The black oily shadows from Shepard's nightmares could also be a stylistic choice to reflect the dead, especially since, as the game progresses and more people bite the big one, Shepard starts hearing more voices.
Now the Squigglies on the Citadel; that's another matter.
Reasons why Indoctrination theory is terrible
Débuté par
CroGamer002
, mars 23 2012 04:37
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#252
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:18
JosieFrances
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Electric Pig wrote...
Indoctrination theory has less plot holes than current endings.
True, the indocrination theory makes more sense than the current ending, so who's to say no matter how many questions you have about it, that it is not true, it looks right now like its more likely to be true considering the amount of questions the current ending has left.
Modifié par JosieFrances, 23 mars 2012 - 11:18 .
#253
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:20
Colintastic
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This is a bit out of order, but Javik does not read minds. He can see memories. He cannot view present thoughts of people he touches and in fact asks questions concerning such thoughts. His only ability is to experience the physical experiences of others. It's how his people keep their history.
Shepard is by no means immune to indoctrination and has never displayed such an immunity. In fact, depending on your reputation, a simple asari can indoctrinate you. In ME2, unless you max out your para/reneg score, Morinth can indoctrinate your mind to her cause. If Samara didn't walk in at the right moment Shep would have been toast. the only exception to this is if you max your rep score out, then you can resist Morinth. that was an Asari. Now we're talking about a Reaper, which is far more powerful. Until Arrival, confrontations with Reaper artifacts or Reapers have been limited, brief, and during periods of combat/increased will. After Object Rho, Shep has had direct contact, and was knocked out for a long period. During this time, the indoctrination process started. The Reapers chose to keep it a slow process because Shepard would organize the galaxy and put them in a single place to be destroyed. The Reapers only kicked the process into full swing when they had to prevent shep's plan from being completed. Without his plan being completed finished, all he did was lead all the galaxy's warriors into a losing battle.
The only problem with indoctrination theory is really the game doesn't end then. Assuming 4000+ EMS and the destroy option, Shepard wakes up on earth, his mental battle won.... with a battle still being waged all around him. Those up in space are still all going to die. Earth has yet to be retaken, effectively Bioware ended the game with a cliffhanger.
Shepard is by no means immune to indoctrination and has never displayed such an immunity. In fact, depending on your reputation, a simple asari can indoctrinate you. In ME2, unless you max out your para/reneg score, Morinth can indoctrinate your mind to her cause. If Samara didn't walk in at the right moment Shep would have been toast. the only exception to this is if you max your rep score out, then you can resist Morinth. that was an Asari. Now we're talking about a Reaper, which is far more powerful. Until Arrival, confrontations with Reaper artifacts or Reapers have been limited, brief, and during periods of combat/increased will. After Object Rho, Shep has had direct contact, and was knocked out for a long period. During this time, the indoctrination process started. The Reapers chose to keep it a slow process because Shepard would organize the galaxy and put them in a single place to be destroyed. The Reapers only kicked the process into full swing when they had to prevent shep's plan from being completed. Without his plan being completed finished, all he did was lead all the galaxy's warriors into a losing battle.
The only problem with indoctrination theory is really the game doesn't end then. Assuming 4000+ EMS and the destroy option, Shepard wakes up on earth, his mental battle won.... with a battle still being waged all around him. Those up in space are still all going to die. Earth has yet to be retaken, effectively Bioware ended the game with a cliffhanger.
#254
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:20
ShepardTheHopeful
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ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.
Honestly my motivation is fear. You know how if enough people want something from a company people tend to get it? If all the people are shouting for indoctrination theory it's very tempting to just go with it. Hey some might be pissed but if a huge collection of the fan base is happy with this theory why should it matter. That's a cop out that's Bioware officially saying "We didn't care enough to remake it so we went with your theories yup they're right good job!" I'm just afraid that should this theory pass this is what my hope sums up to...that is NOT cool with me. I'm not trying to tear your theory apart so much as I just want people to see it from my side how this theory doesn't make sense in a lot of places. And if it was made an ending it would do more hurt than good. It's just an opinion of mine but it's my reasoning at least i'm explaining it clearly as I can.
