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[Blakes 7]

Here is the link to an interesting read

http://www.gamasutra...than_Worthy.php

After reading this article it occurs to me that I enjoyed dao less than bg2 because there weren't enough new 'wow' ideas coming into it. Dao's identity became synomous with bg2's as soon as it was identified as a 'spiritual successor'. But being a copy of something great like bg2 can only ever mean 2nd place especially when you are unable to even match the depth of the original in many respects. (such as exploration, depth of combat system etc) Granted dao excelled in other areas that bg2 didn't but those differences alone did not add up to an overall better experience for me. (subjective as my opinion is)

In other words they might as well have set out to build a better world of warcraft and not quite managed to reach its standards.

Dragon age is too mainstream and not niche enough to
define its own identity. We have a largely unimaginative story about
saving the world with too many familiar elements which gets repetitive fast. (At least for me this inhibits replay potential) Maybe dao is too bent on serving the retro community and forgot that at the time bg2 came out it was innovative and a market leader.

Time to start innovating I think, and be worthy!

The other thing for me is that we have been getting a lot of marketing pr talk that skips over some issues rather than addresses them. Things like 'its meant to work this way' completely ignores users complaints about interface issues, esp for console users. (And yes I'm a pc user, but so what, doesn't sound fair to me) Things such as balance etc, while the game is made easier for some at normal and easy levels there is no acknowledgement that some people want a harder level of difficulty by having a difficulty level just for them. This is selective hearing of the community. (Although this may be addressed in a patch so who knows)

And yeah dragon age is a very good game - at least an 8/10 but these are the reasons its can't be great in my opinion

So please understand you are quite entitled to disagree but understand that I contribute this post so that people can discuss the ideas in the article as they relate to dragon age. Enjoy!

[Kaosgirl]

Blakes 7 wrote...

Here is the link to an interesting read

http://www.gamasutra...than_Worthy.php

After reading this article it occurs to me that I enjoyed dao less than bg2 because there weren't enough new 'wow' ideas coming into it. Dao's identity became synomous with bg2's as soon as it was identified as a 'spiritual successor'. But being a copy of something great like bg2 can only ever mean 2nd place especially when you are unable to even match the depth of the original in many respects. (such as exploration, depth of combat system etc) Granted dao excelled in other areas that bg2 didn't but those differences alone did not add up to an overall better experience for me. (subjective as my opinion is)

In other words they might as well have set out to build a better world of warcraft and not quite managed to reach its standards.

Dragon age is too mainstream and not niche enough to
define its own identity. We have a largely unimaginative story about
saving the world with too many familiar elements which gets repetitive fast. (At least for me this inhibits replay potential) Maybe dao is too bent on serving the retro community and forgot that at the time bg2 came out it was innovative and a market leader.

Time to start innovating I think, and be worthy!

The other thing for me is that we have been getting a lot of marketing pr talk that skips over some issues rather than addresses them. Things like 'its meant to work this way' completely ignores users complaints about interface issues, esp for console users. (And yes I'm a pc user, but so what, doesn't sound fair to me) Things such as balance etc, while the game is made easier for some at normal and easy levels there is no acknowledgement that some people want a harder level of difficulty by having a difficulty level just for them.

I always thought "Normal" was the baseline.  Easy is for people who find Normal too hard, and Hard or (especially) Nightmare are for those guys who want... er... "a harder level of difficulty just for them."

Which means they *did* try to accommodate that idea already.  You might have a negative opinion about how they tried to do it, but claiming there is 'no acknowledgement' for it at all is just plain silly.

[Blakes 7]

I'm not talking about the hard level which they did not touch; or denying that others are entitled to an easier easy or normal difficulty. I am talking about providing players with another difficulty level for those that want it. Check out the hardcore mods already available, these shouldn't be necessary - so hopefully bioware is planning a difficulty level for those not finding gameplay hard enough. And maybe you would like to discuss the article?

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:05 .

[Wolfva2]

Valid post, and well stated. However, I have to point out that the bottom line is individual taste. For YOU the game may have fallen short of BG2. For many others, it was better. It all falls to personal taste.



One of your criticisms is the game is to 'unimaginative'. Perhaps because the story of the few verses the many for the survival of the realm has been told for millenia? Guess what, there is a reason that story keeps being told. It's popular. In another thread similar to this one someone pointed out there are only 36 possible naratives in story telling. All of them are cliched. Unfortunately, there is nothing new under the sun...and even if a gaming company figured out a completely new way to tell a story, it probably wouldn't sell many copies because people like the familiar.

