306 réponses à ce sujet

[BornRed]

Sepharih wrote...

BornRed wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

I don't believe indoctrination is what bioware intended, although it is my prefered iterpretation....but...

Mesina2 wrote...
And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?

I don't know...why does Illusive man want to control the Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?

Because they were able to convince him that he could do something impossible. He could never take control and the Reapers knew that. Having chace impossible goals left one less obsticle for the Reapers to hurdle

Clarification:  My point was that the idea that indoctrination simply means you're pro-reaper is wrong, and is shown to be wrong in the games.  Indoctrination is significantly more insidious than that, and it clearly affects different people in different ways.

I agree with that last part, but being pro-reaper would be a clear sign of indoctrination. If they are able to recruit you to their cause than you would be brainwashed, no matter how deep that conviction lies

[Sefriol]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
ied, but the thing is, this theory doesn't provide an ending.  It wasn't even meant to follow up or "improve" the turd we received.  It was only a different perception to those who noticed things in the last few moments (Reaper tech eyes and Shepard's survival specifically).   That was it.  

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who's trying to point this out.

[TheHoneyRuns]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Mesina, what does it matter what others believe in or took the endings to mean? Just curious, as I see people complain so much about people banging on about IT, yet then they turn around and attempt to force their opinion. I see that you're only just pointing out the flaws...but it just seems a bit below your usual activity on the boards.

Honestly my motivation is fear. You know how if enough people want something from a company people tend to get it? If all the people are shouting for indoctrination theory it's very tempting to just go with it. Hey some might be pissed but if a huge collection of the fan base is happy with this theory why should it matter. That's a cop out that's Bioware officially saying "We didn't care enough to remake it so we went with your theories yup they're right good job!" I'm just afraid that should this theory pass this is what my hope sums up to...that is NOT cool with me. I'm not trying to tear your theory apart so much as I just want people to see it from my side how this theory doesn't make sense in a lot of places. And if it was made an ending it would do more hurt than good. It's just an opinion of mine but it's my reasoning at least i'm explaining it clearly as I can. 

I fail to see the problem here. You're genuinely fearful that Bioware will throw their hands up and say, "You got us! It's Indoc!" And what? Just leave it at that? The can't and won't. If they decide to cop out and say the IT'ists had it right all along, they'll still have to pony up the DLC of a real ending that isn't all made up space magic balogna. It's a win-win.

Or do you think they'd just leave it as is; a non-ending?

I've seen it happen before with books, tv, shows, and games before, I'm just expecting the game to hit a soprano ending. But as a writer honestly it feels lazy you put all this effort into this amazing opera, and then you just cave and make this farce ending. I see a ending with more plot holes for the non IT fans but with the large fanbase sedated no more action would be taken. That just leaves us. Cold alone, no tali to keep us warm at night, no wrex to beat me up for hitting on his wife....just...life. WHO THE HELL WANTS THAT!! I mean if they're going to remake the ending id rather they try will full cooperation with the rest of the staff. I just...really don't want to wait and go through all this to be disappointed again. I got the ending the first time it makes sense it's not BAD so much as...unfufilling. I feel the indoctrintation theory isn't so much bad so much as it's lacking in depth...it's just not the mass effect I know and love if it was all a dream. 

Look, I agree with you entirely on this. Except, as a writer, what do you mean, expecting a Sopranos ending? Isn't that where we already are? I mean, really; the last shot might as well have been Joker looking over his shoulder in the cockpit of the Normandy. It's a very unfulfilling ending and brother, it can only go downhill from here.

...wait, that came out wrong.

Did you ever see Neon Genesis Evangelion? The fans of that show hated the ending, hated it with so much passion and fervor that there are two endings. The film ending, or 'true ending,' which is filled with religious oogity boogity and mystical allegory and what have you, along with truly terrible things happening to good people and bad people alike. It's rough, raw stuff that isn't easy to swallow.

The last episode of the series, however, is a ray of sunshine so bright with overexuberant cheer and such sacharine-sweet happiness that nobody takes it seriously.

Well, we already got the film version. It was miserable and unfulfilling and we raised a ruckus. Now?

I just hope whatever the implement doesn't make me cringe from the taste of sugar. And more than that, I'd like the chance to see things ended properly. But that's even less likely, I think.