#255
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:21
TheHoneyRuns
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ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.
Actually it's turned into quite the lively debate.
#256
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:25
TheHoneyRuns
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ShepardTheHopeful wrote...
ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.
Honestly my motivation is fear. You know how if enough people want something from a company people tend to get it? If all the people are shouting for indoctrination theory it's very tempting to just go with it. Hey some might be pissed but if a huge collection of the fan base is happy with this theory why should it matter. That's a cop out that's Bioware officially saying "We didn't care enough to remake it so we went with your theories yup they're right good job!" I'm just afraid that should this theory pass this is what my hope sums up to...that is NOT cool with me. I'm not trying to tear your theory apart so much as I just want people to see it from my side how this theory doesn't make sense in a lot of places. And if it was made an ending it would do more hurt than good. It's just an opinion of mine but it's my reasoning at least i'm explaining it clearly as I can.
I fail to see the problem here. You're genuinely fearful that Bioware will throw their hands up and say, "You got us! It's Indoc!" And what? Just leave it at that? The can't and won't. If they decide to cop out and say the IT'ists had it right all along, they'll still have to pony up the DLC of a real ending that isn't all made up space magic balogna. It's a win-win.
Or do you think they'd just leave it as is; a non-ending?
#257
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:25
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Electric Pig wrote...
Indoctrination theory has less plot holes than current endings.
#258
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:26
BornRed
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Here's my response
1. Prothean VI on Thessia.
During the mission on Thessia, Shepard isn't fully indoctricated. Efforts to do so wouldnt take place until the last segment on the Crucible. Therefor, there would be nothing to detect.
Indoctrinated persons also dont have a "look". Think beyond Saren and the Illusive Man, like the Cerberus scientists in the Arrival DLC in ME2. Plus, even if you accepted that there was a set "look" for indoctrinated agents, you could argue that Shepard's facial scars could be a sign of that, but simply assumed to be a result of the reconstruction. If you chose to patch them over in ME2 , they are only covered.
2. Javik.
He doesnt read your mind and cannot detect indoctrination. Protheans communicate through the sence of touch and thats what Javik is doing. He does not know each one of your inner-most thoughts but can simply get a deeper feel of emotions. Besides, if the Protheans could detect indoctrination like this, their own agents would have been singled out during their war which they were clearly not.
3. Why dreams?
Again, Shepard would not be fully indoctrinated until he/she chose an option other than destroy. The dreams are meant to give Shepard (or the player) something to sympathize with. They are a subtle way of changing Shepard's (or the player's) way of thinking. That way when the child appears at the end, you are more inclined to agree with what it has to say, making the probability of indoctrination higher.
4. Indoctrination is made very easy.
Its not a pothole. The Reapers need to invade or have the threat of invasion to make the entire possibility of indoctrination possible. Without that as a reality, their messages would be dismissed or ignored. Even if they managed to brainwash people, those individuals would be ignored or branded insane. No invasion, no threat, no point for indoctrination.
You need to remember that indoctrination is simply a tool to make the invasion easier and more effective, not the other way around.
5. Saren and Illusive Man.
I confess that i dont know where you are getting this "3 decades" figure from, and for all I know that may be true, but its still illrelivant. Again, think beyond Saren and the Illusive Man. It didnt take nearly as long to take control of others, AND the Reapers never have full control of Shepard. This wouldnt happen until the final choice wa
6. Indoctrination is permanent.
This would only be true if you accept that Shepard was fully indoctrinated and that both Saren and the Illusive Man were not. I think your understanding of the concept of "indoctrination" is wrong, and I'm trying to say that in the most objective way possible. Its simply a form of brainwashing, meaning its not necessarily perminate. Saren and IM were fully indoctrinated and it was possible for Shepard to pull them back. They didnt kill themselves because that was all they could do, but because they realized how wrong they were in their actions and felt shamed for not having realized it earlier.
