306 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

DominusVita wrote...

Then if he's not indoctrinated, then why this damn dreams?

Dreams tend to involve ideas flying around in your subconscious, you know...like the deaths of millions lying on your every decision. I wasn't a big fan of those scenes, but that would be my explanation.

Talking about supposed dream after getting hit by Harbinger laser, not one with that kid.

[Vorodill]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vorodill wrote...


1-Maybe the indoctrination process start at the beam Harbinger shoot at Shepard at the end of the game.

It takes days, weeks even decades for indocrination.

So you're telling me that Comamnder Shepard, person who has strong will to gain that Prothean cipher without going insane, ge'ts indocrinated instantly by a laser?

2-The Protheans could not detect Indoctrinated people in their time.

Well after that betreyal, they should learn how indocrination works.

3-Indoctrination is about Reapers bringing you to their way of thinking. It's not about control. They give you the option to refuse. If Indo theory is right, what we see is the first attempt of indoctrination.

...

INDOCRINATION IS BRAINWASHING!!!

BRAINWASHING IS SOMETHING IS FORCED ON YOU!!!

4-They don't need to. They are big ****ing Reapers who don't care about a few ships. We are flies to them. Why bother with indoctrinating people first and attack later? The husks are a bonus for their invasion. The indoctrinated people too.

Cause it's hell of a lot more effective and they always used that tactic( Protheans traitors on Javik, Rachni Wars, Geth Heretics, Saren, Batarian scientists who reserached billion old Reapers but got indocrinated and betrayed their Hegemony by shutting down it's defences...).

5-Indoctrination can me done really fast (but people will look like the Salarians subjecs in Saren's base in ME1).

Eh, no.

They would like those husks we fought in all 3 games.

It's called Dragon Teeths.

Those SalarIans in Virmire base were taken prisoners for weeks.

6-If Indo theory is true, Shepard is not fully indoctrinated. He still has free will, like Saren and TIM. And I think they shoot themselves cause they have Reaper implants... Doesn't mean he HAS to commit suicide.

They scrapped an indoctrination idea that changes the gameplay. The Indo theory we have talks about metagaming experience, not gameplay experience.

So wait, you're telling me that everyone who said that said Shepard was getting indoctrinated by those Reapers devices since ME1, one that he was exposed to, are actually full of sh*t but in fact Shepard got indoctrinated instantly by Harbinger's laser, but actually he's not indoctrinated but he still has dreams that you gain if you are indoctrinated?


Talk about contradictions.

1-Laser doesn't indoctrinate people. The signal the Reapers send do. If Indo theory is right, the laser just left Shepard uncounscious. Then, Harbinger (or another Reaper) tries to bring them to their side.

2-What does that mean? They couldn't detect indoctrinated people in their time, even with the touching thing. Even in the present cycle, the Asari, Turians, Humans and others cannot detect them. It CANNOT be detected. They didn't find out how.

3-Yeah, but brainwhashing makes you believe that the Reapers are right. People can resist attemps of brainwashing.

4-Well, it takes less time to attack a planet and destroy all their defenses. They CAN do it. Why would they wait? They lose nothing by attacking (nobody could stop the Reapers in their first push).

5-Indoctrination and Husk transformation are two different things. WAY different. Indoctrination corrupts your mind. Husk transformation corrupts your body. Dragon's teeth make husks. Reaper's indoctrination (the signal created by the Reapers) makes indoctrinated people. The Salarians prisonner were there for weeks, but the indoctrination process can be done in a really short time (look at the codex, someone posted it in your thread).

Saren and TIM suffered from a slow indoctrination process. They still had some free will left. The salarians prisonners were indoctrinated too fast : they became mindless people. Not husks.

6-The laser DOES NOT indoctrinate people. It left, presumably, Shepard incounscious. THEN, the Reapers tried to indoctrinate him by showing him an illusion.

Indoctrinated people (like Saren and TIM) = Brainwashed people who still can see reason.

