306 réponses à ce sujet

[Bruddajakka]

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

[IronSabbath88]

Nobody is resistant to indoctrination, that thinking is just absurd.

Sure, he's strong willed, everyone mentions that from all three games. But look at what's happening in Mass Effect 3, mental decay is kicking in. Even the strongest wills have their limits.

[Iwillbeback]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

But he is indoctrinated, the little kid proves it.
The Reaper device on arrival proves it, must be why they put that scene in the game.

[Bruddajakka]

All the little kid proves is that he seems to be suffering from survivors guilt, and he seems to have PTSD.

[heathxxx]

Well, if it isn't indoctrination, then the ending of ME3 just became the worst jumble of off-tangent nonsense in gaming history.

I'm afraid that the indoctrination line is the only one that makes any real sense at this stage.

But that's just my opinion. Don't go telling anyone...

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Why can't someone be resistant to it Shepard's will can survive a lot of **** an entire species download the deaths of millions etc. He has so many outside forces his tech dying the cipher it's easy to theorize he could be resistant to indoctrination considering he never showed any signs of indoctrination until the child in ME3 and that's only theory no one who isn't a fan of a indoctrination theory believes for even a second that the child has any significance or that Shepard had gone through any indoctrination before the illusive man. Not to mention that he resisted that. There was probably more involving THAT scene which actually had to do with indoctrination but EA pushed Bioware or the lead writer did something to force it out. The reason the indoctrination theory is so lame is you're trying to just throw all these little bugs and coincidences in the game and make them into a saving grace for the lead writers. They screwed up call a spade a spade love the game for what it is and accept that the lead writer was being pompous at the time.

Or you know shepard can fall through the world and we can add that to the indoctrination theory. Oh shepard had a dream where he fell through the world because the reapers were trying to indoctrinate him.

But hey everyone thinks differently. I find your theory silly you find my silly and the world continues.

[Jaze55]

Iwillbeback wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

But he is indoctrinated, the little kid proves it.
The Reaper device on arrival proves it, must be why they put that scene in the game.

You do know if you load a save where you didn't play Arrival the game considers that Shepard did NOT at all go near Proj Rho right? A different Alliance team went there. Not Shepard. 

Or just do a default playthrough. Shep never heard of of seen project Rho.  

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Iwillbeback wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

But he is indoctrinated, the little kid proves it.
The Reaper device on arrival proves it, must be why they put that scene in the game.

I don't know how many times I gotta explain it so I'll just say it once more. The child..is just a child. Have you ever seen a sci fi movie they always pick a form most compatable to Shepard. It's survivors guilt nothing more this kid was the ONE organic he could openly save without having to sacrifice someone else but he screwed it up. The child is dead. He's never coming back. That weighed on Shepard's concious the dreams are his failure and the shadows represent all the people he didn't know who died due to his powerlessness. Thessia, Palavan, Eden Prime, etc. I don't understand why "He feels powerless and guilty" is less likely than "SUPER REAPER MAGIC DREAM FUNTIME YAYYYYYY"

Also Object Rho doesn't mean a damn thing it's a DLC an important one granted but the timer easter egg.

Modifié par ShepardTheHopeful, 23 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[Sefriol]

Proving your own points in these forums is totally waste of your time. They won't buy it even if you were right.

Bioware has already said that there wont be post ending dlc so Indoctrination theory would be the biggest plot hole in the game.
Plus, every post Bioware does indicates more and more that theory isn't true/planned.

And why do you people even support it? It's like saying that the last 20 minutes of the game were just a dream. Think twice how stupid it sounds.
Current ending has plot holes and stuff, but indoctheory would make it even worse.

[Bruddajakka]

Meh the ending seem to come down to

1. Space Hey-Zeus scarificing himself for our sins in one, and then everyone has a little Shepard inside them.

2. "No Shepard your are the reapers. And then Shepard was the Reapers."

3. And let's kill all the synthetics in the other even though some of your friends are synthetic, and Shepards half robot so he should be dead too but not if you play enough multiplayer

[TheHoneyRuns]

For the love of the Emergency Induction Port and all that is holy, the goddam kid does not *prove* Indoctrination! It's just a friggin' symbolic, tearjerker theme, man. You want to make people cry? Kill a little white kid! Hollywood's been doing it for years. This is ridiculous, the kid is just a storytelling tool. Not a particularly good one, but useful nonetheless. I still teared up like a wee lil girl.