[ArkkAngel007]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...



I'm sorry if I sound absoulutely terrified but I've traveled through the forums...and it just gets worse and worse some even claim the laser shot by harbringer is what causes the indoctrination...I just can't handle all the stupid and repeated evidence and plot holes...it hurts my head as a writer and whats worse is I STILL would like to write for bioware. Ya think this would be a deterrent lol. Oh well personally I like the space magic theory. A super powered ancient bruce wayne wizard created the reapers. "Because the synthetics broke his human toys and he got mad" The wizard is actually that annoying child and he was just throwing a billion year long temper tantrum. Shepard actually looks like his father before he died/mother billions of years ago. The kids immortal who cares why. And that's why he listens to you. GO SPACE MAGIC GO GO SPACE MAGIC GO! 

I agree that it's getting ridiculous.  It was a pretty sound theory at the beginning, but now there is so much crap being affliated with it to where now there are dozens of different versions...Oh well, damage has been done.

[BornRed]

Sefriol wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
ied, but the thing is, this theory doesn't provide an ending.  It wasn't even meant to follow up or "improve" the turd we received.  It was only a different perception to those who noticed things in the last few moments (Reaper tech eyes and Shepard's survival specifically).   That was it.  

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who's trying to point this out.

Last thing ill say for now, its not meant to provide an conclusive ending but set it up for a continuation. It takes more than a month to produce a DLC pack, and if this closer pack comes out in April, then it was in production long before the game was released.

[liggy002]

Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?


2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.


6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes.
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide.
Which would solve, you know, NOTHING!
My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as.
But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character.
You don't do that!


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic.
But that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary.
Not possible with organics.

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no.
According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive.
In other words, still organic just with extra parts.









Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.

Which is, you know, BS!

And this theory is just a speculation.


So yeah.
I will ask you people to throw this theory out of the window cause there is no Bioware's master plan to fix endings all along, they actually though this was a good idea.

Don't give them pleasure in trying to fill holes that Bioware should have done and demand from them to make FREE DLC to fix endings.
And by that I mean overhaul them.
Starkid, Normandy escaping and Synthesis ending have to go away.



This is Mesina2/CroGamer002 and hold the line.

1.  How are they going to update the VI if the Protheans are all dead?  Maybe they never got the chance to since they were all killed with the exception of Javik. 

2.  Javik does detect that your indoctrinated, he even says that you are fighting a battle with the Reapers and are losing because of despair.  Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated at that point so he is not a threat.  Otherwise, he would just go on a rampage and kill everyone he thought was indoctrinated which would be mass slaughter because a lot of people have been exposed to the Reapers at this point.

3.  Either he was dreaming or having a near death experience.  It was Harbinger messing with Shepard's head to make him believe that what he was experiencing was real.  The Reapers needed to trick Shepard first before they could indoctrinate him.  He is wanting to destroy the Reapers because his mind is still resisting the indoctrination attempt.  Unless you are tricked by the ghost child and choose synthesis.  Apparently, the Reapers can't force someone to accept indoctrination, even Shepard himself tells Saren that the Reapers are controlling him because he is letting them.  Maybe Benezia is made to believe by the Reapers that she can't stop the indoctrination, that is pure speculation because we don't see what goes on in Benezia's head from her perspective.

4.  Not really.  Can you imagine how long it would take the Reapers to indoctrinate every person in the galaxy?   Even if they don't indoctrinate everyone, it could take a very, very long time particularly if a group of people or species is very strong willed.  Each species has a different mindframe, keep that in mind (no pun intended).  Also, remember that the individual has to allow indoctrination and choose it.  That is a lot of people to trick.

5.  I buy it because Shepard was knocked unconscious and was in a more vulnerable state at the time.  Perhaps also there is a time and place for the indoctrination to be useful and the Reapers go all out at a particular time to serve their purposes.  They either indoctrinate a thrall right away as a shock trooper or for some other immediate person or they slowly work on somebody and unleash at the proper moment.