It doesn't mean that once you're indoctrinated, you cannot resist. Could Shepard be resisting the indoctrination during ME3? Yes. The last "dream" could be simply a final attempt to fully indoctrinate Shepard and bring him (us, the players) to their side.

Or the dreams are just guilt projection and there is only one attempt to indoctrination : the last part of the game.

Try to be civil.

Modifié par Vorodill, 23 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[NoSpin]

Let's have a friendly discussion guys! I'm in.

1. Bioware goes out of their way to tell you nobody made it to the beam. Why is Anderson there?
2. The codex entries on indoctrination seem to go hand in hand with Shep's symptoms. Vega hears buzzing in the Shuttle Bay.
3. The first scene with the little kid. "You can't help me." Weird response right? How about the Reaper growl when Anderson interrupts your little conversation?

[dreman9999]

demersel wrote...

Those are not evidence. Those are just lots of speculation from everyone. )))

Let's see. Seran wanting organics and Machines to be one in ME1, the human reaper in ME2 being organics and Machines as one, and the fact that the synthesis option the starchild offered is organics and machines as one is not proof?

[Dap Brannigan]

Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?


2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead?

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.


6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes.
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide.

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide.
Which would solve, you know, NOTHING!
My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as.
But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character.
You don't do that!


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic.
But that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary.
Not possible with organics.

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no.
According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive.
In other words, still organic just with extra parts.

1. Shepard wasn't indoctrinated yet.  It's been stated before by Vigil that the Protheans were terrible at detecting indoctrination until it was too late.  Kai Leng was obviously too late.  Shepard, was not.

2. See #1.  If the Protheans were so excellent at detecting indoctrination, they would have been better at not losing.  If Javik could detect it, he would have probably realized something was wrong before his entire crew was turned against him.

3. Read the codex.  Indoctrination often involves dreams.  This has been established by past events like the Cerberus crew on the dead reaper as well as Kenson's team.  The whole point of the indoctrination theory is that the final sequence is Harbinger's final push at indoctrinating Shepard.  Prior to the final sequence, Shepard isn't indoctrinated.  Whether your Shepard becomes indoctrinated, is based on whether you buy into the ghost-reaper-child's logic.

4. They do indoctrinate en masse to a certain extent.  Important members of the batarian hegemony were indoctrinated by the Leviathan of Dis and made it so the "reaping" was much easier.  Either Anderson or Allers mentioned halfway through the game that certain resistance leaders on Earth were starting to tell people to stop fighting the reapers (they were indoctrinated).  It was established in ME1 that Shepard's will is exceptionally strong, and that's how he's resisted reaper influence thus far.

5. From the codex: 
Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks.  Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 

6. I'm not sure how to respond to this one, your attempt at logic doesn't make any sense to me.

Modifié par Dap Brannigan, 23 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[Chuvvy]

Slidell505 wrote...
As opposed to?

The indoc theory isn't great, I sure as **** don't buy it, but it's better than the yo dawg logic we were presented with.

[Tovanus]

I've seen answers to all of these before. The fact is that any plotholes that can identified for indoctrination are tiny compared to the plotholes you get when taking the ending at face value. No, Bioware didn't intend to use indoctrination - we all get that. But it doesn't change the fact that the face-value ending has such terrible plot holes, indoctrination is the "lesser" of two evils. Most people asking for indoctrination, I think, are doing so because they assume Bioware wants to keep the ending scenes in the game, and they desperately want to make the biggest plotholes go away.

But you know, if Bioware was willing to really rewrite the ending and completely get rid of things like the Starchild, I think most people would be happy.

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

DominusVita wrote...

Then if he's not indoctrinated, then why this damn dreams?

Dreams tend to involve ideas flying around in your subconscious, you know...like the deaths of millions lying on your every decision. I wasn't a big fan of those scenes, but that would be my explanation.

Talking about supposed dream after getting hit by Harbinger laser, not one with that kid.

