306 réponses à ce sujet

[Reign Tsumiraki]

As much as you might hate this theory, the sad truth is... That the ending was so horrible people would prefer that it was a dream. 

And besides, it doesn't matter anyway. It was all just a bedtime story anyway for some kid.

Including the part where Shepard has vigorous intercourse.

[CroGamer002]

Leafs43 wrote...

Point 1 has been discussed endlessly and has been completely destroyed.

No, it wasn't.

Point 2, Javik says that protheans underestimated indoctrination because its far more subtle than they first realized. If protheans could read minds and detect the first sign of indoctrination, how can you explain collectors?

They could have realized their mistake.

And Collectors?
They are mutated husks like Marauders.

Point 3 is Harbingers way of bringing Shepherd under his control.  Again, indoctrination is supposed to be subtle.

And laser to the face is subtle?

Point 4 you are nw just stretching it.  The reapers try and indocrtinated key figures, not everybody.

Why just them?

And we seen them indocrinate people who are not key figures.

Point 5, /facepalm?

So my biggest argument against this and you just do that?

Point 6, Benezia fought off indoctrination while fully indoctrinated.  Shepherd is never fully indoctrinated

That's because she closed off part of her mind to wait for right moment to take temporary control of herself.

And if Shepard was never fully indoctrinated, then why this dreams who are appertain evidence of indoctrination.

Saren and Illusive Man never had any dreams.

It's like you just tried to debunk the theory because you don't like it.  Like a creationist trying to debunk evolution.

/facepalm

[CroGamer002]

Jartek wrote...

You make great points disproving the indoctrination theory, one thing is still a miss tho. If Shepard in on the citadel when u shoot the power coupling thing on the destroy ending, how does he magically appear in rubble gasping for air in what appears to be earth rubble after the credits? He goes from a space explosion to laying in earth looking rubble??

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.


That happen.

[CroGamer002]

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

all of your points can be pretty easily refuted, actually...

And you didn't do it.

Heh.

[TheHoneyRuns]

MB957 wrote...

I dont think shep is indoctrinated. I think shep is fighting the process of indoctrination. thats the whole plot point as I see it.

the final boss fight is in sheps mind. does shep succumb to the process or not.

shep wasnt indoc going up the magic carpet ride. shep is either indoc or not...as per which shiny button we press.

This, OP! ^ This is what the original Indoc Theory fans have been saying ever since we all started crying. They're a bunch of crazies, but you didn't address a single point of the theory. And it does fit that the only one Shepard survives from is the Destroy ending, which was what he went up there to do in the first friggin' place.

[CroGamer002]

Leafs43 wrote...

Have you not passed 9th grade english and have not learned about symbolism?

Symbolism my ass.

If this is symbolism, it's really poorly done one.

[kimuji]

Mesina2 wrote...

Jartek wrote...

You make great points disproving the indoctrination theory, one thing is still a miss tho. If Shepard in on the citadel when u shoot the power coupling thing on the destroy ending, how does he magically appear in rubble gasping for air in what appears to be earth rubble after the credits? He goes from a space explosion to laying in earth looking rubble??

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.


That happen.

So I take it you don't like the current ending too. You don't like the endoctrination theory either. What are your suggestions then? "ME3 has an ending that doesn't make sense, let's keep it that way" ?

[NM_Che56]

Mesina2,

Take a step back, a few breaths, and consider the alternatives. Go for a walk and consider the counterpoints to your argument. Especially about the stages of indoctrination and when it can be detected.

[Exolyps]

Mesina2 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Point 1 has been discussed endlessly and has been completely destroyed.

No, it wasn't.

Point 2, Javik says that protheans underestimated indoctrination because its far more subtle than they first realized. If protheans could read minds and detect the first sign of indoctrination, how can you explain collectors?

They could have realized their mistake.

And Collectors?
They are mutated husks like Marauders.

Point 3 is Harbingers way of bringing Shepherd under his control.  Again, indoctrination is supposed to be subtle.

And laser to the face is subtle?

Point 4 you are nw just stretching it.  The reapers try and indocrtinated key figures, not everybody.

Why just them?

And we seen them indocrinate people who are not key figures.

Point 5, /facepalm?

So my biggest argument against this and you just do that?

Point 6, Benezia fought off indoctrination while fully indoctrinated.  Shepherd is never fully indoctrinated

That's because she closed off part of her mind to wait for right moment to take temporary control of herself.

And if Shepard was never fully indoctrinated, then why this dreams who are appertain evidence of indoctrination.

Saren and Illusive Man never had any dreams.

It's like you just tried to debunk the theory because you don't like it.  Like a creationist trying to debunk evolution.

/facepalm

You must be trolling dude! You'r asuming things to defend that the theory is false.

It's like saying you can't eat potato in the future because maybe it mutated to a posionus flower.

[Ck213]

I simply reject the given ending, true ending or not.