6.  Nowhere in the official canon does it ever say indocrination is permanent unless you are turned into a husk.  Just because a synthesis ending might show that Shepard may have turned into a husk, it doesn't mean that he will.  Maybe he will be at the same level of indocrtination as Saren and TIm.  Also, bear in mind that the 2 previous characters were implanted with Reaper tech and Shepard was not.  He had cybernetics but they were Cerberus Tech and nowhere was it stated that it was Reaper tech.  Also, both Saren and Tim had a weaker willpower than Commander Shepard.  We ARE talking about Comander Shepard here.  Maybe Saren and Tim just weren't strong enough to resist the indoctrination or maybe they just couldn't resist the Reaper tech which SHEPARD DIDN'T HAVE.   Also, I disagree that it would be stupid if they had Shepard  snap out of the indoctrination, it would show just how much of a leader he was even though he was facing seemingly insurmountable odds.  It would make for a truly emotional scene and would reiterate the theme that one should not give up when it pursuit of personal goals.  As far as having a party member finish the story instead of Shepard, I believe that some people would like that.  It would be unexpected.  Why does the main character always have to beat the game?  It's not your typical ending.  The beauty about this game is that you wouldn't have to choose that option if you didn't like so if you don't like the idea of it, then don't choose the option.  Let other people like myself enjoy that scenario play out.  That's the beautiful thing about Mass Effect, the ability to choose your own adventure.  This all is in direct opposition to the cookie cutter Hollywood ending we got.

Modifié par liggy002, 23 mars 2012 - 11:55 .

[Sefriol]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...



I'm sorry if I sound absoulutely terrified but I've traveled through the forums...and it just gets worse and worse some even claim the laser shot by harbringer is what causes the indoctrination...I just can't handle all the stupid and repeated evidence and plot holes...it hurts my head as a writer and whats worse is I STILL would like to write for bioware. Ya think this would be a deterrent lol. Oh well personally I like the space magic theory. A super powered ancient bruce wayne wizard created the reapers. "Because the synthetics broke his human toys and he got mad" The wizard is actually that annoying child and he was just throwing a billion year long temper tantrum. Shepard actually looks like his father before he died/mother billions of years ago. The kids immortal who cares why. And that's why he listens to you. GO SPACE MAGIC GO GO SPACE MAGIC GO! 

I agree that it's getting ridiculous.  It was a pretty sound theory at the beginning, but now there is so much crap being affliated with it to where now there are dozens of different versions...Oh well, damage has been done.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

The original thread itself had pictures where people compared textures and models from the ending and depaded how it provides a crucial fact for their theory.
Well not exactly, but more or less this was the case.

[TheHoneyRuns]

BornRed wrote...

Sefriol wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
ied, but the thing is, this theory doesn't provide an ending.  It wasn't even meant to follow up or "improve" the turd we received.  It was only a different perception to those who noticed things in the last few moments (Reaper tech eyes and Shepard's survival specifically).   That was it.  

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who's trying to point this out.

Last thing ill say for now, its not meant to provide an conclusive ending but set it up for a continuation. It takes more than a month to produce a DLC pack, and if this closer pack comes out in April, then it was in production long before the game was released.

Yeah, we'd be so lucky.

More like if it comes out in April it will be text scroll ala DA:O.

"With the Shepard melted down into a fine goo, his companions went their different ways. That is, they attempted to until they realized they were stranded without the Mass Relays, the group dissolved from infighting, Wrex impregnated Liara and ate everyone else. Have a nice summer, folks."

[rivian_daemon524]

BornRed wrote...

Sefriol wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...
ied, but the thing is, this theory doesn't provide an ending.  It wasn't even meant to follow up or "improve" the turd we received.  It was only a different perception to those who noticed things in the last few moments (Reaper tech eyes and Shepard's survival specifically).   That was it.  

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who's trying to point this out.

Last thing ill say for now, its not meant to provide an conclusive ending but set it up for a continuation. It takes more than a month to produce a DLC pack, and if this closer pack comes out in April, then it was in production long before the game was released.

maybe that's why there's text saying that you destroyed the reapers blah blah not the last you'll see of shepard. you make a good point.

[heathxxx]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Each question incorrectly framed.

Assumes already Indoctrinated.

Therefore answer or argument is useless. Premise of inquiry flawed, so only need to answer is pointing out of mistake.

Would recommend understanding theory, before attempting to refute.

Now that's a smartass way to brush off my arguments.

Now that's a fantastic way to miss the point of the Salarian themed response.

*classic*

Funniest two responses in the thread.

