but thats how i feel and all i can do is be me and be 100% honest

Modifié par Tazzmission, 23 mars 2012 - 12:36 .

[Dridengx]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

First how do we know the people asking for their money back aren't plants? Or people that want to see the movement fail? Remember the shady stuff that went down with ACORN?

Now I'm not saying that is what is going on but we have no proof either way. It is something to question. The donate page is very clear and only an absolute moron wouldn't figure out it was a charity for sick kids and not to remake the ME 3 ending.
.

Well, not to start a fight but you are talking about the same people who threatened Bioware Employees, reported Bioware to the FTC, filed a complaint to the BBB, filed a lawsuit against Bioware. tried to have EA's phones flooded. Had people email EA, Edited Bioware Employee's wiki pages. lower amazon review scores, bombed metacritic scores, Did bomb threat thread, attacked Jennifer Hepler, threatened the lives of the PR department, Told Pro enders to commit suicide. I mean I could go on and on.. Not saying everyone on your side is like this BUT people on your side are a bit radical..

After knowing all that, is it stupid to think a 'plant' was involved or someone on your side goofed again?

Don't generalize.

Please learn to read. Do I have to highlight it for you? Here, I'll help you out so I can save us some time lol

[Tirranek]

pottypenguin wrote...

For anyone who doesn’t see what’s going on in this thread I have the real ending to ME3 for sale. Hint? No real evidence being used to paint the whole “I don’t like the ending to ME3” community in a very negative light. Using a charity to further your goal and then asking for a refund. YOU MONSTERS!!!  Why did all the other threads that talked about PA dropping the movement get closed while this one stayed up? Looks like it’s doing it’s job to me. (DPR)

Heaven forbid some people have the chance to voice an opinion that doesn't involve claiming, taking, re-taking, standing ground, standing firm, standing here, standing there, or generally holding some sort of line.

Despite appearances, this is way more than a two-way discussion.  

[HenchxNarf]

Tirranek wrote...

pottypenguin wrote...

For anyone who doesn’t see what’s going on in this thread I have the real ending to ME3 for sale. Hint? No real evidence being used to paint the whole “I don’t like the ending to ME3” community in a very negative light. Using a charity to further your goal and then asking for a refund. YOU MONSTERS!!!  Why did all the other threads that talked about PA dropping the movement get closed while this one stayed up? Looks like it’s doing it’s job to me. (DPR)

Heaven forbid some people have the chance to voice an opinion that doesn't involve claiming, taking, re-taking, standing ground, standing firm, standing here, standing there, or generally holding some sort of line.

Despite appearances, this is way more than a two-way discussion.  

^ This.

No one is allowed to say anything against them or show some sort of proof in the way some if not most are acting.

[CasbynessPC]

Wow, I take a break for a while and this is here when I check back...

People seem really confused about the order of events and motivation here. This is what happened:

1. People got mad about the ME3 ending.

2. Some people weren't so mad as to stay permanently depressed, decided to turn their rage to something good, so set up the charity fund.

3. Anyone mad about the ME3 ending who wanted some good to come of it, donated money.

4. A couple of journalists mentioned in an article that it might be nice if EA ponied up something for the fund. This comment didn't come from the forums and was never intended or taken seriously.

5. Some people inevitably read the couple of articles that mistook the charity fund for a "let's raise money to change the ME3 ending fund", donated money because they misunderstood the cause, then asked for it back when they realised the mistake. Those people should get some new glasses.

6. Penny Arcade reported the refund requests. Motivation? I don't really care. I think saying it's a smear campaign is silly, since all it's saying is "some people can't read properly, or were unlucky enough to read an article that mistakenly took the donations for an "ME3 ending fund" which it isn't."

The idea that the donations drive is exploiting the charity, or "the sick children", is a reversal of cause and effect. It was the ME3 ending rage that was harnessed into a useful form for the benefit of the charity, not the other way around.

If anyone wants to use me as a tool for their own sinister schemes by sending me £50k, I'm sure I can find a way to live with the pain O.O

[Vaktathi]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

How people can argue against this whole movement being labled as whiney entitled brats is beyond me.

Look, so much people asked for their money back from CHARITY that the charity had to close it's doors to new donations. That's how entitled they are.

Except...if you *READ* their post, that's not the reason why.

[gimzod76]

people want money back that they gave to charity?

sometimes the human race just makes me sick.

[DESTRAUDO]

See this is exactly what i am talking about. 

HenchxNarf wrote...

Kulthar Drax wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Retake need to accept that they cannot regulate their membership any more than anonymous does. For better or worse a percentage of the people who are part of retake are scumbags. I would wager it is a similar percentage to a random population sample.

At the same time, I find it just as disturbing and despicable that people in said movement are not turning on Penny Arcade. Conspiracies are already starting to flow, hate topics already starting to appear, names already starting to be called, referring to them as 'bald' and 'pig like' for example.

This juvenile attitude is going to smear your efforts in the long run just as much as the people demanding charity refunds.

Again, there is no reason to turn on Penny Arcade.

Hold on, isn't the Child's Play charity run by one of the guys at Penny Arcade? I don't know if this is accurate, just what I read somewhere. If this is the case, then we can hardly take anything Penny Arcade says with any reliability anyway, since it is a massive conflict of interest (considering Penny Arcade has been pretty hostile to Retake).

But if people have really been demanding their money back, shame on you. I donated and as far as I am concerned, we still did good regardless of the outcome. We helped some sick kids by raising over $80,000 and anyone should be proud of that and nobody can take this achievement away from us.

Again, Penny Arcade created/founded/thought up Child's Play.

They haven't been hostile. They just don't agree with the movement. There is a difference. However what PA says has no real relation to CP as a whole.

[thesmallearth]

Its a simple philosophy - stick to the facts and don't assume.

We don't know the number that request money back from the charity, until we do (if ever), everything is pure speculation and should be treated as such, therefore all posts flaming others need to be treated accordingly and feeding the troll type behaviour doesn't benefit anyone.