Chosing to destroy the Reapers would NOT actually destroy them, but be a sign of victory over their efforts to take control. There would still be work to be done.
Side Note: If, IF, this is what BioWare intended to do, which I believe it is, then its genius. The Reapers arent indoctrinating Shepard, but you as a player. They/BioWare are attempting to exploit the average players feelings of rightousness, which is also why the options are presented in red and blue lights. Thoughout three games, blue has been associated with Paragon, or good, choices. Red has been Renagade, or evil, choices. Did you notice the backlighting on control/synthesis options vs. the destroy options? Hopefully I gave you some additional points to consider her.
1. Prothean VI on Thessia.
During the mission on Thessia, Shepard isn't fully indoctricated. Efforts to do so wouldnt take place until the last segment on the Crucible. Therefor, there would be nothing to detect.
Indoctrinated persons also dont have a "look". Think beyond Saren and the Illusive Man, like the Cerberus scientists in the Arrival DLC in ME2. Plus, even if you accepted that there was a set "look" for indoctrinated agents, you could argue that Shepard's facial scars could be a sign of that, but simply assumed to be a result of the reconstruction. If you chose to patch them over in ME2 , they are only covered.
2. Javik.
He doesnt read your mind and cannot detect indoctrination. Protheans communicate through the sence of touch and thats what Javik is doing. He does not know each one of your inner-most thoughts but can simply get a deeper feel of emotions. Besides, if the Protheans could detect indoctrination like this, their own agents would have been singled out during their war which they were clearly not.
3. Why dreams?
Again, Shepard would not be fully indoctrinated until he/she chose an option other than destroy. The dreams are meant to give Shepard (or the player) something to sympathize with. They are a subtle way of changing Shepard's (or the player's) way of thinking. That way when the child appears at the end, you are more inclined to agree with what it has to say, making the probability of indoctrination higher.
4. Indoctrination is made very easy.
Its not a pothole. The Reapers need to invade or have the threat of invasion to make the entire possibility of indoctrination possible. Without that as a reality, their messages would be dismissed or ignored. Even if they managed to brainwash people, those individuals would be ignored or branded insane. No invasion, no threat, no point for indoctrination.
You need to remember that indoctrination is simply a tool to make the invasion easier and more effective, not the other way around.
5. Saren and Illusive Man.
I confess that i dont know where you are getting this "3 decades" figure from, and for all I know that may be true, but its still illrelivant. Again, think beyond Saren and the Illusive Man. It didnt take nearly as long to take control of others, AND the Reapers never have full control of Shepard. This wouldnt happen until the final choice wa
6. Indoctrination is permanent.
This would only be true if you accept that Shepard was fully indoctrinated and that both Saren and the Illusive Man were not. I think your understanding of the concept of "indoctrination" is wrong, and I'm trying to say that in the most objective way possible. Its simply a form of brainwashing, meaning its not necessarily perminate. Saren and IM were fully indoctrinated and it was possible for Shepard to pull them back. They didnt kill themselves because that was all they could do, but because they realized how wrong they were in their actions and felt shamed for not having realized it earlier.
Chosing to destroy the Reapers would NOT actually destroy them, but be a sign of victory over their efforts to take control. There would still be work to be done.
Side Note: If, IF, this is what BioWare intended to do, which I believe it is, then its genius. The Reapers arent indoctrinating Shepard, but you as a player. They/BioWare are attempting to exploit the average players feelings of rightousness, which is also why the options are presented in red and blue lights. Thoughout three games, blue has been associated with Paragon, or good, choices. Red has been Renagade, or evil, choices. Did you notice the backlighting on control/synthesis options vs. the destroy options? Hopefully I gave you some additional points to consider her.
#259
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:27
Untold
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Rhazesx wrote...
With some space magic Sheperd has a special kind of indoctrination that no one can see, not Javik, not the prothean vi and not even the player.