[Bruddajakka]

So I guess I'm the only one who things that the humming James was hearing is the prothean sphere from Firewalker that just happened to be in a crate near his stuff.

[heathxxx]

Bruddajakka wrote...

So I guess I'm the only one who things that the humming James was hearing is the prothean sphere from Firewalker that just happened to be in a crate near his stuff.

Was that actually there, along with assorted model ships, or no?

[Iron Spetsnaz]

I wish people would just stop whining and ****ing and just accept the ending for what it is.

Although my only complaint is the destruction of the relays

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Ya know I'm actually fond of my idea for space magic now....get on that Bioware I recend my logical theory since everything at the end of Mass Effect 3 is LCD and Rainbows and Space Magic. I would totally vote to see Sheppard fighting a whiny brat space wizard and watching him cry and die...slowly....regretting all of his existence to be killed by an organic....doesn't make much sense but I think we'd all be satisfied just to kill that damn British AI brat. when will sci fi learn that British Child AI's or not clever, fun, or entertaining, they just suck and the only thing you wish upon them is death....i'm mad there's actually a reference to be made towards british children AIs you think ONCE would've been bad enough and other writers would've learned their lesson. Instead of me having to do a facepalm because people just don't farking learn!

[PsydonZero]

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...

why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing. But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?[/quote]

Clearly not. Also, you're assuming the Protheans would have been able to update their VIs to have a more fine detection of indoctrination.

[quote]Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much[/quote]

Indoctrination has nothing to do with how you look.

[quote]Guy can read your mind. Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?[/quote]

Same reason as the VI.

[quote]Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers. Why screw around with his mind?[/quote]

You just answered your own question. The dreams mess with Shepard's mind specifically so that she's more easily controlled. It's part of the process of breaking her will. Hence why the dreams, and all the appearances of The Kid, are about loss and failure ("You can't help me." The Kid always burns in her dreams. All the people she's ever known are just oily shadows and she can barely hear them whispering to her. She's lost, alone and completely powerless in a dead, empty dreamscape.)

[quote]Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all.[/quote]

1. Benezia's state of indoctrination was different than Shepard's at that point. The Reapers were able to control her body and most of her mind.

2. How do you know Benezia never had dreams?

[quote]Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated. So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?[/quote]

Indoctrination does not have a binary function--that is to say, it's not something that is either on or off like a light switch. Someone can be indoctrinated (their mind is being influenced by the Reapers) but still in control of themselves. See: Saren, TIM, Rachni Queen (twice over, I might add) and, of course, Shepard.

[quote]This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion? Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.[/quote]

The artifacts need to be found, interacted with on a regular basis and not taken apart in a reverse-engineering operation or destroyed for whatever reason, and no one must be able to resist their control and save everyone, and even then the Reapers still need to show up to harvest everyone. If they're going to harvest everyone anyway, then they'll just harvest everyone.

[quote]This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.[/quote]

You mind showing me evidence that Saren had Reaper implants for three decades? I was under the impression that he only received implants near the end of ME1.

As for TIM, dude is extremely strong-willed just like Shepard, but let's compare.

TIM's eyes were transformed into cybernetics by Reaper tech. Presumably his eyes slowly manufactured nanomachines that spread to the rest of his body and, by the time of ME3, finally began to turn him into a husk. Presumably during the rest of that time he never again interacted with Reaper tech, hence why his indoctrination was a VERY slow burn.

Shepard:

-Has been in proximity to, interacted with and touched Reaper tech numerous times even after being revived--in fact, even more so after being revived.
-Flies around and lives in a ship made from Reaper tech, with an AI made from Reaper tech in its systems.
-Was blasted by Object Rho.
-Was kept unconscious at Project Base for two days. Who knows what Kenson did to her then.
-Has fought with numerous Collectors, husks and Cerberus semi-husks (indoctrination victims).
-Has been inside a Reaper.
-Has Lazarus Project impants made from Reaper tech, for all we know.


[quote]Indoctrination is permanent.[/quote]

No it's not. The Rachni Queen (the real one) has successfully resisted twice over. There is no reason Shepard can't do the same.

[quote]Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid![/quote]

Not really. Even Shepard's indoctrination was slow by the Reaper's standards (months or years according to the Codex). They had all of ME2, the two intervening months and all of ME3 to worm their way into her mind, and even they they were only able to do it after Shepard was blasted by Harbinger, which caused her to suffer severe physical damage and appropriate mental damage.

