306 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?


2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.


6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes.
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide.
Which would solve, you know, NOTHING!
My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as.
But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character.
You don't do that!


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic.
But that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary.
Not possible with organics.

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no.
According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive.
In other words, still organic just with extra parts.









Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.

Which is, you know, BS!

And this theory is just a speculation.


So yeah.
I will ask you people to throw this theory out of the window cause there is no Bioware's master plan to fix endings all along, they actually though this was a good idea.

Don't give them pleasure in trying to fill holes that Bioware should have done and demand from them to make FREE DLC to fix endings.
And by that I mean overhaul them.
Starkid, Normandy escaping and Synthesis ending have to go away.



This is Mesina2/CroGamer002 and hold the line.

[Jaze55]

At LEAST stop trying to prove to everyone how "TRUE" it is.

Please.

Thank you.

[CroGamer002]

^wut?

[Rhazesx]

With some space magic Sheperd has a special kind of indoctrination that no one can see, not Javik, not the prothean vi and not even the player.

[CroGamer002]

^In other words, bad writing.

Which solves, nothing.

[DreamTension]

Some good points brought here. I still like the indoctrination theory over anything else.

[Grasich]

I'm not really a fan of it. However if it gets us a fixed ending I'll take it. I would personally prefer they just redo everything after or slightly before you get hit by Harby.

[scrapmetals]

Why weren't the Protheans able to stop their indoctrinated fellows, then?

[General User]

Yeah.  The "Indoctrination Theory" is really just fans trying to make sense of the garbage that is the ending we actually got in the game. 

To get the "Indoctrination Theory" to make sense you need to cherry pick certain bits and pieces of the game.  Selectively interpreting the bits that fit the theory and ignoring the bits that don't.

It's very human to try to make sense out of something that is really just senseless.  It's a very human reaction, just not a rational one.  Or maybe "it is selectively rational" would be a better way to put it.

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, the video game portion of Mass Effect 3 ends once Shepard launches the missiles in London and Arcian's Fixed Ending takes over from there.

[NM_Che56]

He hasn't BEEN indoctrinated yet. The Reapers are TRYING to indoctrinate him.

If Shep chooses anything other than "destroy" then that completes the indoctrination. Assuming the VI or Javik are around to sniff him, THEN they would detect it.

You can't detect what isn't there yet.

[Iwillbeback]

It seems your only arguments are extremely weak ones.

The Protheans could not detect the Protheans who betrayed them and neither could the VI's.
That is why your debunk is flawed.

[NM_Che56]

scrapmetals wrote...

Why weren't the Protheans able to stop their indoctrinated fellows, then?

Why couldn't that crew on that ship that docked with the derelict reaper in ME2 stop it?

[bwFex]

Copypasta from the compilation thread on reddit:

If Shepard is indoctrinated, why doesn't the VI on Thessia detect it?

This is a tough one to tackle, because we really just don't know much about how a VI detects indoctrination.

The most common and simple response to this argument is simply that Shepard is either not indoctrinated until Harbinger weakens and mentally attacks him on London, or that he is not indoctrinated enough for the VI to detect it.

Most indoctrination theorists believe that Shepard does not ever become indoctrinated unless he chooses the wrong answers at the very end. Everything leading up to that is subtle manipulation/preparation, or failed attempts to indoctrinate him.

If Shepard is indoctrinated, why doesn't Javik detect it?

This is a tough one to tackle, because we really just don't know much about how prothean touch-sense works.

The most common and simple response to this argument is simply that Shepard is either not indoctrinated until Harbinger weakens and mentally attacks him on London
, or that he is not indoctrinated enough for Javik to detect it. An equally valid theory is that prothean touch-sense simply doesn't have the ability to detect indoctrination. Lest we forget, the protheans were betrayed by an indoctrinated splinter group, so we know that they can be fooled.

Why dreams?

From the codex:

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 

The limbic system has access to all sorts of different emotions, visions, and other mental tasks, including dreaming. In particular, there are studies linking it to threatening/dangerous elements in dreams.

Indoctrination seems too easy, why not just do that?

We know a lot of things about indoctrination, but we do not know what sort of strain, if any, it puts on the Reaper(s) doing it. We know from ME1 that any sort of direct control / attack consumes enough of a Reaper's focus to weaken/distract it - which is exactly how we killed Sovereign.

How did Shepard get indoctrinated so quickly, while it took TIM/Saren longer?

The codex explains that "rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks." Bear in mind that it is not the rapid indoctrination that takes days or weeks: it is the decaying effects of that indoctrination: physical weakness and loss of higher mental capacity.

Harbinger is one of the largest and most powerful Reapers we know of.It is not unreasonable to assume that his indoctrination abilities are powerful enough to attempt rapid indoctrination with Shepard, especially in his physically weakened, unconscious state. He isn't necessarily concerned with the long-term use of Shepard: he only needs to indoctrinate him long enough to create a few critical mistakes, harnessing Shepard's position of influence among the allied fleets. 