That or maybe Harbinger is doing the quick indoctrination attempt like the description in the codex says. The one where it quickly turns the thrall into a gibbering idiot rather quickly. ~shrug~
#260
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:28
JosieFrances
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[quote]Colintastic wrote...
This is a bit out of order, but Javik does not read minds. He can see memories. He cannot view present thoughts of people he touches and in fact asks questions concerning such thoughts. His only ability is to experience the physical experiences of others. It's how his people keep their history.
Very good point.
This is a bit out of order, but Javik does not read minds. He can see memories. He cannot view present thoughts of people he touches and in fact asks questions concerning such thoughts. His only ability is to experience the physical experiences of others. It's how his people keep their history.
Very good point.
#261
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:29
ShepardTheHopeful
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TheHoneyRuns wrote...
ShepardTheHopeful wrote...
ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.
Honestly my motivation is fear. You know how if enough people want something from a company people tend to get it? If all the people are shouting for indoctrination theory it's very tempting to just go with it. Hey some might be pissed but if a huge collection of the fan base is happy with this theory why should it matter. That's a cop out that's Bioware officially saying "We didn't care enough to remake it so we went with your theories yup they're right good job!" I'm just afraid that should this theory pass this is what my hope sums up to...that is NOT cool with me. I'm not trying to tear your theory apart so much as I just want people to see it from my side how this theory doesn't make sense in a lot of places. And if it was made an ending it would do more hurt than good. It's just an opinion of mine but it's my reasoning at least i'm explaining it clearly as I can.
I fail to see the problem here. You're genuinely fearful that Bioware will throw their hands up and say, "You got us! It's Indoc!" And what? Just leave it at that? The can't and won't. If they decide to cop out and say the IT'ists had it right all along, they'll still have to pony up the DLC of a real ending that isn't all made up space magic balogna. It's a win-win.
Or do you think they'd just leave it as is; a non-ending?
I've seen it happen before with books, tv, shows, and games before, I'm just expecting the game to hit a soprano ending. But as a writer honestly it feels lazy you put all this effort into this amazing opera, and then you just cave and make this farce ending. I see a ending with more plot holes for the non IT fans but with the large fanbase sedated no more action would be taken. That just leaves us. Cold alone, no tali to keep us warm at night, no wrex to beat me up for hitting on his wife....just...life. WHO THE HELL WANTS THAT!! I mean if they're going to remake the ending id rather they try will full cooperation with the rest of the staff. I just...really don't want to wait and go through all this to be disappointed again. I got the ending the first time it makes sense it's not BAD so much as...unfufilling. I feel the indoctrintation theory isn't so much bad so much as it's lacking in depth...it's just not the mass effect I know and love if it was all a dream.
#262
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:30
Rencor2k
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DreamTension wrote...
Some good points brought here. I still like the indoctrination theory over anything else.
^
#263
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:32
Fishy
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They just wanted to give Shepard a more vulnerable side. They were a lot of talk in this forum in ME1 and 2 about Shepard never showing any emotion toward everything that happenned to him. He's was always like ' Well that suck but it's already forgotten' .
I mean he seen his friend die and so much death that you wonder how it never affected him in ME2.
He might be a soldier but he's human and no one love Universal Soldier.
So the best way they found to 'Show' it was by his nightmare. Which is a common tactic for movie.
I mean he seen his friend die and so much death that you wonder how it never affected him in ME2.
He might be a soldier but he's human and no one love Universal Soldier.
So the best way they found to 'Show' it was by his nightmare. Which is a common tactic for movie.
Modifié par Suprez30, 23 mars 2012 - 11:32 .
#264
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:32
Sepharih
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I don't believe indoctrination is what bioware intended, although it is my prefered iterpretation....but...
I don't know...why does Illusive man want to control the Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?
Mesina2 wrote...
And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?
I don't know...why does Illusive man want to control the Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?
#265
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:32
Sefriol
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Nauks wrote...