[quote]Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.[/quote]

Actually, it supports the indoctrination theory. The notes say that they originally wanted to make a sequence where the player loses control over Shepard and watches Shepard's body do stuff against their will in real-time gameplay, but for whatever reason it was difficult to implement along with dialogue trees. I don't see why since all of ME's conversations have always been real-time, but there you go. If anything, that says very strongly that they intended for Shepard to be indoctrinated all along and altered the ending to go with this "dream" acid trip of subtlety instead.

[Fubarman]

Thank you for making this. I have my own point to throw in. What is the point of indoctrinating shepard? If you go from him being hit by the laser, he's pretty much dead. Even in the "he beat it ending" he doesn't even move he takes a single breath. 

I also want to throw in that the ending on the whole is lazy no matter what your theories. They really are the same sequence with different colored explosions. I don't know if everyone has actually watched them all, but it's at the end of angry joes 10 reasons we hate the ending video on youtube. Sorry where was I going with this, oh yeah so didn't some of the writers change after the script leak? I think it's possible that whatever signs people are seeing is stuff that was left over from a different ending.

And all the signs people are seeing have other explanations. 
Shepard moves as if he's in a dream and everything looks hazy. Well he just got shot with a giant reaper laser. Are you telling me it's odd he's not sprinting around like he was the rest of the game? You can even test this at home. Run full speed, headfirst into a wall. This isn't even close to what happened to Shepard, but I think it proves my point.

The haze on the edge of the screen when talking to the illusive man. He's controlling you I think that's pretty clear. You shoot anderson when he does his little thing. Plus you can convince TIM he's indoctrinated and have him kill himself, I don't think you could do that if you were indoctrinated.

Anderson's wound appears on Shepard. That's the side where his armor is disentegrated I think he might bleed a little.

Shepard's eyes change to look like Sarens and TIM when he becomes fully indoctrinated. Ok shepards turning into a machine in the control and synthesis ending. That's it really I don't think there's any hidden meaning.

That's the end of my rant. I honestly feel everyone that's so into this IT are just giving Bioware to much credit and can't believe BW would do this to us. Like when a mom get's a call that her son is in jail, he's not bad your just misunderstanding why he stole that car, punched that guy, whatever.

Modifié par Fubarman, 24 mars 2012 - 12:29 .

[Trojan_33]

Well, i guess my wall of text was a little too intimidating. At least the points filtered out in other people's responses for the most part.

[Saremei]

I see anti-indoc theories a lot lately and I believe the issue here is people think indoctrination = direct mind control, when it clearly is not. It's influencing the mind of the subject. Changing their thought patterns slowly. Making them really believe they are doing the right thing. The indoctrinated have no idea they are so unless convinced by another. They literally believe there is no other valid alternatives to their course of action since other paths simply have too high a price to pay. (hint toward ending)

Indoctrination is not the same as Sovereign taking control of Saren after his death or Harbinger's direct control of the collectors. Both of those were due to the heavy modifications done to them by the reapers.

Shepard clearly is not indoctrinated throughout the game as his goals never veer away from the destruction of the reapers, that does not mean reapers haven't been trying to manipulate his feelings any. After Shepard gets blasted by Harbinger is when the indoctrination attempt ramps up. No harbinger's beam did not indoctrinate shepard... Harbinger's gun fires molten metal with enough force to destroy ANY capital ship and yet he specifically didn't utterly destroy Shepard outright. He made sure to swat every other fly in the area with extreme prejudice however. Reapers have advanced scanning capabilities to detect life. Harbinger would know if Shepard was alive or dead. He simply incapacitated him for a bit and assaulted Shepard's mind.

After the blast, suddenly things don't quite make sense. But ultimately Shepard is lead by Anderson, to a confrontation with the illusive man. Then after Anderson dies, Hackett's voice leads Shepard further... Shepard is essentially herded toward his meeting the star child and ultimately offered the now infamous options.

Controlling the reapers is painted in a very good light. Which Javik says that people wanting to control the reapers were part of the downfall in his time. Much like TIM in this cycle. The reapers want organics to try. Their minds cannot withstand the long term assault of indoctrination. Even star child hints at this, though words it in a less hostile manner.