Indoctrination is permanent.

We know of at least one confirmed case of an organic reversing the effects of indoctrination: Shiala. She fell under Sovereign's indoctrination, but was traded to the Thorian in exchange for knowledge of the Cipher. It is not clearly explained how, but Sovereign's indoctrination was supplanted by the Thorian's unique control mechanism (which bears a lot of similarities and serves as a useful, if not perfectly transferrable, analogue to indoctrination).

When the Thorian was killed, Shiala was set free of its control, leaving her in charge of her own actions. In fact, Shiala and the other released thralls on Feros were able to use the remaining traces of the Thorian's "indoctrination" to enhance their own communications, turning a ragtag group of militia into a powerful military force capable of fighting against the Reaper threat. Shiala seems to acknowledge that there are still traces of her indoctrination present, as she can feel the Reapers' influence in her mind, but that she is able to wholly resist these influences because of her Thorian-given connection to the other colonists.

We also know of at least one case of an organic being resisting Reaper indoctrination with almost perfect results: the Rachni Queen. We know that it is not simply a biological immunity, as her spawn as easily indoctrinated by the Reapers, and other queens appear to have been indoctrinated during the Rachni Wars. But for unexplained reasons (presumably, the tremendous amount of mental fortitude required to manage a hivemind), this particular Rachni Queen resisted Reaper indoctrinate so perfectly that the Reapers resorted to physical restraints.

With all of that said, it is 100% possible that after this, Shepard's indoctrination would be permanent, and he would need to die. That, in my opinion, is a much more acceptable price to pay than what we currently have.

Modifié par bwFex, 23 mars 2012 - 05:07 .

[CroGamer002]

Iwillbeback wrote...

It seems your only arguments are extremely weak ones.

The Protheans could not detect the Protheans who betrayed them and neither could the VI's.
That is why your debunk is flawed.

And other evidence I showed against it?

Or you just read only first one?

Modifié par Mesina2, 23 mars 2012 - 05:01 .

[NM_Che56]

Iwillbeback wrote...

It seems your only arguments are extremely weak ones.

The Protheans could not detect the Protheans who betrayed them and neither could the VI's.
That is why your debunk is flawed.

Agree.

Other than Shepard, did anyone else try to stop that crazy indoctrinated scientist or her indoctrinated fellows in The Arrival?

No. 

FIN

[Iwillbeback]

Mesina2 wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

It seems your only arguments are extremely weak ones.

The Protheans could not detect the Protheans who betrayed them and neither could the VI's.
That is why your debunk is flawed.

And other evidence I showed against it?

Or you just read only first one?

The first two.


The last 4 don't really matter.
Perhaps shepard is just different, you know special and one of the endings showed him beating indoctrination by being strong.
The prothean beacon may of altered something in his mind that makes him different.
Perhaps it altering his mind before he got indoctrinated changed him unlike Saren.



I remember Liara going on and on about shepard's mind over and over again, not the images.
Just his mind.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 23 mars 2012 - 05:06 .

[Electric Pig]

Indoctrination theory has less plot holes than current endings.

[Vromrig]

Each question incorrectly framed.

Assumes already Indoctrinated.

Therefore answer or argument is useless. Premise of inquiry flawed, so only need to answer is pointing out of mistake.

Would recommend understanding theory, before attempting to refute.

[NM_Che56]

Mesina2.

1-3, 5 & 6: he's not indoctrinated yet. The Reapers are trying to indoctrinate him. It's a process. It takes time.
4: There are several examples of indoctrination cited throughout the lore and the games played prior. Derelict Reaper? The Arrival? Cerberus? Indoctrination is a "real" thing (in Mass Effect). Why do they do it? The same reason why dictators don't just beat the hell out of everyone and "indoctrinate" the masses. They don't want to kill everyone. They want to control. They want submissive subjects. The Reapers do not want to kill all organic life. They want to make another Reaper and harvest. Like cult leaders, you need to make people willingly give their lives. Even Javik indicated that the Reapers tried to make nice as a lure so people let their guards down.

[NM_Che56]

Vromrig wrote...

Each question incorrectly framed.

Assumes already Indoctrinated.

Therefore answer or argument is useless. Premise of inquiry flawed, so only need to answer is pointing out of mistake.

Would recommend understanding theory, before attempting to refute.

BAM!  DONE.

[Vorodill]

1-Maybe the indoctrination process start at the beam Harbinger shoot at Shepard at the end of the game.

2-The Protheans could not detect Indoctrinated people in their time.

3-Indoctrination is about Reapers bringing you to their way of thinking. It's not about control. They give you the option to refuse. If Indo theory is right, what we see is the first attempt of indoctrination.

4-They don't need to. They are big ****ing Reapers who don't care about a few ships. We are flies to them. Why bother with indoctrinating people first and attack later? The husks are a bonus for their invasion. The indoctrinated people too.

5-Indoctrination can me done really fast (but people will look like the Salarians subjecs in Saren's base in ME1).