[Blakes 7]

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree it is a matter of individual taste. It has been bugging me through that the origin stories seem so separate from the overall story. There could of been great potential there to weave these origins into a greater whole and do something genuinely noteworthy.

Although not just the story needed more thought - the game environment is itself a part of the story. And while I understand they made some efforts in these regards I did not find these elements to be cohesive or well utilised throughout the story. I mean dialogue by itself cannot convey a story and shouldn't.

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:12 .

[Skellimancer]

Bah! Baldur's Gate 1 is the best..

[Blakes 7]

I did prefer bg1's exploration of the environment, even accounting for the fact that I played bg2 first. So in that at least I agree

[Skellimancer]

Blakes 7 wrote...

I did prefer bg1's exploration of the environment, even accounting for the fact that I played bg2 first. So in that at least I agree

I miss my old team. i was pissed off when they didn't get to cross over to BG2.

[Blakes 7]

I take it you had a chaotic team then? I think there is a tutu mod that allows for a continuous experience between bg1 to bg2 - no importing necessary. Anyways, back on topic, how would you make dragon age more 'wow' worthy - and I'm not talking about world of warcraft.

[Kaosgirl]

Blakes 7 wrote...

I'm not talking about the hard level which they did not touch; or denying that others are entitled to an easier easy or normal difficulty. I am talking about providing players with another difficulty level for those that want it.

They made "hard."  Then they made "nightmare."  What do you want - infinite difficulty scaling?

Blakes 7 wrote...
Check out the hardcore mods already available, these shouldn't be necessary

Please.  If Bioware had put that in themselves, you'd just have those same people making another 'hardcore' mod to go beyond even that.  And we'd still be having this conversation.

Like I said:  Bioware did make an effort to put in extra difficulty levels for the guys who wanted it "even harder."  You can **** and moan about how they tried to scale the difficulty, or accuse them of failing to accomplish the goal.

But don't come in and say they didn't even try, because they very obviously did.

Blakes 7 wrote...
- so hopefully bioware is planning a difficulty level for those not finding gameplay hard enough.

And then a week after they beat that "Beyond Nightmare" difficulty, they'll be asking for Bioware to make yet another new difficulty for them.  And then another.  And then another...

Or they'll wise up, and realize that the modding tools are provided *by the company itself* for the express purpose (among other things) of tailoring the game to whatever quirks you prefer (within the capacity of the community to work with the modding tools.)

Blakes 7 wrote...
And maybe you would like to discuss the article?

Doing so would violate the no-flaming policy on this board.  At least, for the parts that warrant more than an empty statement of approval.

Modifié par Kaosgirl, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:23 .

[Blakes 7]

Hmm, someones got an attitude, why so hostile? You can't assume an attitude of negativity behind text can you? - its non-emotive - and frankly that reflects you more than me. I was stating an opinion - just don't put words in my mouth thank you very much

Tsk the nature of forums I guess, people assume so much; just calmly state your argument thanks:lol: Perhaps I should use smileys more??

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:26 .

[GHL_Soul_Reaver]

Why does the customer defend the company when we should deman more from the company rather than defending it?



I don't get the idealogy behind saying it is bad that you say all this about bioware when it is someones personal facts, try and respond clever to it rather than just as mentioned above putting words into the mouth of someone.



Some of the points I have to agree to, and I do not see why this game should win an award as the best RPG of year or whatever, big reason is lack of being able to head into multiplayer with selfmade stuff for an instance, not meaning that the singleplayer content should be able to support it.



Watched some Starcraft 2 stuff a couple of months ago... they made there game so you would have a toolset that you could work with in ways that you could actually make an FPS game out of it as well, now think of if someone decides to make an RPG with that toolset or the likes and so on and so forth, it is all new thinking, and taking focus on what can be done next and what can we grant to the community.

[Blakes 7]

You can actually make a fps out of an rts toolset? That is seriously impressive - will be interesting to see what can be done with the dragon age toolset

[Kaosgirl]

Blakes 7 wrote...

Hmm, someones got an attitude, why so hostile?

The rules of this board prevent me from indulging in what I would actually consider hostile.  This doesn't even come close.

Blakes 7 wrote...