The indoctriation attempt started form object rho from the arrival DLC... http://www.youtube.c...HXBEkD6Y#t=163s

[thegame30]

@TheHoneyruns

I didn't see any chick guiding him. What i see is a kid completely ignore. Even when he gets in the shuttle no one help him get in. Either only Shepard see him or people there are just monsters. Common sense says someone will help him in at least.

Modifié par thegame30, 23 mars 2012 - 06:06 .

[Iwillbeback]

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

As much as you might hate this theory, the sad truth is... That the ending was so horrible people would prefer that it was a dream. 

And besides, it doesn't matter anyway. It was all just a bedtime story anyway for some kid.

Including the part where Shepard has vigorous intercourse.

That would explain Tali's face, the old man had no imagination 


Boy: Tell me about what cerberus did to the civilians again?

Old man: They killed them by making them suffer terrible pain and then turned them into husks that devoured little boy and girls like youself.
The reapers killed little boys and girls and turned them into reaper juice, some were forced to fight and kill people resisting.

Much like the collectors who melted people including little boy and girls in immense pain turning them into reaper juice.


Boy: What was shepard's sex life like?

Old man: Well shepard was very horny, first she stayed away from everyone because she screwed up all the relationships and she killed Kaidan, Liara wasn't interested and Ashley doesn't play.

Then she had Jacob and Garrus in quick succssion and then she moved onto Liara.
This is left to speculation but she may of tingled with Kelly Chambers too.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 23 mars 2012 - 06:06 .

[CroGamer002]

Exolyps wrote...

1) So you asume the VI is updated? But nothing proves it, thus you can't use that point to prove anything.
Did Saren look indoctrionated?  Doesn't have to look it to be it.

His talks about joining Reapers and those obvious Reaper impalement sure as hell prove he's getting indoctrinated.

2) He can, but Shepard isn't indoctrionated yet. And if he said all protheans have the same ability. So if he can detect early stages of Shepard, then why couldn't the Sleeper Agents be detected?

Simple, they didn't know how deep indocrniatino can go at the time.
Now he knows.

3) He is not fully indoctrionated, Harbringer is trying to indoctrionate him. I recall the Rachni Queen mentioning something about dreams.

Yeah, by a giant laser that kills and destroy for some reason can also indocrinate.

Also, she never said anything about dreams.

4) It took years to get this far with Shepard, and if you play correctly Harbringer failes. Besides, Shepard is in a weak position, knocked out. This could make him an easier target.

Giant plothole.

Arrival.

Shepard was uncouncious for 2 days.
Why no dreams then?

5) I don't remember reading about Saren having Reaper implants for 30 years. As far as I remember from the first book, at the start of the book he had yet to discover the Reapers. But  I could be wrong on this one and the book actually is 30 years before. But I doupt it.

Besides that, we don't know how effective the various artifacts or implants is, nor when Saren and the Illusive Man got indoctrionated.

Comic series Mass Effect Evolution.

And we didn't see any proof that simple Reaper artifact is less effective then Reaper capital ship.

Hell, remember Paul Greyson?

6) The "ending" is an indoctrionation attempt. If you play the game right, Harbringer fails. Thus, it doesn't matter if it pernament or not, he never gets that far.

Thwen why the dreams if Shepard is not indoctrinated.

I don't remember Saren or Illusive Man having dreams.

Or anyone else saying they have dreams during indoctrination.

Modifié par Mesina2, 23 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[CroGamer002]

kimuji wrote...

I don't get your goal Mesina, no theory is perfect though the current ending got even more plotholes and inconsistencies. In fact all what is told in the current ending can't be true regarding all what Sovereign and Harbinger said and did in the previous games. Are you looking for a better theory?

And that's my problem.

People say this theory makes a lot sense, but in fact it doesn't and jsut gives fuel for Bioware not to properly fix endings.


Endings have to be overhauled in proper fix.

[NoSpin]

The second time you talk to the Prothean VI, it states it is overriding security protocols. Even if Shepard is indoctrinated it would tell him about the Citadel, because it overrode the protocols that wouldn't let it talk to indoctrinated forces.

