306 réponses à ce sujet

[TheHoneyRuns]

Sion1138 wrote...

I'm just trying to discuss it for the hell of it. For fun. How about another thread about the kid (MSFE thread)?

Fact is, the kid is weird as hell from the beginning.

Ah. I see.

Nevermind then. Temper tantrum withdrawn.

[Iwillbeback]

Mesina2 you ignored my post back on page 2 near the bottom.

Please give a good response.

[CroGamer002]

Sion1138 wrote...

First of all, I'm not validating indoc theory (though i like it).

I was just wondering, why do you guys think the "kid" was haunting Shepard from the beginning?

First thing he said to Shepard, he specifically told him "You can't help me." Why is that? It's a weird thing to say, makes me think he knew something.

Why would he think Shepard couldn't help him when he obviously could have kept him safe, or at least safer than if he had no protection?

Then he disappeared from the vent like a ghost.

Later, as Shepard was leaving Earth nobody noticed him but Shepard. Common sense suggests soldiers would have immediately grabbed him, but he was forced to crawl up into the shuttle by himself. No one even looked at him, except Shepard.

In the dreams, he runs away from Shepard. Every time Shepard comes close a red light shines on him and the "Reaper" horn is heard. This especially got me thinking that something suspicious was afoot. It suggested to me that Shepard is tied to the Reapers somehow.

What do you think?

Simple.

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.

Hence that Starkid.

[CroGamer002]

demersel wrote...

Those are not evidence. Those are just lots of speculation from everyone. )))

We have a winner!

[Vorodill]

Mesina2 wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

First of all, I'm not validating indoc theory (though i like it).

I was just wondering, why do you guys think the "kid" was haunting Shepard from the beginning?

First thing he said to Shepard, he specifically told him "You can't help me." Why is that? It's a weird thing to say, makes me think he knew something.

Why would he think Shepard couldn't help him when he obviously could have kept him safe, or at least safer than if he had no protection?

Then he disappeared from the vent like a ghost.

Later, as Shepard was leaving Earth nobody noticed him but Shepard. Common sense suggests soldiers would have immediately grabbed him, but he was forced to crawl up into the shuttle by himself. No one even looked at him, except Shepard.

In the dreams, he runs away from Shepard. Every time Shepard comes close a red light shines on him and the "Reaper" horn is heard. This especially got me thinking that something suspicious was afoot. It suggested to me that Shepard is tied to the Reapers somehow.

What do you think?

Simple.

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.

Hence that Starkid.

These two guys weren't alone for writing the end. And the article that says they did has been confirmed to be fake.

Modifié par Vorodill, 23 mars 2012 - 06:14 .

[NoSpin]

Yes, whether it is the Reaper IFF or Shepard's CONSTANT contact with Reapers, he has been infiltrated by indoctrination since the beginning of the game. He isn't indoctrinated, but he is experiencing the symptoms of the process. The Reapers want him to believe he can't win "You can't save me". They want to persuade him to their thinking. THAT is indoctrination.

And sorry to me it makes complete sense since the beginning of the game. Everything falls into place.

[dreman9999]

@Mesina2
it does not take 2 days to indoctrinate someone...It takes time. It's a slow prosses. The fast way to do it is to overwhelm the persons will, with pain like in the case of the dragons teeth or drugs in the case of Paul Grayson.

[CroGamer002]

Iwillbeback wrote...

Mesina2 you ignored my post back on page 2 near the bottom.

Please give a good response.

Why should I?

You're just speculating like others and I'm trying to respond as much people as possible.

Have to ignore some posts that are identical to ones I already responded.

[Tyrzun]

I'm glad I made my canned response to keep posting and explaining and explaining.

THIS is what happened, no plot holes.

Harbinger knocks you out 20 meters from the portal in your N7 armor

You wake up in your "Casual clothes". I guess Bioware should have had a rep pop on scream and go LOOK LOOK LOOK this is obviously not reality.

You meet Harbinger/Star Child and tell him you know the Reapers are bad and want to destroy them.

You wake up back in London back in your N7 armor.

Obviously everything in between was not reality. They couldn't have made that more clear without
someone on the screen popping up and telling you.

Why it isn't a dream or hallucination, because you are destroyed and you don't wake up if you go
blue or green.

Your will is given up. ONLY if you keep true to your mission and insist the Reapers die, do you wake up.

It's cut and dry.