You can't assume an attitude of negativity behind text can you? - its non-emotive - and frankly that reflects you more than me.

I'll be perfectly honest here, and admit I've got no idea what you're talking about there.

Blakes 7 wrote...

I was stating an opinion - just don't put words in my mouth thank you very much

You claimed Bioware made 'no acknowledgement' of those who wanted a more difficult game, in blatant ignorance of the fact that they put in not one but *two* additional difficulty levels above normal explicitly for those people.  That's not putting words in your mouth - that's just confronting your exact words with contradicting facts.

The closest I came to "putting words in your mouth" was a somewhat rhetorical question asking if your opinion boiled down to a demand for infinite difficulty scaling.  

[Blakes 7]

I know there is a hard and nightmare difficulty already for those users. I'm simply saying that is not enough IMO. Case closed. Make of that what you will.

To clarify further, it would be nice to have bioware respond as quickly as they did to complaints that the game is too hard

...but what about the users who think that the game is too easy. Okey Dokey?

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:52 .

[Kaosgirl]

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...

Why does the customer defend the company when we should deman more from the company rather than defending it?

Because unrealistic demands without positive feedback for what was done right actually discourages the designers from trying, resulting in us getting *nothing* instead.

Though TBH, I'm thinking more of the design team who worked their asses off building this than I am of the CEO and stockholders who put up the capital to make it possible.

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...
I don't get the idealogy behind saying it is bad that you say all this about bioware when it is someones personal facts, try and respond clever to it rather than just as mentioned above putting words into the mouth of someone.

I'm fine with opinions, so long as they're not based on "facts" that are actually contradicted by the evidence.  But if someone says "They don't even acknowledge the people who want a harder game" - that's not an opinion.  It's an error, or possibly a lie.  They did acknowledge those people, and made an obvious effort to do something for them.

Now, If someone says "Nightmare doesn't go far enough," that's a fair opinion.  I might have speculations as to why they did things the way they did, but I would be trying to mitigate blame rather than correcting an error.

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...
Some of the points I have to agree to, and I do not see why this game should win an award as the best RPG of year or whatever, big reason is lack of being able to head into multiplayer with selfmade stuff for an instance, not meaning that the singleplayer content should be able to support it.

Eh.  What RPG that came out this year do you think was more deserving?
(Note:  game released as an RPG, not an FPS or RTS or something that had RPG elements or could be modded into an RPG by the after market.)

Maybe you've got an idea of something.  Personally, I don't - unless we go back more than a year, but then we wouldn't be talking "RPG of the Year" anymore.

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...
Watched some Starcraft 2 stuff a couple of months ago... they made there game so you would have a toolset that you could work with in ways that you could actually make an FPS game out of it as well, now think of if someone decides to make an RPG with that toolset or the likes and so on and so forth, it is all new thinking, and taking focus on what can be done next and what can we grant to the community.

Meh.  The credit for that, IMO, would go to the aftermarket designers who made an RPG;  Blizzard would just get credit for making the toolset open enough to do that with.

[thisisme8]

I'd actually rather be lucky than good, but sexy wouldn't be bad either.

[Blakes 7]

I'm talking post release difficulty level issues - and I'll leave it at that - noone is denying there intent to provide for the hardcore player. Man, english is just the most ambiguous language, and I thought I was making my position clear. Perhaps you should have just asked a clarifying question?

Nah, sexy and lucky is the ideal

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:09 .

[Kaosgirl]

Blakes 7 wrote...

I know there is a hard and nightmare difficulty already for those users. I'm simply saying that is not enough IMO. Case closed. Make of that what you will.

As worded, what I make out is "I want N+5 difficulty levels provided by the distributor, where N is however many they  actually gave us."

Which is an impossible request.

Blakes 7 wrote...
To clarify further, it would be nice to have bioware respond as quickly as they did to complaints that the game is too hard

...but what about the users who think that the game is too easy. Okey Dokey?

I don't recall Bioware really responding officially to either, but I might be wrong.  What kind of response would you want, though?

And ftr, "Okey Dokey" sounds somewhat patronizing.  A clear indication that it is possible to convey attitude with just text

[Blakes 7]

Different cultures, different words, different meanings, different understandings, english is ambiguous yes. Sorry if it came off as patronising, trying to convey 'nice' end of position, if that makes any sense. Offence in language usually comes from the tone it is conveyed in, regardless of the language. But yeah sorry you were offended. Perhaps for future reference if you disagree with something consider asking a clarifying question first before assuming a position on something. Try not to take that the wrong way :happy:.