Electric Pig wrote...
Indoctrination theory has less plot holes than current endings.
If indoctrination theory was true, this game wouldn't have an ending.
#266
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:33
effortname
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Sefriol wrote...
Nauks wrote...
Electric Pig wrote...
Indoctrination theory has less plot holes than current endings.
If indoctrination theory was true, this game wouldn't have an ending.
Which is good, because the ending sucks. Do you see the reason people want it so badly?
#267
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:33
ArkkAngel007
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ShepardTheHopeful wrote...
ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.
Honestly my motivation is fear. You know how if enough people want something from a company people tend to get it? If all the people are shouting for indoctrination theory it's very tempting to just go with it. Hey some might be pissed but if a huge collection of the fan base is happy with this theory why should it matter. That's a cop out that's Bioware officially saying "We didn't care enough to remake it so we went with your theories yup they're right good job!" I'm just afraid that should this theory pass this is what my hope sums up to...that is NOT cool with me. I'm not trying to tear your theory apart so much as I just want people to see it from my side how this theory doesn't make sense in a lot of places. And if it was made an ending it would do more hurt than good. It's just an opinion of mine but it's my reasoning at least i'm explaining it clearly as I can.
I know other's responded (BTW I edited my post addressing some misinformation that I've seen thrown around), but I'll quote yours.
I understand people are worried, but the thing is, this theory doesn't provide an ending. It wasn't even meant to follow up or "improve" the turd we received. It was only a different perception to those who noticed things in the last few moments (Reaper tech eyes and Shepard's survival specifically). That was it. People have blown it way out of proportion.
I see the same people explaining that "IT" is a cop-out lamenting that BioWare may only clarify and provide closure to what we received, while at the same time presenting what BioWare should do. Wouldn't any idea presented be a cop-out? And they would still have to do the work in explaining what is going on and actually making the follow-up DLC work if that's the route they go. I trust that BioWare will take more care at this point in making sure that whatever they present to us, the complete picture is sold, from what we see to the actual lore.
And it is only a theory. The religious type of following I've seen concerns me quite a bit, because it does have flaws, and no body outside of BioWare knows jack of what is going on. So I understand why people have become increasingly negative towards the concept. But it is other's opinions, and they should be able to think that way just as much as those who want completely new endings and those who want it left as is.
#268
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:36
TransientNomad
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Vorodill wrote...
1-Maybe the indoctrination process start at the beam Harbinger shoot at Shepard at the end of the game.
2-The Protheans could not detect Indoctrinated people in their time.
3-Indoctrination is about Reapers bringing you to their way of thinking. It's not about control. They give you the option to refuse. If Indo theory is right, what we see is the first attempt of indoctrination.
4-They don't need to. They are big ****ing Reapers who don't care about a few ships. We are flies to them. Why bother with indoctrinating people first and attack later? The husks are a bonus for their invasion. The indoctrinated people too.
5-Indoctrination can me done really fast (but people will look like the Salarians subjecs in Saren's base in ME1).
6-If Indo theory is true, Shepard is not fully indoctrinated. He still has free will, like Saren and TIM. And I think they shoot themselves cause they have Reaper implants... Doesn't mean he HAS to commit suicide.
They scrapped an indoctrination idea that changes the gameplay. The Indo theory we have talks about metagaming experience, not gameplay experience.
#269
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:36
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That's because indoctrination theory has been custom tailored to cover up those plot holes.Electric Pig wrote...
Indoctrination theory has less plot holes than current endings.