6-If Indo theory is true, Shepard is not fully indoctrinated. He still has free will, like Saren and TIM. And I think they shoot themselves cause they have Reaper implants... Doesn't mean he HAS to commit suicide.

They scrapped an indoctrination idea that changes the gameplay. The Indo theory we have talks about metagaming experience, not gameplay experience.

Modifié par Vorodill, 23 mars 2012 - 05:14 .

[Fingertrip]

The Protheans didn't detect the sleeper agents in their own ranks.

So yeh, point mood. Thread dead, carry on.

[thegame30]

Some people try to say IT is wrong. I am the first one to admit i had flaws but i don't see anyone trying to answer 3 basic questions about the current endings.

1- How companions end up in the Normandy?(NPC who were hit by the same blast i was).
2- How come i have infinite ammo?
3- Why after Anderson dead we realize we are bleeding?(Almost on the same spot we shot at him)

Those 3 are the easy ones answer those and i have bunch more ready for you.

[Vromrig]

Fingertrip wrote...

The Protheans didn't detect the sleeper agents in their own ranks.

So yeh, point mood. Thread dead, carry on.

Poor argument to make.  Focusing on little pictures.  Unable to see big picture.

[CroGamer002]

bwFex wrote...

This is a tough one to tackle, because we really just don't know much about how a VI detects indoctrination.

The most common and simple response to this argument is simply that Shepard is either not indoctrinated until Harbinger weakens and mentally attacks him on London, or that he is not indoctrinated enough for the VI to detect it.

So, that Harbinger laser can now indoctrinate people?
What?

This is a tough one to tackle, because we really just don't know much about how prothean touch-sense works.

, or that he is not indoctrinated enough for Javik to detect it. An equally valid theory is that prothean touch-sense simply doesn't have the ability to detect indoctrination. Lest we forget, the protheans were betrayed by an indoctrinated splinter group, so we know that they can be fooled.

I'm pretty sure after that betrayal, Javik would know how indoctrination works.

From the codex:

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 

The limbic system has access to all sorts of different emotions, visions, and other mental tasks, including dreaming. In particular, there are studies linking it to threatening/dangerous elements in dreams.

There's still no indication that Reapers are actually controlling Shepard.

Only "evidence" that was shown can be put at lazy level design and cinematic convenience.

We know a lot of things about indoctrination, but we do not know what sort of strain, if any, it puts on the Reaper(s) doing it. We know from ME1 that any sort of direct control / attack consumes enough of a Reaper's focus to weaken/distract it - which is exactly how we killed Sovereign.

How is that fits my argument at all?

The codex explains that "rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks." Bear in mind that it is not the rapid indoctrination that takes days or weeks: it is the decaying effects of that indoctrination: physical weakness and loss of higher mental capacity.

Harbinger is one of the largest and most powerful Reapers we know of.It is not unreasonable to assume that his indoctrination abilities are powerful enough to attempt rapid indoctrination with Shepard, especially in his physically weakened, unconscious state. He isn't necessarily concerned with the long-term use of Shepard: he only needs to indoctrinate him long enough to create a few critical mistakes, harnessing Shepard's position of influence among the allied fleets.

That's just a speculation on your part.

We still haven't see any difference of indoctrination of simple Reaper artifact and a capital ship.

No, really.

It took weeks or months for Dr. Armada Kenson to be indoctrinated by an artifact, same time for Benezia on Sovereign.

We know of at least one confirmed case of an organic reversing the effects of indoctrination: Shiala. She fell under Sovereign's indoctrination, but was traded to the Thorian in exchange for knowledge of the Cipher. It is not clearly explained how, but Sovereign's indoctrination was supplanted by the Thorian's unique control mechanism (which bears a lot of similarities and serves as a useful, if not perfectly transferrable, analogue to indoctrination).

When the Thorian was killed, Shiala was set free of its control, leaving her in charge of her own actions. In fact, Shiala and the other released thralls on Feros were able to use the remaining traces of the Thorian's "indoctrination" to enhance their own communications, turning a ragtag group of militia into a powerful military force capable of fighting against the Reaper threat. Shiala seems to acknowledge that there are still traces of her indoctrination present, as she can feel the Reapers' influence in her mind, but that she is able to wholly resist these influences because of her Thorian-given connection to the other colonists.

We have no idea how Thorian ever worked.

As far as we know, Shiala is just a clone of her former self that got freed from Reaper indocrination do to Thorian.

We also know of at least one case of an organic being resisting Reaper indoctrination with almost perfect results: the Rachni Queen. We know that it is not simply a biological immunity, as her spawn as easily indoctrinated by the Reapers, and other queens appear to have been indoctrinated during the Rachni Wars. But for unexplained reasons (presumably, the tremendous amount of mental fortitude required to manage a hivemind), this particular Rachni Queen resisted Reaper indoctrinate so perfectly that the Reapers resorted to physical restraints.

Or Rachni Queens are immune to indoctrination, but just like one from Noveria, Rachni Queen from Rachni Wars was also captured and forced to reproduce her children to fight that war.