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:18 .

[Kaosgirl]

Blakes 7 wrote...

I'm talking post release difficulty level issues - and I'll leave it at that - noone is denying there intent to provide for the hardcore player. Man, english is just the most ambiguous language, and I thought I was making my position clear. Perhaps you should have just asked a clarifying question?

I though I did, though it may have come off as rhetorical.

But let me try again:  other than releasing a toolset to the community (so that players can tweak the game post-release as they see fit) how would you provide this?

All I can come up with (again, other than turning it over to the modding community) is splitting off their team to provide free "official-modding" services themselves.  Which gets in the way of working on new projects, or new content.  
Would you be willing to drop the free, and pay DLC prices for difficulty upgrades?

[Blakes 7]

I would be content if they maybe tweaked some of the difficulty in a patch. It would be nice to hear some of what they're thinking about this.

Maybe have options for difficulty so you select the additional difficulties you want to have in a hard or nightmare playthrough game through checkboxes, so essentially your choosing what difficulty you want to play with. A standard hard or some additonal difficulty options for a hard hard playthrough. (Just more options really)

For instance you could choose in your hard playthrough

To use a slider to adjust the AI intelligence to make it harder than usual for hard

Or select a limited loot option so that  players have to use better tactics.

Just some examples

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:28 .

[PhD-gaming]

I read the article; the author made an excellent point. When I look for new games, I look for a) a challenge, and a NEW experience. When I played DAO I was thinking a little more along the lines of innovative. I have to admit I enjoyed the game the first and second time through, but after that it loses practically all of its lackluster. It's been what I've always enjoyed playing, but that's also the main problem - it's been the way it has for a while now (in some aspects it was somewhat disappointing from what and how I typically play). As has been pointed out, MMORPG's have fleshed out the RPG genre pretty thoroughly.

I am a fan of Baldur's Gate: Shadows of Amn (I don't remember if that was the same as the other Baldur's Gates, but I also played the first two Xbox Baldur's Gate games, which were a blast playing with my twin sis). Maybe I've become more critical over time, but my experience with RPG's, which are consequently my favorite genre, have been degrading over the years. I actually found ES: Morrowind loads more fun than Oblivion, simply because Morrowind was entirely new to me, hence my second preference. Point is, RPG's seem to have been having a hard time taking a new turn in recent years.

Lastly, I'd simply like to add that I've been a fan of Bioware for a long time (Mass Effect was the most refreshing return to the space adventure universe I had had in a very long time). The best RPG I've probably ever played had to be KOTOR, in fact. However, I think they have the talent and capability to do something new, but have not reached the decision to abandon the "worthiness" bandwagon just yet.

Modifié par PhD-gaming, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[Volourn]

"2nd place especially when you are unable to even match the depth of the original in many respects. (such as exploration, depth of combat system etc)"

Kididng right? Does that 'depth' include fighters just swing a sword blandly? That's as shallow as it gets. Is that depth of the world? In comaprison to DA, BG2 is very shallow. Seriosuly, it says a lot when your signature character in that game is a one note retarded ranger.

Where is BG2's depth comes to mage lore? dwarven politics? the fade? the blight?

BG saga happened because some pathetic god was a ****. DA's plot happens... why? Nobody really knows as the mystery of the truth behind the blight is not neccessarily one note.

BG2 companions are one note, and most of them have no depth. BG2 was an awesome game... nearly 10 years ago. If that game came out now, it would be laughed at most likely as maybe a possible game. It certainly isn't in the realm of DA's awesomeness in terms of depth, role-playing, actual C&C, sparks of grey, actual surprises (outside... luke, i am your.... BROTHER!).. LMAO

BG2's saving grace - and the only it does better than DA - is that Irenicus is still probably the best main villain ever.

Otherwise, DA absolutely crushes it!

Modifié par Volourn, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:40 .

[Blakes 7]

I agree with the sword combat being bland in baldurs gate, and the villain part being better in bg2. But you could and did have to use much more in the way of tactics to defeat the greater variety of enemies - and the mage battles in bg2 are much more epic in IMO. Fair enough through, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.

You know some people don't play games for lore right?

Modifié par Blakes 7, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:59 .