Congratulation you resisted indoctrination.

There is one wrinkle that leaves room for speculation on WHY it happened, not if it happened..

If I don't have enough EMS I don't wake up if I choose destroy. That's because in the
"indoctrination" world they told you that you would DIE in the citadel explosion if you chose
Red. You knew better but weren't strong enough to break out. It took massive effort from
Benezia to break out for a minute etc... So, Bioware tied EMS into your belief you can win.

The reason Bioware's ending is "unique" and they are proud of it is getting people to disregard

everything they've learned about the Reapers through over 100 hours of gameplay and indoctrinate

themselves anyways. It's freaking awesome they got people to indoctrinate themselves. THAT has never been done.

Note- Shep was not "slowly" indoctrinated. TIM aka The Illusive man was, he was the "traitor"
every race has according to the Prothean AI. However, they can do it quick in emergencies and
that's what the battle is with Harbinger. A full out mental war.

It is made clear that IF you loose the instant indoctrination attempt the "victim' looses all higher mental capabilities. AKA your mind is instantly toast. Which is why you indoctrinated people will NEVER wake up, your done.

[kimuji]

Mesina2 wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

First of all, I'm not validating indoc theory (though i like it).

I was just wondering, why do you guys think the "kid" was haunting Shepard from the beginning?

First thing he said to Shepard, he specifically told him "You can't help me." Why is that? It's a weird thing to say, makes me think he knew something.

Why would he think Shepard couldn't help him when he obviously could have kept him safe, or at least safer than if he had no protection?

Then he disappeared from the vent like a ghost.

Later, as Shepard was leaving Earth nobody noticed him but Shepard. Common sense suggests soldiers would have immediately grabbed him, but he was forced to crawl up into the shuttle by himself. No one even looked at him, except Shepard.

In the dreams, he runs away from Shepard. Every time Shepard comes close a red light shines on him and the "Reaper" horn is heard. This especially got me thinking that something suspicious was afoot. It suggested to me that Shepard is tied to the Reapers somehow.

What do you think?

Simple.

Mac Walters and Casey Hudson can't write a story.

Hence that Starkid.

So you think a DLC free of any fans' hints or tips will fix this? Maybe, really I can't tell.

[CroGamer002]

dreman9999 wrote...

@Mesina2
it does not take 2 days to indoctrinate someone...It takes time. It's a slow prosses. The fast way to do it is to overwhelm the persons will, with pain like in the case of the dragons teeth or drugs in the case of Paul Grayson.

With rapid indocrination, it should take even less.


Besides, why would that laser make Shepard dream but 2 days in prison near Object Rho not?

[DLClol]

The ending might not have been a indoctrination attempt but the dream sequences definitely were.

Rachni Queen tells you how she got indoctrinated through dreams and they were the same ones Shepard was having. The fact that the spacekid is in it and you can hear Harbys voice in the dream just adds fuel to the fire.

[Aurvant]

Also, I don't believe that the supporters of the theory is actually claiming that Shepard is indoctrinated. All of the evidence that is laid out is attempting to show that Shepard's mind is becoming susceptible to the effects of attempted Indoctrination.

Contact with Sovereign, the derelict reaper, contact with the collectors base and Harbinger, and the most compelling evidence of possible weakness to indoctrination is the Reaper artifact in The Arrival.

Shepard's mind is clearly under attack when the artifact activates in The Arrival. The doctor even tells you to stop fighting its influence and just give in. Shepard is of especially strong will and would not go down so easily. However, it's possible that all this time Shepard's mind has been slowly broken down and has become more and more susceptible over time.

Shepard has been shown to resist direct indoctrination assaults, and the theory is only attempting to state that this final ending is a direct attempt by Harbinger to trick Shepard in to giving up.

Modifié par Aurvant, 23 mars 2012 - 06:19 .

[CroGamer002]

DLClol wrote...

The ending might not have been a indoctrination attempt but the dream sequences definitely were.

Rachni Queen tells you how she got indoctrinated through dreams and they were the same ones Shepard was having. The fact that the spacekid is in it and you can hear Harbys voice in the dream just adds fuel to the fire.

Pretty sure Rachni Queen was NOT indoctrinated.

She flat out told you she can hear them, but they can't influence her.

[Vorodill]

Mesina2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Mesina2
it does not take 2 days to indoctrinate someone...It takes time. It's a slow prosses. The fast way to do it is to overwhelm the persons will, with pain like in the case of the dragons teeth or drugs in the case of Paul Grayson.

