306 réponses à ce sujet

[Leafs43]

Mesina2 wrote...



Then if he's not indoctrinated, then why this damn dreams?

One that you apparently get when indoctrinated.

Have you not passed 9th grade english and have not learned about symbolism?

[bwFex]

Mesina2 wrote...

So, that Harbinger laser can now indoctrinate people?
What?

 

I never made that claim. Read what I wrote again. I promise, it's not in there.

Indoctrination works better on targets who are in a weakened state, physically and mentally. Being badly injured and knocked unconscious fills both of those conditions.

Mesina2 wrote... 

I'm pretty sure after that betrayal, Javik would know how indoctrination works.

 

Oh, well if you're pretty sure, I guess the mystery is solved.

I had the chickenpox when I was a kid. That doesn't make me an expert chickenpox detector. Being exposed to something doesn't instantly mean you can detect and explain it in the future.

Mesina2 wrote... 

There's still no indication that Reapers are actually controlling Shepard.

Only "evidence" that was shown can be put at lazy level design and cinematic convenience.

Every single piece of evidence/indication that we present could also be explained by crappy writing, yes. One option closes loopholes and gives Bioware the benefit of the doubt, and the other exposes loopholes and assumes the worst out of Bioware. Both are only theories, and both require a significant amount of mental gymnastics to believe.

Mesina2 wrote... 

How is that fits my argument at all?

If rapid indoctrination requires a significant amount of a Reaper's energy/focus, it explains why they would prefer to just use lasers, rather than rapidly indoctrinate everyone.

Mesina2 wrote... 

That's just a speculation on your part.

We still haven't see any difference of indoctrination of simple Reaper artifact and a capital ship.

No, really.

It took weeks or months for Dr. Armada Kenson to be indoctrinated by an artifact, same time for Benezia on Sovereign.

As I explained, the official, in-game codex explains that while normal indoctrination takes months/years, rapid indoctrination is possible. That much is not speculation, it is fact.

Mesina2 wrote... 

We have no idea how Thorian ever worked.

As far as we know, Shiala is just a clone of her former self that got freed from Reaper indocrination do to Thorian.

 

That is certainly possible. However, we also know this clone contains all of Shiala's previous memories. For all intents and purposes, she is the same person: just in a physically new body. The person she is was once indoctrinated, and now she is not.

Mesina2 wrote... Or Rachni Queens are immune to indoctrination, but just like one from Noveria, Rachni Queen from Rachni Wars was also captured and forced to reproduce her children to fight that war.

Until we get Rachni War DLC, we cannot know for sure. Perhaps the queens were biologically immune to indoctrination (in which case we still have an example of a biological creature fully resisting indoctrination), or perhaps they simply resisted it.

Regardless, as I pointed out at the end of my post, it is certainly possible that if Shepard succombs to indoctrination by choosing one of the incorrect options, he must die to get rid of the indoctrination.

[Dominus]

Then if he's not indoctrinated, then why this damn dreams?

Dreams tend to involve ideas flying around in your subconscious, you know...like the deaths of millions lying on your every decision. I wasn't a big fan of those scenes, but that would be my explanation.

Modifié par DominusVita, 23 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[Lethys1]

 Under indoc theory, you aren't actually indoctrinated yet.  The Reapers are simply attempting to control you.  The Crucible is the final stage before being indoctrinated, so everything up to that point you are clean.  The VI wouldn't recognize you for that reason, neither would Javik.

The only reasonable negative I've heard is that the existence of the box ad for DLC at the end negates everything being an illusion, and there's no reason for the reapers to show you the consequence of your actions if you're just under their control.

[Vromrig]

High stress. Probes at mind. Shepard not having given in, possibly open to suggestion, particularly when asleep.

Still resists, until near death.

Near death state results in hallucination as Reapers attempt to present final solution to him.

Resists.

Theory does not state successful indoctrination. Simply attempts.

[Exolyps]

Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?