Then we have Synthesis which is basically what reapers already are and do, just painted in a rosy way of saving everyone, making Shepard want pure organic life to disappear and everyone to be synthetic organic hybrids.

And finally the destroy option. The option which would see every last reaper undone. Utter decimation of all, with no possibility of the cycle ever continuing again. Undue weight is applied to the choice. The Geth, EDI, and all other synthetics or partial synthetics in existence are to die. Why? To deter Shepard from resisting the will of Harbinger. To make him believe that the reapers do not need to be destroyed and that it is the wrong choice to make. It is the only ending where a strong Shepard will gasp for air in the rubble of London, having thwarted the attempted indoctrination. The other endings do not feature this, as Shepard has given in to the will of Harbinger. He is better off dead.

[Shock n Awe]

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

Regardless of the theory, listen to the logs in the Derelict Reaper again. The point of indoctrination is that they screw with your mind to make you more susceptible to their ideas. Then they can suggest these and do things such as alter hormone levels in your body and chemical production in your brain to make you believe their idea was actually your idea [this is the process described in the books].

[Hydralysk]

I think the indoc theory holds up well enough that I'd gladly take it over the current ending as long as the continuation is well put together. It's not perfect, but I think it's the best possible option they have at this rate. They can claim they aren't rewriting the ending just explaining/expanding it and still give us the ending we need. It's not the best solution, but I think it's the best solution they have available at this point.

[DPSSOC]

Just want to say off the bat that I like Indoc Theory but I don't buy it.  I'm honest enough with myself that I know the only reason indoc theory appeals to me is that it offers a reasonably sound explanation that doesn't boil down to, Bioware dropped the ball.  So to all those who accept or support Indoc Theory be sure to ask yourselves, do you believe it to be true because it appears to be, or because you want it to be?

Now to address Mesina's arguments.

Mesina2 wrote...
1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?

We know that Prothean VI''s aren't perfect in their ability to detect indoctrination, otherwise Prothean sleeper agents wouldn't have worked.  To address the question of updated VI's maybe they were.  Perhaps after those first Prothean sleeper agents went undetected the Protheans refined their VI's to the level of detection we have today.  It's not a difinitive answer, sadly I don't have one, but it is something to consider.

As for Kai Leng I ask this, did Benezia look indoctrinated?  Did Shiala?  Did Kenson or that jumpy Salarian (Virmire) or Rana?  Indoctrination isn't always cybernetic implants and glowing eyes, it can be a great deal more subtle than that.

Mesina2 wrote...

2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?

See above we know the Protheans ability to detect indoctrination isn't perfect.  Perhaps Javik does detect indoctrination in you, he does point out that he senses doubt in you, and is just mistaking it for something else.  Sadly these two questions can't really be answered because we don't know nearly enough.  We don't know how the VI's detect indoctrination, we don't know that indoctrination leaves a marker the Prothean sense ability can pick up, etc.

Keep in mind (everybody) this goes both ways.  Indoc Theory raises a number of questions with no answers because we just don't know enough.

Mesina2 wrote...
3. Why dreams?
Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?

Because indoctrination isn't absolute control, never has been.  It's sublminal conditioning to bring about a desired behaviour.  Similar to the Thorian; acting against it's wishes caused pain, which conditioned the subject not to do that.  The subjects mind was still mostly their own, but conditioning kept them doing as the Thorian wanted.

Think of it less as mind control and more as brain washing, you aren't subverting the subjects will with your own you're wearing them down, conditioning, and manipulating them until they want to do what you tell them.

Basically Indoctrination is just a fancy sci-fi version of what I could accomplish with a car battery, a mild euphoric, time, and a complete lack of decency.

Mesina2 wrote...
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

Later stage of indoctrination.  She had become brainwashed by that point but maintained a portion of her mind that was still her that was capable of comprehending what had happened to her, if not act against it.  That's the part of her that was able to break through in her final moments.  Shepard may very well reach that point but isn't necessarily there yet.  Keep in mind Benezias indoctrination was most likely deeper than even Sarens because Sovereign needed her position not her ability (as much) where as with Saren he needed both.

Mesina2 wrote...
And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?