With rapid indocrination, it should take even less.


Besides, why would that laser make Shepard dream but 2 days in prison near Object Rho not?

Maybe the dreams have nothing to do about Indoctrination. Indo theory can go on without the dreams too.

[TheHoneyRuns]

NoSpin wrote...

Yes, whether it is the Reaper IFF or Shepard's CONSTANT contact with Reapers, he has been infiltrated by indoctrination since the beginning of the game. He isn't indoctrinated, but he is experiencing the symptoms of the process. The Reapers want him to believe he can't win "You can't save me". They want to persuade him to their thinking. THAT is indoctrination.

And sorry to me it makes complete sense since the beginning of the game. Everything falls into place.

Everything falls into place? Everything falls into place for you? The Prothean VI, Javik, etc. This is just supremely goofy. All you guys are doing with arguments like this is making Mesina2's destruction of the Indoc Theory look sublime in its reasoning.

[CroGamer002]

Aurvant wrote...

Also, I don't believe that the supporters of the theory is actually claiming that Shepard is indoctrinated. All of the evidence that is laid out is attempting to show that Shepard's mind is becoming susceptible to the effects of attempted Indoctrination.

Contact with Sovereign, the derelict reaper, contact with the collectors base and Harbinger, and the most compelling evidence of possible evidence is the Reaper artifact in The Arrival.

Shepard's mind is clearly under attack when the artifact activates in The Arrival. The doctor even tells you to stop fighting its influence and just give in. Shepard is of especially strong will and would not go down so easily. However, it's possible that all this time Shepard's mind has been slowly broken down and has become more and more susceptible over time.

Shepard has been shown to resist direct indoctrination assaults, and the theory is only attempting to state that this final ending is a direct attempt by Harbinger to trick Shepard in to giving up.

And yet, Saren was in Sovereign for few years with Reaper implants and still wasn't indoctrinated until end of ME1.


So you're telling me Saren is better then Shepard?

[NoSpin]

Because the game had to end! It was the climax, Bioware said "OK, now get Shep knocked unconscious by the laser and let's start the dream ending". You can take the ending at face value (like everyone who is crying), or realize that the break from reality happens right there.

[Vorodill]

Mesina2 wrote...

DLClol wrote...

The ending might not have been a indoctrination attempt but the dream sequences definitely were.

Rachni Queen tells you how she got indoctrinated through dreams and they were the same ones Shepard was having. The fact that the spacekid is in it and you can hear Harbys voice in the dream just adds fuel to the fire.

Pretty sure Rachni Queen was NOT indoctrinated.

She flat out told you she can hear them, but they can't influence her.

Her children were indoctrinated in the Rachni wars. Her children weren't indoctrinated in ME3. They were oging through an Husk transformation.

[CroGamer002]

Vorodill wrote...

Maybe the dreams have nothing to do about Indoctrination. Indo theory can go on without the dreams too.

But this theory is heavily supported by dreams.

If you remove those, which are already poor supports, they have nothing.

It's just a speculation that comes out of nowhere.

[Phearmonger]

Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? (Because Shepard wasn't indoctrinated.) If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle (as Rana Thanoptis explained, it happens subtly and slowly), cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that? (If they couldn't catch it in the first place, how would they know how to catch it later? Being betrayed by indoctrinated forces that can slip by your detectors doesn't magically give them the ability to catch that. This isn't a computer virus where you can analyze the code and adapt immediately.)
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?
(because indoctrination is an effect of the MIND, not the outward appearance. If you don't realize that by now I don't know how to help you.)

2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock? (because you're not indoctrinated)


3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? ( because he's not indoctrinated) Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind? (because the whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by the Reapers. You just answered this question)
Also, from Benezia we find out you're actually trapped in your mind and can't stop yourself at all. Why didn't she had some wild dreams instead? (How do you know she didn't? and by this time she is ALREADY indoctrinated. She doesn't describe the process, just the after effect.)

And again, control.
Dr. Armada Kenson wanted to stop Reapers, but in the end started to think they may be right do to her being indoctrinated.
So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated? (Because he's not indoctrinated.)


4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy (no it does not. The lore states that rapid indoctrination is possible. The lore sets the difficulty, not indoctrination theory.) so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole. (It existed before indoctrination theory. Indoctrination theory did not set the precedent for indoctrination by artifact. That plothole, if it is one, would exist with or without IT.)