#270
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:37
rivian_daemon524
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i believe the citadel ai is simply taking form that shepard can comprehend, is that so hard to believe? how does shepard undergo indoctrination after being shot? what about all the other people? the piles of bodies that are being harvested for the next generation of reapers? i thought an individual had to be in direct contact with a reaper to be indoctrinated, just like saren while he's aboard one through the first, and how do you suppose TIM gets indoc'd? because he makes direct contact while he's warning the reapers of the galaxy's intentions.
on to the 'brain pains' that shepard has when confronting TIM with anderson, it's simply TIM trying to control your mind, just as saren does to liara's mother, which is why she has 'brain pains'. funny how there's no more of it once TIM is dead huh?
on to the so called best ending(red). imo the green is best since it's the least selfish.... to cut it short if you all didn't notice, the reapers get the new framework as well, if they were still evil the fighting would still be going on and the sacrifice would be for naught. why would reapers just up and go after 'indoctrinating' one insignificant human?
the red ending seems so reckless, which is why it shows anderson shooting it up, since he wouldn't know what else to do, he isn't smart enough to make a good choice so like any other simpleton he just decides to shoot stuff.
and this half a breath short at the end is no way a wake up from the 'dream'... if it is then why is it so quiet? where's the fighting? does shepard's mind blow up the citadel? as said before, why leave before completing their mission of preventing chaos in the galaxy?
just doesn't work people, sorry if it's long but i had to vent eventually.
on to the 'brain pains' that shepard has when confronting TIM with anderson, it's simply TIM trying to control your mind, just as saren does to liara's mother, which is why she has 'brain pains'. funny how there's no more of it once TIM is dead huh?
on to the so called best ending(red). imo the green is best since it's the least selfish.... to cut it short if you all didn't notice, the reapers get the new framework as well, if they were still evil the fighting would still be going on and the sacrifice would be for naught. why would reapers just up and go after 'indoctrinating' one insignificant human?
the red ending seems so reckless, which is why it shows anderson shooting it up, since he wouldn't know what else to do, he isn't smart enough to make a good choice so like any other simpleton he just decides to shoot stuff.
and this half a breath short at the end is no way a wake up from the 'dream'... if it is then why is it so quiet? where's the fighting? does shepard's mind blow up the citadel? as said before, why leave before completing their mission of preventing chaos in the galaxy?
just doesn't work people, sorry if it's long but i had to vent eventually.
#271
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:37
BornRed
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Sepharih wrote...
I don't believe indoctrination is what bioware intended, although it is my prefered iterpretation....but...Mesina2 wrote...
And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?
I don't know...why does Illusive man want to control the Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?
Because they were able to convince him that he could do something impossible. He could never take control and the Reapers knew that. Having him chace impossible goals left one less obsticle for the Reapers to hurdle
Modifié par BornRed, 23 mars 2012 - 11:40 .
#272
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:38
ArkkAngel007
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TheHoneyRuns wrote...
ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.
Actually it's turned into quite the lively debate.
Don't get me wrong, I love the debating. This has actually been one of the more mature discussions from what I've seen. I just don't see how people believing in IT is any different than those who believe the ending is fine or that the ending is what it literally is. I disagree the forcing of those opinions and toting them as facts, but people are going to latch on to things and there's only so much you can do about it.
#273
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:40
ShepardTheHopeful
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ArkkAngel007 wrote...
ShepardTheHopeful wrote...
ArkkAngel007 wrote...
Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.
Honestly my motivation is fear. You know how if enough people want something from a company people tend to get it? If all the people are shouting for indoctrination theory it's very tempting to just go with it. Hey some might be pissed but if a huge collection of the fan base is happy with this theory why should it matter. That's a cop out that's Bioware officially saying "We didn't care enough to remake it so we went with your theories yup they're right good job!" I'm just afraid that should this theory pass this is what my hope sums up to...that is NOT cool with me. I'm not trying to tear your theory apart so much as I just want people to see it from my side how this theory doesn't make sense in a lot of places. And if it was made an ending it would do more hurt than good. It's just an opinion of mine but it's my reasoning at least i'm explaining it clearly as I can.
I know other's responded (BTW I edited my post addressing some misinformation that I've seen thrown around), but I'll quote yours.
I understand people are worried, but the thing is, this theory doesn't provide an ending. It wasn't even meant to follow up or "improve" the turd we received. It was only a different perception to those who noticed things in the last few moments (Reaper tech eyes and Shepard's survival specifically). That was it. People have blown it way out of proportion.