2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.


6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes.
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide.
Which would solve, you know, NOTHING!
My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as.
But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character.
You don't do that!


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic.
But that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary.
Not possible with organics.

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no.
According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive.
In other words, still organic just with extra parts.









Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.

Which is, you know, BS!

And this theory is just a speculation.


So yeah.
I will ask you people to throw this theory out of the window cause there is no Bioware's master plan to fix endings all along, they actually though this was a good idea.

Don't give them pleasure in trying to fill holes that Bioware should have done and demand from them to make FREE DLC to fix endings.
And by that I mean overhaul them.
Starkid, Normandy escaping and Synthesis ending have to go away.



This is Mesina2/CroGamer002 and hold the line.

1) So you asume the VI is updated? But nothing proves it, thus you can't use that point to prove anything.
Did Saren look indoctrionated?  Doesn't have to look it to be it.

2) He can, but Shepard isn't indoctrionated yet. And if he said all protheans have the same ability. So if he can detect early stages of Shepard, then why couldn't the Sleeper Agents be detected?

3) He is not fully indoctrionated, Harbringer is trying to indoctrionate him. I recall the Rachni Queen mentioning something about dreams.

4) It took years to get this far with Shepard, and if you play correctly Harbringer failes. Besides, Shepard is in a weak position, knocked out. This could make him an easier target.

5) I don't remember reading about Saren having Reaper implants for 30 years. As far as I remember from the first book, at the start of the book he had yet to discover the Reapers. But  I could be wrong on this one and the book actually is 30 years before. But I doupt it.

Besides that, we don't know how effective the various artifacts or implants is, nor when Saren and the Illusive Man got indoctrionated.

6) The "ending" is an indoctrionation attempt. If you play the game right, Harbringer fails. Thus, it doesn't matter if it pernament or not, he never gets that far.

[kimuji]

I don't get your goal Mesina, no theory is perfect though the current ending got even more plotholes and inconsistencies. In fact all what is told in the current ending can't be true regarding all what Sovereign and Harbinger said and did in the previous games. Are you looking for a better theory?

[Jartek]

what I want to know it how these space magic colored mass effect relay explosions don't wipe out all life in the solar system when they explode like in the batarian solar system at the end of the arrival DLC.

[thegame30]

People who just play ME3 will find the ending average or even good.
Sadly the majority of players like myself play the other 2 games. I find this ending just wrong and very disturbing.

I don't think this ending are salvageable but then again. Some of there writers have the talent.

[NM_Che56]

Mesina2 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Mesina2.

1-3, 5 & 6: he's not indoctrinated yet. The Reapers are trying to indoctrinate him. It's a process. It takes time.

Then if he's not indoctrinated, then why this damn dreams?

One that you apparently get when indoctrinated.

4: There are several examples of indoctrination cited throughout the lore and the games played prior. Derelict Reaper? The Arrival? Cerberus? Indoctrination is a "real" thing (in Mass Effect). Why do they do it? The same reason why dictators don't just beat the hell out of everyone and "indoctrinate" the masses. They don't want to kill everyone. They want to control. They want submissive subjects. The Reapers do not want to kill all organic life. They want to make another Reaper and harvest. Like cult leaders, you need to make people willingly give their lives. Even Javik indicated that the Reapers tried to make nice as a lure so people let their guards down.

And you just enforced my argument.

Why bother to invade if indoctrination is that easy?
Just use those artifacts to indoctrinate entire civilizations, show up without any resistance from masses and if needed mop up who was not indoctrinated.

1. The dreams are the subtle attacks of indoctrination.  It works on you 24/7.  It doesn't take lunch breaks or naps.  It's progressive and persistent. Forgive the crude analogy, but it's like cancer in that regards.

