306 réponses à ce sujet

[kjir]

Indoctrination theory is unofficial. The official position from BioWare is currently that my intelligence is to be insulted by telling me to "build on that legend through continued play and downloadable content."

[CroGamer002]

Iwillbeback wrote...


The last 4 don't really matter.
Perhaps shepard is just different, you know special and one of the endings showed him beating indoctrination by being strong.
The prothean beacon may of altered something in his mind that makes him different.
Perhaps it altering his mind before he got indoctrinated changed him unlike Saren.

Wow.

You call my arguments weak and then you give me this weak response?

How hypocritical.

[loungeshep]

LOL @ gamers.

[CroGamer002]

Electric Pig wrote...

Indoctrination theory has less plot holes than current endings.

Have you read OP?

It adds even more pltholes and retcons then current endings!

[Leafs43]

Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?


2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.


6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes.
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide.
Which would solve, you know, NOTHING!
My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as.
But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character.
You don't do that!


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic.
But that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary.
Not possible with organics.

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no.
According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive.
In other words, still organic just with extra parts.









Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.

Which is, you know, BS!

And this theory is just a speculation.


So yeah.
I will ask you people to throw this theory out of the window cause there is no Bioware's master plan to fix endings all along, they actually though this was a good idea.

Don't give them pleasure in trying to fill holes that Bioware should have done and demand from them to make FREE DLC to fix endings.
And by that I mean overhaul them.
Starkid, Normandy escaping and Synthesis ending have to go away.



This is Mesina2/CroGamer002 and hold the line.

Point 1 has been discussed endlessly and has been completely destroyed.

Point 2, Javik says that protheans underestimated indoctrination because its far more subtle than they first realized. If protheans could read minds and detect the first sign of indoctrination, how can you explain collectors?

Point 3 is Harbingers way of bringing Shepherd under his control.  Again, indoctrination is supposed to be subtle.

Point 4 you are nw just stretching it.  The reapers try and indocrtinated key figures, not everybody.

Point 5, /facepalm?

Point 6, Benezia fought off indoctrination while fully indoctrinated.  Shepherd is never fully indoctrinated


It's like you just tried to debunk the theory because you don't like it.  Like a creationist trying to debunk evolution.

Modifié par Leafs43, 23 mars 2012 - 05:19 .

[CroGamer002]

Vromrig wrote...

Each question incorrectly framed.

Assumes already Indoctrinated.

Therefore answer or argument is useless. Premise of inquiry flawed, so only need to answer is pointing out of mistake.

Would recommend understanding theory, before attempting to refute.

Now that's a smartass way to brush off my arguments.

[loungeshep]

Also, agree with the OP, indoc theory is just beyond illogical to the point that's just some fan based fantasy to cover up the fact that they hate, HATE, how the game ends, so this is their explanation.

I would buy the "Shep wakes up on the SR1 after Eden PRime, and it was all a dream' theory long before some stupid thing about being indoctrinated.

[NM_Che56]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Each question incorrectly framed.

Assumes already Indoctrinated.

Therefore answer or argument is useless. Premise of inquiry flawed, so only need to answer is pointing out of mistake.

Would recommend understanding theory, before attempting to refute.

Now that's a smartass way to brush off my arguments.

smartass, yes, but you're missing the point:  You're assuming that indoctrination has been completed and that it can be detected in process.

[kyban]

My thread titled "If not Indoctrination, What about Reaper VR?"

http://social.biowar...ndex/10435599/1

Modifié par kyban, 23 mars 2012 - 05:21 .

[TheHoneyRuns]

I don't follow the Indoctrination Theory, but it would appear your completely missing the point, OP.

The Indoctrination attempt of Shepard, in the Theory, begins AFTER he's hit by the beam. He's alone. The Prothean VI isn't there, Javik isn't there, he isn't already indoctrinated. You've entirely missed their point.

It's still a no-go, but at least listen to what they're saying before critiquing points that don't exist in the first place.

[Wolfva2]

General User wrote...

Yeah.  The "Indoctrination Theory" is really just fans trying to make sense of the garbage that is the ending we actually got in the game. 

To get the "Indoctrination Theory" to make sense you need to cherry pick certain bits and pieces of the game.  Selectively interpreting the bits that fit the theory and ignoring the bits that don't.

It's very human to try to make sense out of something that is really just senseless.  It's a very human reaction, just not a rational one.  Or maybe "it is selectively rational" would be a better way to put it.

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, the video game portion of Mass Effect 3 ends once Shepard launches the missiles in London and Arcian's Fixed Ending takes over from there.

So basically Indoctrination Theory is just a conspiracy theory.  Makes sense.  I prefer thinking that Shep met the Catalyst (still trying to figure out where the 'star child' name came from, I didn't see it ingame); the catalyst created the reapers based on the belief synths will always kill off all biologics, and to forestall this he started the cycle.  Shepard broke the cycle by finally being the first to finish the crucible, by creating a synth that didn't want to destroy all life (EDI) and (in some play throughs) the Geth.  But that's just my opinion.