Again Shepard isn't "indoctrinated" unless you choose the two Reaper choices at the end, but he is being infiltrated by Harbinger the whole game subconsciously.

[noobcannon]

shepard isn't indoctrinated. harby is trying to, especially at the end. but he is not indoctrinated.

[tontoodioso]

The way I interpreted it was that Shepard was not indoctrinated by reapers at all, he was being temporarily controlled by a power the Illusive Man was trying to use. It had nothing to do with Shepard's time with Cerberus as Anderson was unable to move either, also being controlled by the Illusive man.

[CroGamer002]

Jartek wrote...

what I want to know it how these space magic colored mass effect relay explosions don't wipe out all life in the solar system when they explode like in the batarian solar system at the end of the arrival DLC.

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.

[Aurvant]

How about this: if the Indoctrination Theory is garbage and the real ending is garbage, how about we get an ending that isn't garbage?

Scrap everything after Harbinger's beam and start over if it means making something that repairs the damn damage we've incurred from this non-sensical finale.

[CroGamer002]

kimuji wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Jartek wrote...

You make great points disproving the indoctrination theory, one thing is still a miss tho. If Shepard in on the citadel when u shoot the power coupling thing on the destroy ending, how does he magically appear in rubble gasping for air in what appears to be earth rubble after the credits? He goes from a space explosion to laying in earth looking rubble??

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.


That happen.

So I take it you don't like the current ending too. You don't like the endoctrination theory either. What are your suggestions then? "ME3 has an ending that doesn't make sense, let's keep it that way" ?

Complete overhaul of endings.

This ship Mac and Casey made is broken beyond repair.
Make new one.

[TheHoneyRuns]

Sion1138 wrote...

TheHoneyRuns wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

First of all, I'm not validating indoc theory (though i like it).

I was just wondering, why do you guys think the "kid" was haunting Shepard from the beginning?

First thing he said to Shepard, he specifically told him "You can't help me." Why is that? It's a weird thing to say, makes me think he knew something.

Why would he think Shepard couldn't help him when he obviously could have kept him safe, or at least safer than if he had no protection?

Then he disappeared from the vent like a ghost.

Later, as Shepard was leaving Earth nobody noticed him but Shepard. Common sense says soldiers would have immediately grabbed him, but he was forced to crawl up into the shuttle by himself. No one even looked at him, except Shepard.

In the dreams, he runs away from Shepard. Every time Shepard comes close a red light shines on him and the "Reaper" horn is heard. This especially got me thinking that something suspicious was afoot. It suggested to me that Shepard is tied to the Reapers somehow.

What do you think?

Okay, no. No, no, no.

He's a kid in the beginning. A kid. Nobody else sees him my ass, there's a chick guiding his dumb ass onto the shuttle! Granted, you're correct, Anderson leaves and Shepard is left alone and the kid interacts only with her in that scene. But that's where that ends.

The dream? What did the kid do?! He ran away from her. She couldn't save him. The kid represents the plight of Earth and that Shepard is fighting a losing battle. The reason for the red light and the Reaper horn every time she gets close to him is because the kid got killed by a Reaper, with its red light and its stupid beam and its stupid Reaper horn. There is nothing magical or suggestive in this beyond the obvious tug-at-your-heartstrings emotional manipulation.

NOW.

The way the Indoc Theory goes, is that once the stupid beam hits Shepard s/he enters the Indoc process, the evil mojo forces read her mind and pull the kid out of her head and present it to her as the God Child/ Star Kid/ Stupid Bulls**t plot device in order to convince her to make the wrong choice.

Frankly, there should be an option to shoot the little bastard in the head, collect the ghostly brain matter, put it in a pouch, put the pouch around your neck as a token of badassery and beam right back on down, Champion of The Universe, Reapers and their stupid beams and stupid horns all dead.

Alas, no such luck. Only in my head.

Nobody guides him to the shuttle, I just checked again. He's a complete ghost.