2. Your question ignores the fact that indoctrination has happened and we've seen in in past games.  It basically says that indoctrination doesn't exist at all.  We've seen it with Saren, the Derelict reaper mission in ME2 and The Arrival.  In spite of all of that, the Reapers still came in person. Javik indicates that the Reapers indoctrinated the Protheans, yet they still came in person and scortched the galaxy.  Indoctrination is akin to psychological warfare.  Something that miltaries use in conjunction with conventional strikes.

[CroGamer002]

Vorodill wrote...


1-Maybe the indoctrination process start at the beam Harbinger shoot at Shepard at the end of the game.

It takes days, weeks even decades for indocrination.

So you're telling me that Comamnder Shepard, person who has strong will to gain that Prothean cipher without going insane, ge'ts indocrinated instantly by a laser?

2-The Protheans could not detect Indoctrinated people in their time.

Well after that betreyal, they should learn how indocrination works.

3-Indoctrination is about Reapers bringing you to their way of thinking. It's not about control. They give you the option to refuse. If Indo theory is right, what we see is the first attempt of indoctrination.

...

INDOCRINATION IS BRAINWASHING!!!

BRAINWASHING IS SOMETHING IS FORCED ON YOU!!!

4-They don't need to. They are big ****ing Reapers who don't care about a few ships. We are flies to them. Why bother with indoctrinating people first and attack later? The husks are a bonus for their invasion. The indoctrinated people too.

Cause it's hell of a lot more effective and they always used that tactic( Protheans traitors on Javik, Rachni Wars, Geth Heretics, Saren, Batarian scientists who reserached billion old Reapers but got indocrinated and betrayed their Hegemony by shutting down it's defences...).

5-Indoctrination can me done really fast (but people will look like the Salarians subjecs in Saren's base in ME1).

Eh, no.

They would like those husks we fought in all 3 games.

It's called Dragon Teeths.

Those SalarIans in Virmire base were taken prisoners for weeks.

6-If Indo theory is true, Shepard is not fully indoctrinated. He still has free will, like Saren and TIM. And I think they shoot themselves cause they have Reaper implants... Doesn't mean he HAS to commit suicide.

They scrapped an indoctrination idea that changes the gameplay. The Indo theory we have talks about metagaming experience, not gameplay experience.

So wait, you're telling me that everyone who said that said Shepard was getting indoctrinated by those Reapers devices since ME1, one that he was exposed to, are actually full of sh*t but in fact Shepard got indoctrinated instantly by Harbinger's laser, but actually he's not indoctrinated but he still has dreams that you gain if you are indoctrinated?


Talk about contradictions.

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?


2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.


6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes.
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide.
Which would solve, you know, NOTHING!
My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as.
But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character.
You don't do that!


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic.
But that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary.
Not possible with organics.

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no.
According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive.
In other words, still organic just with extra parts.









Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.

Which is, you know, BS!

And this theory is just a speculation.


So yeah.
I will ask you people to throw this theory out of the window cause there is no Bioware's master plan to fix endings all along, they actually though this was a good idea.

Don't give them pleasure in trying to fill holes that Bioware should have done and demand from them to make FREE DLC to fix endings.
And by that I mean overhaul them.
Starkid, Normandy escaping and Synthesis ending have to go away.



This is Mesina2/CroGamer002 and hold the line.

 
AWNSERS TO POINT 1,2, 5,AND 6
The theory is not that Shpard is iNDOCTRINATED...It's that he is at the subtle early stages of it which it's unditectible. It's clear that it's only at the start because he still wants to stop the reapers.

Awnser to 3.Because it's subtle and indirect. The idea is for the person in the prosses of it not to know. Any other way and the person would figure it out.

Awnser to 4. It not make easy. Shepard had contact with the dertlct reaper, reaper tech and object rho....The effect is enhanced over time.
Add in the fact that the reapers them selves are living Indoctrinatio divices.  And the fact they alreay tried using indoctrination divised...AKA the rachni. It did not fully work.

[Makatak]

I don't need reasons.