Later stage, indoctrination isn't a binary yes/no condition it's a gradient.  Saren on the Citadel is more indoctrinated than Saren on Virmire because Sovereign needed to shore up his control.  Similarly Kenson wasn't indoctrinated and gradually as it became stronger started to think more and more that the Reapers were the good guys, to the point she wanted to hasten their Arrival rather than delay it.

Mesina2 wrote...
4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.

The theory makes indoctrination easy?  A dead Reaper was able to indoctrinate an entire science team to the point of committing ritualistic suicide to become husks, and Indoc Theory makes it easy?  The ease of indoctrination depends on the effort being put out by the Reaper and the strength of will of the subject.  Keep in mind the STG team on Virmire was broken in a matter of days, maybe weeks.

As for why they don't just set up indoctrination devices for people to find they do.  In ME1 there was that mission in the Hades Gamma cluster where those people found an artifact and became husks and in ME2 there's object Rho.  The problem is the Reapers can't know when or where these objects will be found or how far they'll get which makes this tactic unreliable.

Mesina2 wrote...
5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.

Not all indoctrinations are created equal.  Again Benezia was fully indoctrinated to the point of zero free will much faster than Saren, the Salarians on Virmire were even faster than that, the Derelict Reaper, Object Rho, all evidence of rapid indoctrination.  Shepard, up until the final decision is fighting indoctrination (albeit subconciously) and the Reapers have just leapt at the opportunity when Shep is physically hurt and mentally exhausted for one last push.

The dreams, so says the theory, are manifestations of his subconcious battle with indoctrination.  As Shepard is exposed more and more to Reapers and Reaper tech the oily black shadows become more numerous.  The voices of lost allies are there to make Shepard despair, weakening his resolve and making him all the more susceptible to indoctrination.

Mesina2 wrote...
6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes.
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide.

That's what Shepard's doing up until the final choice (so says the theory).  Shep is resisting indoctrination throughout the games, he's being constantly exposed to it but he's been fighting it.  The final choice, when he's weak, is where he either gives in (Control, Synthesis) and becomes fully indoctrinated (point of no return like Benezia) or continue resisting (Destroy).

However this idea of a point of no return is a false construct.  Benezia, Saren, and Tim show that resistance is always possible, if progressively more difficult.  So even if Shepard chooses C or S and wakes up on Earth with Harbinger whispering in his ear he is still capable of resistance, but it's going to be a fight.

Mesina2 wrote...
Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.

Which is, you know, BS!

And this theory is just a speculation.

Haven't seen it, can't comment, I concede the point.

Mesina2 wrote...
So yeah.
I will ask you people to throw this theory out of the window cause there is no Bioware's master plan to fix endings all along, they actually though this was a good idea.

Again this is pretty much my position (weird that I spent this post arguing against you huh).  Much as I want indoctrination theory to be true, because it would mean the ending was a clever ruse to get us riled up for a big reveal, I'm of the opinion this was just a bad decision on Bioware's part.  They thought this was a good way to end the series and we disagreed.  It wasn't some grand scheme to pull a bait and switch with the endings it was just a moment of them dropping the ball.

However I've seen other companies stumble and Bioware hasn't fallen over yet, so I look forward to future products, though I won't be pre-ordering them, and hope that Bioware can get it's footing back.

[NoSpin]

This blog post on the ending is absolutely REQUIRED reading, check it out here http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/

But check out this little bit.

"My Thoughts on the Indoctrination Theory:
There’s been a popular theory that states that everything that happens after Shepard is hit by the beam is actually Shepard being indoctrinated, a form of mind control. You view the video here. Now there is a lot of evidence to support this theory, so much in fact, that I think that was the direction Bioware might have been going for. And you know what?

That would have been an amazing accomplishment. If they had pulled that off I would be down on my knees praising Bioware as the new Writing Gods, and I would be sacrificing my own manuscripts on a pagan altar built in their honor.

This would have been the gaming equivalent of the Unreliable Narrator, a literary technique where the narrator of the story lies to the reader. This would have taken that concept to the next level, because it would actually succeed in making the player betray himself. They would have indoctrinated us, the players! It would be an astounding achievement, one that would show the world the incredible possibilities of writing stories for an interactive media and would be studied for years. So it’s a shame that I think it came down to the cold, calculating methodology of corporate executives that killed this idea.