I see the same people explaining that "IT" is a cop-out lamenting that BioWare may only clarify and provide closure to what we received, while at the same time presenting what BioWare should do. Wouldn't any idea presented be a cop-out? And they would still have to do the work in explaining what is going on and actually making the follow-up DLC work if that's the route they go. I trust that BioWare will take more care at this point in making sure that whatever they present to us, the complete picture is sold, from what we see to the actual lore.
And it is only a theory. The religious type of following I've seen concerns me quite a bit, because it does have flaws, and no body outside of BioWare knows jack of what is going on. So I understand why people have become increasingly negative towards the concept. But it is other's opinions, and they should be able to think that way just as much as those who want completely new endings and those who want it left as is.
I'm sorry if I sound absoulutely terrified but I've traveled through the forums...and it just gets worse and worse some even claim the laser shot by harbringer is what causes the indoctrination...I just can't handle all the stupid and repeated evidence and plot holes...it hurts my head as a writer and whats worse is I STILL would like to write for bioware. Ya think this would be a deterrent lol. Oh well personally I like the space magic theory. A super powered ancient bruce wayne wizard created the reapers. "Because the synthetics broke his human toys and he got mad" The wizard is actually that annoying child and he was just throwing a billion year long temper tantrum. Shepard actually looks like his father before he died/mother billions of years ago. The kids immortal who cares why. And that's why he listens to you. GO SPACE MAGIC GO GO SPACE MAGIC GO!
#274
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:40
Sepharih
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BornRed wrote...
Sepharih wrote...
I don't believe indoctrination is what bioware intended, although it is my prefered iterpretation....but...Mesina2 wrote...
And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?
I don't know...why does Illusive man want to control the Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?
Because they were able to convince him that he could do something impossible. He could never take control and the Reapers knew that. Having chace impossible goals left one less obsticle for the Reapers to hurdle
Clarification: My point was that the idea that indoctrination simply means you're pro-reaper is wrong, and is shown to be wrong in the games. Indoctrination is significantly more insidious than that, and it clearly affects different people in different ways.
Modifié par Sepharih, 23 mars 2012 - 11:40 .
#275
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:44
ArkkAngel007
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Child is from PTSD. It's in the script.
There is no such thing as instant indoctrination on a "whole" individual (aka not a husk). IT doesn't say that happens either...so I don't get where people from either side are pulling that from.
Conventional IT (see: Original) states that there is an attempt at indoctrinating Shepard, not that Shepard is actually indoctrinated. For Mesina: It is not made easy. Shepard has his resistance to it. He literally has to have his "mind" tricked into accepting the signals. Entirely plausible, but it's a different situation than what we've seen before, so we have no idea if it works like that or not with an unconscious individual (where the attempts would be visualized within his/her mind in the suggested fashion)
Saren and TIM were always indoctrinated. It was the amount of control the Reaper's were influencing over them through the signals that changed, with it being easier to amplify signals once those two implanted themselves with Reaper tech.
Hope that clears a few misconceptions up and provides some things to keep the conversation moving.
There is no such thing as instant indoctrination on a "whole" individual (aka not a husk). IT doesn't say that happens either...so I don't get where people from either side are pulling that from.
Conventional IT (see: Original) states that there is an attempt at indoctrinating Shepard, not that Shepard is actually indoctrinated. For Mesina: It is not made easy. Shepard has his resistance to it. He literally has to have his "mind" tricked into accepting the signals. Entirely plausible, but it's a different situation than what we've seen before, so we have no idea if it works like that or not with an unconscious individual (where the attempts would be visualized within his/her mind in the suggested fashion)
Saren and TIM were always indoctrinated. It was the amount of control the Reaper's were influencing over them through the signals that changed, with it being easier to amplify signals once those two implanted themselves with Reaper tech.
Hope that clears a few misconceptions up and provides some things to keep the conversation moving.