As far as I am concerned, my Sheps are lying unconscious on the field as Harbinger
attempts a first indoctrination attempt of Shep using the form of the child Shep saw
die and has a strong emotional connection with. It's using that form to weaken his
resolve and make the choice it wants him to make. If Shep accepts the choice, he has
given in to the indoctrination process.

Destruction is the choice Harbinger does not want Shepard to make. He introduces it
first and give reasons not to make that choice. He moves on to the second choice,
Control. And then he finishes with Synthesis, the choice he wants Shepard to make. He
even defends it. It's the choice Saren Arterius made. My Sheps will make the
Destruction choice at full EMS and wake up back on the field because the other two
choices are losing choices. Game Over.

If this is not the true ending then it's a massive plot hole. You don't want your
audience walking away with doubts about your ending, especially questioning if the
ending ever happened at all. That's bad writing. It's a massive plot hole and I'm
jumping in because it's a better alternative.

Modifié par Ck213, 23 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[Makatak]

I'm kind of with Mesina on this one.

The "debunking" of Indoctrination Theory isn't so much disproving the theory, as the Burden of Proof rests on the people trying to prove that it exists; they just haven't really succeeded with me yet.

Based on the general atmosphere of 3, as well as several other plot holes throughout the entire story, I'm going to chalk the ending up to "bad writing" far before I chalk it up to "a supremely advanced written story that will change the idea of science-fiction literature for decades to come".

While, yes, Indoctrination Theory does cover /some/ of the plot holes, it leaves others open. Accepting that the writers are flawed, human, different from the ME1 team, and capable of making mistakes, and that there's significant hard evidence suggesting that the ending was rushed and poorly thought out, I think the case can more easily go to "bad writing" than "superior intellect."

One theory suggests that failure is an option. The other suggests that the writers are beings above failure, akin to gods.

[Makatak]

kimuji wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Jartek wrote...

You make great points disproving the indoctrination theory, one thing is still a miss tho. If Shepard in on the citadel when u shoot the power coupling thing on the destroy ending, how does he magically appear in rubble gasping for air in what appears to be earth rubble after the credits? He goes from a space explosion to laying in earth looking rubble??

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.


That happen.

So I take it you don't like the current ending too. You don't like the endoctrination theory either. What are your suggestions then? "ME3 has an ending that doesn't make sense, let's keep it that way" ?

Yes, absolutely. Let BIOWARE, as in, the people who wrote this mess, write their way out of it. That is what they have said they're going to do in April. They broke it. They fix it. Not the fans.

[NoSpin]

Shepard isn't indoctrinated, he is BEING indoctrinated. The final choices prove whether that was successful. Do want to merge organic and synthetics (Saren)? Do you want to control the Reapers (Illusive Man)? Both being what the reapers want you to pick and the indoctrinated choices. You see things from their way now.

Or do you push through and still destroy them? Indoctrination failed, Shep isn't under their control, your dialog choices in the final DLC or ME4 will be without reaper influence.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

OK ok i'm glad to help and logically point out against any indoctrination theories in a professional and civil manner to help this guy. I do agree with him that the indoctrination theory isn't as logically sound as a lot of people want to believe and i'd be happy to answer any question to help. If you guys have any specific questions I'll do what I can I just really don't want to sit here and read 4 pages to find out what's been discussed lol.

[kimuji]

Sion1138 wrote...

My previous post. Anyone got an opinion on that?

My opinion is that it might be true but also that when you are looking for evidence in every little detail you can almost explain or justify anything if you are smart enough, so...

[thegame30]

Oh Marauder Shields I should had let you kill me... I didn't know, I just didn't .

[dreman9999]

 @
Mesina2
The contact that starts the indoctrination is not from harbinger at the end of the game. It's the year of contact with reaper tech. From Sovergin to the drelict repear, to project rho in the arrival dlc.

The idea is that it just starting to happen. It's at it early stages. If the VI could fully detect it....The prothenes whould have finished the crucible. The drams are subtle indoctrination attemps. Which is how it works.

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

ANYONE THAT THINK IT STILL MAKE NO SENSE...WATCH THIS...

Modifié par dreman9999, 23 mars 2012 - 05:56 .

[demersel]

Those are not evidence. Those are just lots of speculation from everyone. )))

[jvara]

Well I understand about indoctrination is that they don't "force" you to to anything but make you believe what you're doing by helping the reapers is help your own cause, that's what happens with Saren at ME1, although it does not fit Benezia's scene but it's seen like this again (or at least that's what my brother told me anyway, as I didn't read the novels) in the novels. So I think the whole point on the indoctrination theory is that Shepard is being mischieved to see things that ain't really happening or something like that, aw anyway, I don't like indoctrination theory either and I don't think bioware planned for it in any case, it's jus plain bad writing

[kimuji]

Makatak wrote...

Yes, absolutely. Let BIOWARE, as in, the people who wrote this mess, write their way out of it. That is what they have said they're going to do in April. They broke it. They fix it. Not the fans.

Why not but without the fans they wouldn't have tried to fix anything.