See there’s too much framework already in place to believe all the evidence put forward by the indoctrination theory is all coincidence. However, the fact of the matter is that what we got is being presented as the ending. If, by picking the destroy option, we had been greeted by Shepard waking up in the debris still on London and allowed to continue playing, I would be applauding Bioware so hard my hands would have been reduced to bone and fleshy pulp. And with all the bad publicity Bioware is getting, I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t just come out and tell us that this was the ace up their sleeve.

So here’s what I think happened. I think the writing team at Bioware originally had the indoctrination theory in mind, and the game designers were diligently creating all the subtle clues, preparing to pull of the most brilliant narrative effect in recent memory. Then they hit the wall…the wall of a looming deadline and rapidly shrinking money pile. Mass Effect 3 had already been delayed by three months, and properly incorporating the Indoctrination Theory into the game would have resulted in another delay. So someone without a shred of artistic integrity saw the ending sequence of the indoctrination and said “why not just make this the ending?” so they whipped up a half-baked closing cinematic, slapped it on the end and called it a day.

Further evidence that this decision was not made by the writers, is that none of them have come forth to defend the ending. Not a single solitary member of the Mass Effect 3 team has stepped forward to try and at least explain what the ending was about, plug the insanely huge plot holes left, or even apologize for so royally screwing up.

Of course that’s all speculation, but it seems the most likely scenario.

So Should They Change the Ending?
Absolutely.

A lot of detractors of the Retake Mass Effect movement say that fans shouldn’t have any say in how the ending of story is told, and that those that complain about the ending are entitled brats. The phrase they like to pull out is artistic integrity. Even the co-founder of Bioware, Ray Muzyka, used this term artistic integrity to defend the ending in his statement. But allow me to counter:

No one with any artistic integrity would have let that absolute debacle of an ending be released. No one. The ending was so inexcusable on so many levels, that I can’t help but laugh at people’s attempts to defend it by calling it art. As if Art were not subject to ridicule and criticism.

Not only do I think they should change the ending, but if my above hypothesis on the Indoctrination Theory is right, they probably want to anyway.

However, Bioware is completely in their rights to keep the ending the way it is, just don’t expect me to like it."

[ShepardTheHopeful]

You say amazing logic I say grasping at emergency induction ports. Everything about the indoctrination theory can be explained logically. Technically it's not even a theory it's the Indoctrination Hypothesis. A theory is something that's actually proven true through various evidence and confirmed when no alternate solution exists at the time. A Hypothesis is an assumption based off limited data. If you're going to spout this malarkey I ask you at least label it at the IH not the IT.

Edit: never mind you called it a hypothesis I stand corrected my bad.

Modifié par ShepardTheHopeful, 24 mars 2012 - 10:00 .

[Penitent]

Iwillbeback wrote...

It seems your only arguments are extremely weak ones.

The Protheans could not detect the Protheans who betrayed them and neither could the VI's.
That is why your debunk is flawed.

It frankly doesn't matter one iota how "weak" his arguments are; because you have no argument. All you have is conjecture on the part of fans attempting to reconcile an uttterly nonsensical ending with sanity. He doesn't have to debunk IT, because, definitively, there is no IT. Rather, you have to prove it to be; which you can't accomplish to any extent.

http://social.biowar...4081/4#10562768

Modifié par Penitent, 24 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[showes13]

I have not read everyone's responses yet, just your questions, so maybe someone already made the same points. But I feel that Shep is not indoctrinated throughout the game, rather, Harbinger is trying to indoctrinate Shepard at the end after Shep is knocked back while running towards Citadel beam.
It is then that we see this dream in which Shepard's mind fights indoctrination.
Why is Harbinger indoctrinating Shepard at such a quick pace? It could be a few reasons, maybe Shepard's contact with reaper tech had made him/her more susceptible to indoctrination. Further, Harbinger is kind of the reaper leader, so perhaps he has extra strong indoctrinating powders. Lastly, Shepard has been injured, maybe in this weak state he/she is more susceptible to indoctrination.
How does Shepard overcome indoctrination? In two of the three choices Shepard does not, but he/she does however in the Destruction choice. Shepard has a very strong will, stopping the Reapers has been a huge part of Shepard. I'm not saying it is easy to resist indoctrination, but if anyone can do it is Shepard. And if what follows is his/her last breath, then perhaps you can even say this internal struggle killed Shepard.