5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated. (Not sure how you know exactly WHEN they got indoctrinated. As the lore states, indoctrinated agents look and act no different most of the time than other people. Otherwise, they would be nearly useless, because they are supposed to blend in.)

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then? (I don't know the answer to that, but the lore states that indoctrination can occur rapidly, but it deteriorates the victim faster. Probably more of a desperation measure when used like that. Don't know how long Shep has been worked on, however. It's arguable that he/she had no discernible indoctrination until being exposed to the thing in Arrival.)
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that. (Your prerogative, but nothing has stated that Shep is immune to indoctrination, either, and I would be disappointed if he/she did not show enough humanity to struggle through the same things her fellow humans have to struggle through. Fast indoctrinations are possible, we know from the lore, but just not as useful. The slow type may be sufficient for weak wills, but heavy-duty type might be required for strong wills, but that's just speculation.)


6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that. (Becoming a husk is a different process than indoctrination and a husk is practically worthless as an indoctrinated servant. Indoctrinated folks aren't there to be the front lines in an army, they are infiltration units designed to blend in.)

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination. (You said if your are, which means the same thing as once you are. Shepard is not indoctrinated until he/she gives in during the ending sequence, according to IT. We don't see Shepard's fate afterward, so there's no retcon here yet, unless Bioware releases something showing Shep succumbing to indoctrination and then returning from it. And from the comments I've seen, they appear to have already established at least one person escaping indoctrination, so the precedent has apparently been set.)
Considering it took him far shorter time to be indoctrinated then Saren and Illusive Man, by this theory, that's very stupid!

Only thing you can do is too resist indoctrination and higher will you have longer it takes. (I believe there is no lore definitively stating this, and the Salarian soldier you can free on Virmire, not the one that turns on you but the sane one, suggests to me that the only point of no return is when you let it take over. It appears to be something that has to be let in by the host, that's why it's done so subtly in the first place, to avoid raising their defenses.)
Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated and you can help them understand they are indoctrinated so real part of them get's its sh*t together and commit suicide. (By that logic you can argue that Benezia was not fully indoctrinated, either, because she ends up resisting it long enough to help you, but above you said she was fully indoctrinated and since Shep's experience is different than hers that means Shep can't be indoctrinated. You can't have it both ways.)

So only thing for Shepard to happen is to realize he's indoctrinated and commit suicide. (Shep is not indoctrinated until he/she gives in, which doesn't happe until the end, and this wouldn't automatically lead to committing suicide.)
Which would solve, you know, NOTHING!
My choices will still not matter and I would still have same ending, unless I take over some other character to play as. (If the sequence continued on, that would not be true. Indoctrination Theory does not necessarily assert that the current endings are in any way complete. You can believe in IT and still think more needs to be added on.)
But then, I'm' ending ME trilogy, which is Shepard's story, with some other character. (What other character? Indoctrinated Shep is still Shep. As you said above, the person is still there, their psyche is just trapped inside. Are you suggesting that the only valid ending to the series must be one where Shep triumphs over all no matter what choices he/she makes throughout the trilogy?)
You don't do that!


Only exception to this rule is if you are synthetic.
But that's because they are programs so change in code is only thing that is necessary.
Not possible with organics. (I'm not sure how you know any of this about synthetics and indoctrination, and I don't think there's any statement that it's even possible to indoctrinate synthetics since the Reapers are only here to exterminate organics)

And before you say Shepard is partially synthetic, no.
According to EDI, Shepard is still human just with cybernetics that keep him alive.
In other words, still organic just with extra parts. (How does that differ from partially synthetic?)

Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct. (Don't have Final Hours, but I've seen some of the "proof" offered in the form of a spreadsheet describing the plot. I've seen nothing to suggest that this sequence can't be an indoctrination sequence. In fact, the entire sequence does not even appear on the spreadsheet. I've seen the quote of the Prothean VI that the crucible would bring about a galactic dark age described as proof against IT, but nothing in IT prevents that from being true. If anything, it further strengthens IT, since the dream sequence at the end would serve as a warning to Shep that if the crucible were activated the relays would be destroyed, and when Shep comes to again he/she might have to find a different tactic. IT doesn't guarantee that the endings portray a good ending to the game, just to the indoctrination attempt. Of course, if there is some actual difinitive proof in that documentary, I'd love to have it pointed out. I might buy the app someday, but it's not a big deal to me.)
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations. (So the huge exercise in speculation that is Indoctrination Theory cannot be true because Casey and Mac wanted to end this trilogy with lots of speculation? I don't follow that logic.)