Modifié par TheHoneyRuns, 23 mars 2012 - 11:04 .

[justafan]

While on the subject, I think it is undeniable that Shepard is indoctrinated on one level or another. How else would TIM be able to force Shepard to shoot anderson? I always thought that TIM was using what he learned from Sanctuary to influence the reaper tech already in Shepard and Anderson to pull off that stunt at the control panel.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Look the truth is no theory works the ending makes sense but it's overly analytic and pompous from the writers it doesn't make the indoctrination theory right. It doesn't make my union theory right. It makes the writer wrong, it's their story to tell. We should be luck they're willing to listen to us and not be ****s about their mistake.

[Bruddajakka]

Though to be fair I think the kid could be a hallucination caused by stress since Shepard seems to be the only one who can see him.

[darkiddd]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

Because he hasn't spend too much time near the reapers until Arrival, where he was unconscious for two days in full contact with a reaper artifact. Besides the indoctrination effect is accumulative, you don't delete it even if time passes so the contact with sovereign, the derelict reaper, harbinger and the collectors, and all the reapers in ME3 has also contributed to this process, and I call it process because that's it. This hallucination is still a process to your full indoctrination and the choice you take defines if you still resist or your motivations and objectives are finally confused and transformed fulfilling your indoctrination.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

justafan wrote...

While on the subject, I think it is undeniable that Shepard is indoctrinated on one level or another. How else would TIM be able to force Shepard to shoot anderson? I always thought that TIM was using what he learned from Sanctuary to influence the reaper tech already in Shepard and Anderson to pull off that stunt at the control panel.

once agian Shepard has no reaper tech in him. He never had any never will have any...ya know unless you pick blue or green. 

[darkiddd]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Though to be fair I think the kid could be a hallucination caused by stress since Shepard seems to be the only one who can see him.

In Arrival you could hear on some records how all the indoctrinated personnel was having weird dreams with strange voices and images. You could also say that was stress right? 

Yes Shepard is stressed and tired in ME3 but that is just another ingredient in the cocktail thay facilitates his indoctrination .

[Trojan_33]

SORRY ABOUT THE WALL O' TEXT, I JUST WANT TO THOROUGHLY ADDRESS THIS:

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?   No. Javik says that some of his people betrayed them AT THE VERY END, before he went into the stasis pod. So no, they obviously couldn't fully detect indoctrination.

Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?

How does someone 'look' indoctrinated? Saren was fully on the Reaper's side and know one could tell in ME1 by physical appearance. This is one of the weaker points of indoctrination, regardless.

2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?

First off, he reads genetic markers and genetic memory through touch. He doesn't know exactly what Grunt looks like when he meets him in ME3. Also, there are levels of indoctrination subtle and encroaching to husk level control. Javik only touches Shepherd 3 times I believe, and they are all at the beginning of the game before Shepherd was beginning to really be affected by it.


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind? Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

Wow, you are approaching indoctrination like its flipping a switch. Benezia herself said that it was subtle at first. She was far along in the process and she could only fight it temporarily because of her immense mental power.

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated. So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?

Again, you're looking at indoc like its a light switch(on/off). There are degrees of it. Hence the words, 'subtle' 'slowly' 'and insidious' to describe it.


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds. Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole. 

This relates to your view point of indoctrination being an on/off thing again. It takes time to indoctrinate people, blowing things up is instant.


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades. And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated. 

Where in the hell did you get 3 decades from? Saren hasn't had reaper implants for his entire life as a Spectre. He found Sovereign within the last year or so before ME1. Implants themselves are not Reaper tech. Indoctrination also doesn't require implants at all to work. The Illusive man had implants in his body on his own dime, not from a Reaper. Shepherd has implants all through his body  during Project Lazarus, until now. Again, not Reaper tech.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?And he was dead for 2 years!  See above.

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?   See above.

6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out. You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that. Again, this indictive of you not accepting that there are levels of indoctrination. Saren gives a speech about it, saying that the more indoctrination, the less capable you are...also indicating that Reapers control how fast someone can be indoctrinated even when they are all around you (you living inside them).