[CroGamer002]

bwFex wrote...

I never made that claim. Read what I wrote again. I promise, it's not in there.

Indoctrination works better on targets who are in a weakened state, physically and mentally. Being badly injured and knocked unconscious fills both of those conditions.

If that's the case, why Harbinger didn't made Kenson to strap Shepard at that Object Rho?

2 days of sleeping.

Enough for indocrination, I guess.


Also, no dreams then.

Oh, well if you're pretty sure, I guess the mystery is solved.

I had the chickenpox when I was a kid. That doesn't make me an expert chickenpox detector. Being exposed to something doesn't instantly mean you can detect and explain it in the future.

Not exactly good comparison since protheans can read other peoples minds.

You can't detect any sickness, ever.

Every single piece of evidence/indication that we present could also be explained by crappy writing, yes. One option closes loopholes and gives Bioware the benefit of the doubt, and the other exposes loopholes and assumes the worst out of Bioware. Both are only theories, and both require a significant amount of mental gymnastics to believe.

No, it requres to be depserate enuogh to think Bioware didn't screwed up endings and you just desperatly try to find some starws to think it's actually genious writting.

Even though in fact it's not.

Final Hoursrs of Mass Effect 3 documentary.

Lot's of specualtinos.

If rapid indoctrination requires a significant amount of a Reaper's energy/focus, it explains why they would prefer to just use lasers, rather than rapidly indoctrinate everyone.

This lasers are used to, you know, DESTROY!

Haven' you seen all those buildings falling when they fire those lasers?!
Same for ships getting destroyed?!

How come same laser can not only destroy, but also indocrinate?

As I explained, the official, in-game codex explains that while normal indoctrination takes months/years, rapid indoctrination is possible. That much is not speculation, it is fact.

Rapid indocrination would then destroy that person.

Created a bit off a giant plothole in Arrival for no use of rapid indocrination on Shepard, if Harbinger ever wanted that on him.

That is certainly possible. However, we also know this clone contains all of Shiala's previous memories. For all intents and purposes, she is the same person: just in a physically new body. The person she is was once indoctrinated, and now she is not.

Legion and Rachni Queen know Reaper voices, they sure as hell didn't listen to them.

New Shiala should know better too.

Until we get Rachni War DLC, we cannot know for sure. Perhaps the queens were biologically immune to indoctrination (in which case we still have an example of a biological creature fully resisting indoctrination), or perhaps they simply resisted it.

Rachni Queen flat out told you she heard Machnines voices, but never had any inlfucance on her.

Same for Legion, he could have hear Old Machines voices but never listen to them.

Regardless, as I pointed out at the end of my post, it is certainly possible that if Shepard succombs to indoctrination by choosing one of the incorrect options, he must die to get rid of the indoctrination.

Heh?

[TheHoneyRuns]

Sion1138 wrote...

First of all, I'm not validating indoc theory (though i like it).

I was just wondering, why do you guys think the "kid" was haunting Shepard from the beginning?

First thing he said to Shepard, he specifically told him "You can't help me." Why is that? It's a weird thing to say, makes me think he knew something.

Why would he think Shepard couldn't help him when he obviously could have kept him safe, or at least safer than if he had no protection?

Then he disappeared from the vent like a ghost.

Later, as Shepard was leaving Earth nobody noticed him but Shepard. Common sense says soldiers would have immediately grabbed him, but he was forced to crawl up into the shuttle by himself. No one even looked at him, except Shepard.

In the dreams, he runs away from Shepard. Every time Shepard comes close a red light shines on him and the "Reaper" horn is heard. This especially got me thinking that something suspicious was afoot. It suggested to me that Shepard is tied to the Reapers somehow.

What do you think?

Okay, no. No, no, no.

He's a kid in the beginning. A kid. Nobody else sees him my ass, there's a chick guiding his dumb ass onto the shuttle! Granted, you're correct, Anderson leaves and Shepard is left alone and the kid interacts only with her in that scene. But that's where that ends.

The dream? What did the kid do?! He ran away from her. She couldn't save him. The kid represents the plight of Earth and that Shepard is fighting a losing battle. The reason for the red light and the Reaper horn every time she gets close to him is because the kid got killed by a Reaper, with its red light and its stupid beam and its stupid Reaper horn. There is nothing magical or suggestive in this beyond the obvious tug-at-your-heartstrings emotional manipulation.

NOW.

The way the Indoc Theory goes, is that once the stupid beam hits Shepard s/he enters the Indoc process, the evil mojo forces read her mind and pull the kid out of her head and present it to her as the God Child/ Star Kid/ Stupid Bulls**t plot device in order to convince her to make the wrong choice.

Frankly, there should be an option to shoot the little bastard in the head, collect the ghostly brain matter, put it in a pouch, put the pouch around your neck as a token of badassery and beam right back on down, Champion of The Universe, Reapers and their stupid beams and stupid horns all dead.

Alas, no such luck. Only in my head.