I generally don't read fanfiction, and I don't intend to start subscribing to it now. If Bioware wants us to believe Shep/us/whoever was Indoctrinated at the end of the game, they'll tell us so.

[SirTerrens]

I don't understand (snuff) how some people start to debunk a theory that has no evidence but perfectly fills plot-holes. (snuff) The only evidence we can get is some DLC or explanations from BioWare. (snuff) Before that it is just a theory that perfectly deals with plot-holes while being based on the lore. (snuff) We can argue only on how IT deals with some plot-holes, but not on the whole concept. (snuff) Every successful dealing gives +1 to theory. Every unsuccsesfull takes that out. (snuff) IT cannot be debunked. (snuff) It can only have alternatives which have evidence or not. (snuff)

[Ck213]

deleted- screwed up editing somehow

Modifié par Ck213, 23 mars 2012 - 05:48 .

[TheHoneyRuns]

Jartek wrote...

what I want to know it how these space magic colored mass effect relay explosions don't wipe out all life in the solar system when they explode like in the batarian solar system at the end of the arrival DLC.

The Batarian explosion was just an explosion. The colored space magic explosions contained space magic. Duh.

No, I'm kidding. Everyone died, obviously. Logic dictates.

[kimuji]

Jartek wrote...

what I want to know it how these space magic colored mass effect relay explosions don't wipe out all life in the solar system when they explode like in the batarian solar system at the end of the arrival DLC.

Well that's easy to find an explanation... afterward. :innocent:

ike they are just deactivating themselves, more imploding than truely exploding. But I'm sure that's a bit of a retcon.

Modifié par kimuji, 23 mars 2012 - 05:37 .

[Jartek]

What also want to know is, if u can make gold the first 2 games... How with the last hurrah if u will the story ball is dropped! I heard something about different writers for 3 but still... Common!

[CroGamer002]

thegame30 wrote...

Some people try to say IT is wrong. I am the first one to admit i had flaws but i don't see anyone trying to answer 3 basic questions about the current endings.

1- How companions end up in the Normandy?(NPC who were hit by the same blast i was).
2- How come i have infinite ammo?
3- Why after Anderson dead we realize we are bleeding?(Almost on the same spot we shot at him)

Those 3 are the easy ones answer those and i have bunch more ready for you.

1. Plothole.
2. Cinematic convenience.
3. Shock that makes you not aware of your pain.

[thegame30]

Jartek wrote...

what I want to know it how these space magic colored mass effect relay explosions don't wipe out all life in the solar system when they explode like in the batarian solar system at the end of the arrival DLC.

Good point same ask that in PAX east please.

[Navasha]

Sorry, OP, but most of your points are invalidated simply by reading the codex entries in the game.

[NM_Che56]

thegame30 wrote...

Jartek wrote...

what I want to know it how these space magic colored mass effect relay explosions don't wipe out all life in the solar system when they explode like in the batarian solar system at the end of the arrival DLC.

Good point same ask that in PAX east please.

Because it was a fig newton of your imagination (indoctrination).  It didn't "relay" happen.

[Jartek]

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

Jartek wrote...

what I want to know it how these space magic colored mass effect relay explosions don't wipe out all life in the solar system when they explode like in the batarian solar system at the end of the arrival DLC.

The Batarian explosion was just an explosion. The colored space magic explosions contained space magic. Duh.

No, I'm kidding. Everyone died, obviously. Logic dictates.

 
Hahaha! Good one. :-D

[thegame30]

Navasha wrote...

Sorry, OP, but most of your points are invalidated simply by reading the codex entries in the game.

His clearly indoctrinated, but not by the reapers by Bioware and endings that dont make sense.

[MB957]

I dont think shep is indoctrinated. I think shep is fighting the process of indoctrination. thats the whole plot point as I see it.

the final boss fight is in sheps mind. does shep succumb to the process or not.

shep wasnt indoc going up the magic carpet ride. shep is either indoc or not...as per which shiny button we press.