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination. Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!  See above and answer to 5. It is possible to resist them and thereby break their hold on you, albeit temporary if you are really far along (Benezia).

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes. Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide. Which would solve, you know, NOTHING! My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as. But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character. You don't do that! 

Indoctrination at its heart, is accepting some lie that the Reapers are telling you as truth. It doesn't have to be full and direct control. They wouldn't even want that in some cases. So for them to be able to bring Shepherd to their side would require getting him to ACCEPT THE LIE AS TRUTH. If this were to happen they could break the morale of the entire Galaxy looking up to him as soon as he said something along the lines of, "I'm sorry, but we just can't win this folks.."


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic, but that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary. Not possible with organics.

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no. According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive. In other words, still organic just with extra parts.

Your entire attempt to debunk is based off of a very limited view of how indoctrination works. So this conclusion was reached by using incomplete data, thereby making it inherently flawed.


Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct. And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.

Link it since you've seen it and we can go from there.

Modifié par Trojan_33, 23 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[justafan]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

justafan wrote...

While on the subject, I think it is undeniable that Shepard is indoctrinated on one level or another. How else would TIM be able to force Shepard to shoot anderson? I always thought that TIM was using what he learned from Sanctuary to influence the reaper tech already in Shepard and Anderson to pull off that stunt at the control panel.

once agian Shepard has no reaper tech in him. He never had any never will have any...ya know unless you pick blue or green. 

Something made Anderson just stand there and Shepard shoot him.  Also, I should have been more clear, I didn't mean the Project Lazarus reaper tech, but rather the nanites/mental control/ space magic / whatever the Reapers use to control their slaves through indoctrination.  After all, Shep and Anderson have been around Reapers for a long time, its highly likely they picked up some of whatever causes indoctrination, even if it so far was dormant.

[TheHoneyRuns]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

justafan wrote...

While on the subject, I think it is undeniable that Shepard is indoctrinated on one level or another. How else would TIM be able to force Shepard to shoot anderson? I always thought that TIM was using what he learned from Sanctuary to influence the reaper tech already in Shepard and Anderson to pull off that stunt at the control panel.

once agian Shepard has no reaper tech in him. He never had any never will have any...ya know unless you pick blue or green. 

Picked green. Swan dived into that reaper tech.

The only Indoc Theory that is remotely plausible to me is the stuff after the Beam hits Shepard. The black squigly lines, the stupid God Child, nonsensical plot devices, all the hullabaloo. But it's all conjecture. It's just poor storytelling.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

darkiddd wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

Because he hasn't spend too much time near the reapers until Arrival, where he was unconscious for two days in full contact with a reaper artifact. Besides the indoctrination effect is accumulative, you don't delete it even if time passes so the contact with sovereign, the derelict reaper, harbinger and the collectors, and all the reapers in ME3 has also contributed to this process, and I call it process because that's it. This hallucination is still a process to your full indoctrination and the choice you take defines if you still resist or your motivations and objectives are finally confused and transformed fulfilling your indoctrination.

I'm still waiting for the proof that shepard had any signs of indoctrination at any of these places. He was unconcious for 2 days due to sedatives not reaper mind control. If you lose the 5 waves you just get knocked out and Rho never does anything. Not to mention I doubt that object Rho has that much direct power. Indoctrination itself is done through CONDITIONING. The very definition of that is constant exposure and repeated attacks. Shepard doesn't go anywhere near a reaper after rho for at least a year. Harbringer is never there and the collectors have already been degraded to genetically being slaves there was no more need for indoctrination. They also stated the collector tect was different from reaper tech.TIM was calling the shots on his own granted he was like Saren under Reaper control to believe that he could control the reapers himself. But at the end of the day it was his own indoctrination ability that made shepard shoot people. I honestly doubt the reapers had anything to do with it besides giving TIM the ability. If you remember everyone indoctrinated with Sanctuary had no reaper affiliation it was TIM that did it all and TIM that was trying to prevent Shepard and Anderson from ruining his plans to control the reapers. EVERYTHING TIM did was for him to control and understand the reapers for the benefit of humanity he just went too far and suffered for it. This is true when he says "I need you to believe" It's not TIM being convinced by the reapers that Shepard must live. Rather it was TIM's pride as a human and for all he had sacrificed to prove to Shepard it was right. Eventually it became all that mattered so much so that he signed humanities death warrent by sending the reapers all the plans. This was probably done by indoctrination influence but the actions himself were illusive man only. Should TIM's signal be his weakened version (which explains immediate bodily control over mental control) it would make perfect sense that shepard shot anderson and was shot but remained in his right mind after he talked the illusive man into shooting himself in the head/or shooting him dead. Makes sense to me but hey when in doubt SPACE MAGIC! 