Okay, yes, I just checked it myself and you are correct. But seriously?! Nothing else I said reached you. Shepard is just seeing this kid from the beginning as he's already being indoctrinated? Now all of the OP's annoying first post nonpoints are coming into play. You know what, screw it. I'm jumping on board with Messina. If you Indoc guys can't stick to one friggin' theory I'm not going to defend this screwy nonsense.

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

bwFex wrote...

I never made that claim. Read what I wrote again. I promise, it's not in there.

Indoctrination works better on targets who are in a weakened state, physically and mentally. Being badly injured and knocked unconscious fills both of those conditions.

If that's the case, why Harbinger didn't made Kenson to strap Shepard at that Object Rho?

2 days of sleeping.

Enough for indocrination, I guess.


Also, no dreams then.

Oh, well if you're pretty sure, I guess the mystery is solved.

I had the chickenpox when I was a kid. That doesn't make me an expert chickenpox detector. Being exposed to something doesn't instantly mean you can detect and explain it in the future.

Not exactly good comparison since protheans can read other peoples minds.

You can't detect any sickness, ever.

Every single piece of evidence/indication that we present could also be explained by crappy writing, yes. One option closes loopholes and gives Bioware the benefit of the doubt, and the other exposes loopholes and assumes the worst out of Bioware. Both are only theories, and both require a significant amount of mental gymnastics to believe.

No, it requres to be depserate enuogh to think Bioware didn't screwed up endings and you just desperatly try to find some starws to think it's actually genious writting.

Even though in fact it's not.

Final Hoursrs of Mass Effect 3 documentary.

Lot's of specualtinos.

If rapid indoctrination requires a significant amount of a Reaper's energy/focus, it explains why they would prefer to just use lasers, rather than rapidly indoctrinate everyone.

This lasers are used to, you know, DESTROY!

Haven' you seen all those buildings falling when they fire those lasers?!
Same for ships getting destroyed?!

How come same laser can not only destroy, but also indocrinate?

As I explained, the official, in-game codex explains that while normal indoctrination takes months/years, rapid indoctrination is possible. That much is not speculation, it is fact.

Rapid indocrination would then destroy that person.

Created a bit off a giant plothole in Arrival for no use of rapid indocrination on Shepard, if Harbinger ever wanted that on him.

That is certainly possible. However, we also know this clone contains all of Shiala's previous memories. For all intents and purposes, she is the same person: just in a physically new body. The person she is was once indoctrinated, and now she is not.

Legion and Rachni Queen know Reaper voices, they sure as hell didn't listen to them.

New Shiala should know better too.

Until we get Rachni War DLC, we cannot know for sure. Perhaps the queens were biologically immune to indoctrination (in which case we still have an example of a biological creature fully resisting indoctrination), or perhaps they simply resisted it.

Rachni Queen flat out told you she heard Machnines voices, but never had any inlfucance on her.

Same for Legion, he could have hear Old Machines voices but never listen to them.

Regardless, as I pointed out at the end of my post, it is certainly possible that if Shepard succombs to indoctrination by choosing one of the incorrect options, he must die to get rid of the indoctrination.

Heh?

1. it takes time!!!!! We have been saying this over and over again and posting codex stating this...It takes time.
2.The lazer have nothing to do with indoctrination...All that has to happen is harbiger to knock down shepard and just be near by. The reapers themselve give off indoctrination feilds. This you should know from ME1 WITH SOVERGIN AND THE DERLICT REAPER IN me2.
3.Legion is a machine.
4. The rachni queen never says that. She just tell you what happen to other rachni queens.

[NoSpin]

Explaining inconsistencies by "they can't write a story" isn't explaining anything.

Would someone be kind enough to point out the holes of Indoctrination theory? I have been really reading this thread and haven't seen any good ones...

[CroGamer002]

Aurvant wrote...

How about this: if the Indoctrination Theory is garbage and the real ending is garbage, how about we get an ending that isn't garbage?

Scrap everything after Harbinger's beam and start over if it means making something that repairs the damn damage we've incurred from this non-sensical finale.