[kimuji]

Still less illogical than the current ending. The endoctrination theory isn't perfect at all but for the moment that's the only one allowing an almost acceptable basis for retconning all the nonesense that happens in the Citadelle.

[Jartek]

You make great points disproving the indoctrination theory, one thing is still a miss tho. If Shepard in on the citadel when u shoot the power coupling thing on the destroy ending, how does he magically appear in rubble gasping for air in what appears to be earth rubble after the credits? He goes from a space explosion to laying in earth looking rubble??

[Ultra Prism]

still its just theory, we need hard facts from Bioware to confirm it...

until then Hold the line

[kimuji]

Jartek wrote...

You make great points disproving the indoctrination theory, one thing is still a miss tho. If Shepard in on the citadel when u shoot the power coupling thing on the destroy ending, how does he magically appear in rubble gasping for air in what appears to be earth rubble after the credits? He goes from a space explosion to laying in earth looking rubble??

A super accelerated Lazarus Project MKII maybe? 

Modifié par kimuji, 23 mars 2012 - 05:24 .

[loungeshep]

How do we know its even Earth? That cut scene is extremely sparse in Earth like detail.

[GerojSvK]

Mesina2 wrote...

....

3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
....

Screwing around with your mind is the WHOLE point of indoctrination.

[Jartek]

I agree with TheHoneyRuns post as well. She makes good points.

[Iwillbeback]

Mesina2 wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...


The last 4 don't really matter.
Perhaps shepard is just different, you know special and one of the endings showed him beating indoctrination by being strong.
The prothean beacon may of altered something in his mind that makes him different.
Perhaps it altering his mind before he got indoctrinated changed him unlike Saren.

Wow.

You call my arguments weak and then you give me this weak response?

How hypocritical.

Most of it is left to specluation, but I'm actually basing mine off things that were based on how characters reacted.
The distinction of saren and shepard and the prothean beacon is that shepard interacted with it before he was indoctrinated.


None of your points are good, all just your personal opinion,
You should look into the games more and experience it more before trying to debunk it.


I don't know if you played Mass effect 1 but Liara made it pretty clear something was different about shepard's mind.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 23 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[Ii Thermetro iI]

I believe distance from said Reapers may well affect the indoctrination process, when Sheperd was on Earth, Harbinger was close by, able to further the very subtle Reaper-influence plagued in Shep's mind, however this becomes weaker as Sheperd leaves the sol system, whatever is left in their mind corrupts Sheperds dreams, etc. By the time Harbinger is literally in London, it can have greater influence on their mind.
The subjects of extreme indoctrination were subject to being very close to Reaper-artifacts for long intervals of time. Illusive Man had contact with one in the comics and had the Human-Reaper powering his own base , whilst Benezia and Saren literally were on Sovereign, and they were definite lost causes.

To be honest we don't know enough of the specifics to assume if the theory is completely false or if it is starkingly true, you do bring up some very good points OP but like others stated, we aren't sure if the subtle indoctrination that affected Sheperd could be detected by the Prothean VI or Javik, though Protheans themselves couldn't even tell who were reaper agents before it was too late. (Though it is worth noting that the Prothean empire was a mix of many races brought under one name, so it could of been any alien.)

One thing that does make me think Bioware weren't being clever and used something similar to the Indoctrinated theory, is the statements by Bioware officials like Ray M, saying how upset he was that the public disliked the ending, he wouldn't be as upset if the 'dream sequence' as it is being seen, was part of the plan...

[Spectre_Shepard]

all of your points can be pretty easily refuted, actually...

[CroGamer002]

Master Che wrote...

Mesina2.

1-3, 5 & 6: he's not indoctrinated yet. The Reapers are trying to indoctrinate him. It's a process. It takes time.

Then if he's not indoctrinated, then why this damn dreams?

One that you apparently get when indoctrinated.

4: There are several examples of indoctrination cited throughout the lore and the games played prior. Derelict Reaper? The Arrival? Cerberus? Indoctrination is a "real" thing (in Mass Effect). Why do they do it? The same reason why dictators don't just beat the hell out of everyone and "indoctrinate" the masses. They don't want to kill everyone. They want to control. They want submissive subjects. The Reapers do not want to kill all organic life. They want to make another Reaper and harvest. Like cult leaders, you need to make people willingly give their lives. Even Javik indicated that the Reapers tried to make nice as a lure so people let their guards down.

And you just enforced my argument.

Why bother to invade if indoctrination is that easy?
Just use those artifacts to indoctrinate entire civilizations, show up without any resistance from masses and if needed mop up who was not indoctrinated.

[LadyofRivendell]

All valid points, but hey, let me live in my own delusion. Otherwise I'd still be in withdrawal and sobbing from the ending.

[kimuji]

loungeshep wrote...

How do we know its even Earth? That cut scene is extremely sparse in Earth like detail.

There's concrete and very earthy contruction materials. It doesn't look at all like the Citadelle.

[Jartek]

loungeshep wrote...

How do we know its even Earth? That cut scene is extremely sparse in Earth like detail.

You also make a good point. I really wish BioWare would tell us what they're planning in April... Till we get a story without plotholes that makes sense, HOLD THE LINE!