Which is, you know, BS! (Yes it is, your last bit of reasoning, that is.)

And this theory is just a speculation. (Doesn't claim to be otherwise, except through the loose use of the word theory. All we can do is speculate. What's wrong with that?)


So yeah.
I will ask you people to throw this theory out of the window cause there is no Bioware's master plan to fix endings all along, they actually though this was a good idea. (Having unsatisfying endings does not invalidate Indoctrination Theory. It is based on what IS present, not what might be present if they added on real endings.)

Don't give them pleasure in trying to fill holes that Bioware should have done and demand from them to make FREE DLC to fix endings. (The two aren't mutually exclusive. Speculation is fun, just ask any mystery fan. I prefer speculation to fill holes over giving up and stewing in hatred. Are you saying the work would be better if they just held your hand and spelled everything out for you? If so, I don't agree. I wan't to have to think about things. But in either case, if IT fills holes, and you expect Bioware to fill holes, why is IT such a bad thing then? Doesn't it do what you want Bioware to do?)
And by that I mean overhaul them. (Here's the answer. You actually don't want holes filled. You want it your way or no way.)
Starkid, Normandy escaping and Synthesis ending have to go away. (No they don't. This is an unrealistic and entitled expectation. The ending can be made acceptable in many ways, even in ways that include those elements. But you come off as a stubborn kid refusing to accept anything other than your own narrow viewpoint.)

This is Mesina2/CroGamer002 and hold the line.

Modifié par Phearmonger, 23 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[NoSpin]

Wasn't Javik's entire crew indoctrinated without him knowing? Then he had to hunt them down.

[Vorodill]

Mesina2 wrote...

Aurvant wrote...

Also, I don't believe that the supporters of the theory is actually claiming that Shepard is indoctrinated. All of the evidence that is laid out is attempting to show that Shepard's mind is becoming susceptible to the effects of attempted Indoctrination.

Contact with Sovereign, the derelict reaper, contact with the collectors base and Harbinger, and the most compelling evidence of possible evidence is the Reaper artifact in The Arrival.

Shepard's mind is clearly under attack when the artifact activates in The Arrival. The doctor even tells you to stop fighting its influence and just give in. Shepard is of especially strong will and would not go down so easily. However, it's possible that all this time Shepard's mind has been slowly broken down and has become more and more susceptible over time.

Shepard has been shown to resist direct indoctrination assaults, and the theory is only attempting to state that this final ending is a direct attempt by Harbinger to trick Shepard in to giving up.

And yet, Saren was in Sovereign for few years with Reaper implants and still wasn't indoctrinated until end of ME1.


So you're telling me Saren is better then Shepard?

For Sovereign, Saren was a special  case compared to other people (as was TIM). Sovereign used a slow indoctrination process instead of a fast one, cause he needed Saren to be able to think by himself. In Indo theory, Harbinger is trying the same, because if Shepard is indoctrinated, he could send false informations to the armies. He is a war leader and would be a valuable asset as an agent with SOME free will left.

Modifié par Vorodill, 23 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[CroGamer002]

I am not responding to PM's about Indoctrination theory.


Do not bother to send me one.

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Mesina2
it does not take 2 days to indoctrinate someone...It takes time. It's a slow prosses. The fast way to do it is to overwhelm the persons will, with pain like in the case of the dragons teeth or drugs in the case of Paul Grayson.

With rapid indocrination, it should take even less.


Besides, why would that laser make Shepard dream but 2 days in prison near Object Rho not?

Again..
1.Rapid indoctrination only happen when the will is broken. Which is way they use dragons teath...It over whelms the person will with pain. Two days not to rho is not goig to full indoctrinate anyone. It takes time. It would take weeks.
Also, the reaper don't want to use repid indoctrination on shepard because it woud make Shepard into a husk...They  want a thinking agent...That takes time to do.
2. Shepard has been having indoctrination dreams since the start of Mass effect 3 with boy..IT  doesn't suddenely happen at the end of the game. Also, at the 2 days of object rho...it's just starting. The reapers don't have much of a hold yet.