Modifié par ShepardTheHopeful, 23 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[Nimrodell]

Iwillbeback wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

But he is indoctrinated, the little kid proves it.
The Reaper device on arrival proves it, must be why they put that scene in the game.

While developers were talking about ME3, they were saying several times that Shepard will be more human now and PTSD was introduced. Listen to the voices in all three dreams and try to have at least 2 different playthroughs with different people dying on you - the boy is symbol of what was lost forever and of Shepard's fears - like s/he'll never actually have family of her/his own and the innosence lost in images of all those that already died on his/hers watch - PTSD and it actually follows the statements of developers themselves in early stages of ME3 developing process 'cause we actually asked for it, whined about it for 2 years on these forums. Shepard is mere human being and finally all those heavy decisions and years of battle have caught up with him/her.

And as I stated before, oily shadows in dreams only has sense if player takes for granted what Rachni Queen says since she's actually using different symbolic/linguistic code then humans do (Charles Baudler would call her yellow sour note figure of speech synesthesia - that figure of speech was wildly used in symbolism). So, no oily shadows are not the ones from dreams especially 'cause we now know that Rachni Queen was not indoctrinated (well, the one from Noveria).

And, don't forget, even Benezia managed to keep one part of her mind safe and locked from Sovereign and Saren - instant indoctrination just doesn't cut it.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Nimrodell wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I love how apparently he's suddenly indoctrinated after having been shown to be resistant to it in previous games.

That's what I've been trying to say none of the indoctrinator theorists buy it. Oh well what you gonna do. 

But he is indoctrinated, the little kid proves it.
The Reaper device on arrival proves it, must be why they put that scene in the game.

While developers were talking about ME3, they were saying several times that Shepard will be more human now and PTSD was introduced. Listen to the voices in all three dreams and try to have at least 2 different playthroughs with different people dying on you - the boy is symbol of what was lost forever and of Shepard's fears - like s/he'll never actually have family of her/his own and the innosence lost in images of all those that already died on his/hers watch - PTSD and it actually follows the statements of developers themselves in early stages of ME3 developing process 'cause we actually asked for it, whined about it for 2 years on these forums. Shepard is mere human being and finally all those heavy decisions and years of battle have caught up with him/her.

And as I stated before, oily shadows in dreams only has sense if player takes for granted what Rachni Queen says since she's actually using different symbolic/linguistic code then humans do (Charles Baudler would call her yellow sour note figure of speech synesthesia - that figure of speech was wildly used in symbolism). So, no oily shadows are not the ones from dreams especially 'cause we now know that Rachni Queen was not indoctrinated (well, the one from Noveria).

And, don't forget, even Benezia managed to keep one part of her mind safe and locked from Sovereign and Saren - instant indoctrination just doesn't cut it.

^pretty much this

[ArkkAngel007]

Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.

As a note to the rest:

Child is from PTSD.  It's in the script.

There is no such thing as instant indoctrination on a "whole" individual (aka not a husk).  IT doesn't say that happens either...so I don't get where people from either side are pulling that from.

Conventional IT (see: Original) states that there is an attempt at indoctrinating Shepard, not that Shepard is actually indoctrinated.  For Mesina:  It is not made easy.  Shepard has his resistance to it.  He literally has to have his "mind" tricked into accepting the signals.  Entirely plausible, but it's a different situation than what we've seen before, so we have no idea if it works like that or not with an unconscious individual.

Saren and TIM were always indoctrinated.  It was the amount of control the Reaper's were influencing over them that changed.

Anyways, keep those in mind as this pointless argument continues.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 23 mars 2012 - 11:24 .