306 réponses à ce sujet

[Aurvant]

@Mesina:

Saren had been indoctrinated for years. His claims that he had free will we're proven false when he began to question Sovereign's motives. He mind was being controlled and when he tried to stop it he was wracked with pain from it. Saren had to end his own life because he realized that he had been indoctrinated all along.

Hell, he even says that Sovereign implanted those pieces in him because Saren kept trying to resist and question Sovereign's motives. The effects of Indoctrination makes its victims believe that they aren't actually indoctrinated. The scene with the Illusive Man is proof of that as well. He believed that he was in control, but when he realized he truly wasn't he ended the influence by ending his own life.

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

Aurvant wrote...

Also, I don't believe that the supporters of the theory is actually claiming that Shepard is indoctrinated. All of the evidence that is laid out is attempting to show that Shepard's mind is becoming susceptible to the effects of attempted Indoctrination.

Contact with Sovereign, the derelict reaper, contact with the collectors base and Harbinger, and the most compelling evidence of possible evidence is the Reaper artifact in The Arrival.

Shepard's mind is clearly under attack when the artifact activates in The Arrival. The doctor even tells you to stop fighting its influence and just give in. Shepard is of especially strong will and would not go down so easily. However, it's possible that all this time Shepard's mind has been slowly broken down and has become more and more susceptible over time.

Shepard has been shown to resist direct indoctrination assaults, and the theory is only attempting to state that this final ending is a direct attempt by Harbinger to trick Shepard in to giving up.

And yet, Saren was in Sovereign for few years with Reaper implants and still wasn't indoctrinated until end of ME1.


So you're telling me Saren is better then Shepard?

Seran was indoctrinated for years...he just did not know it untill Shepard pointed it out.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

The dream can simply be survivors guilt. The child was the first victim that Shepard ever could have saved but didn't. He watched that same child he couldn't save die. Everyone that's died in the universe before that child was either by Shepard's hand or in a circumstance that was beyond Shepard's control. But this child he could've physically saved but didn't. The child then died. THat's survivors guilt in a nutshell much like Garrus's traitor Sidonis who got his team killed and couldn't sleep afterwards. The shadows in the dream most likely represent the people that have been killed that Shepard also couldn't save by countless numbers. People of earth, Palavan, Thessia, etc. The numbers go into the millions and who knows how many have died. The shadows represent those unknown deaths that Shepard was once again powerless to save. He's a soldier he's got a lot on his mind his dreams show that. While everyone would prefer the damn child stay dead it makes sense that GUILT not indoctrination is the driving factor to his constant reappearance.

Also Saren was different than Shepard from the get go he saw working with the reaper as a needed necessity. It's possible the indoctrination on Saren was incredibly slow but it was his own personal choice to side with Saren and the geth. He saw it as the only way he could survive then he saw it as the only way humanity could survive. As the deamands of Saren to betray organics became more and more intense, he came to doubt his reasoning the conversaiton on Virmire proves this. It had been made apparent that while Saren made his choice he was begginning to lose himself to indoctrination thus the study and the need for the implants. He was resisting and Sovereign gave him a means to "Strengthen his resolve" which was actually just the final nail on the coffin. Shepard on the other hand always wanted the reapers stopped he didn't care how or why all he cared about was stopping them from destroying all organic life. The two motivations and thought patterns are very different between the two characters. 

Modifié par ShepardTheHopeful, 23 mars 2012 - 06:31 .

[NoSpin]

Without dreams IT has nothing?

Shepard shot in the same place as Anderson.
Buzzing on the Normandy.
Casual clothes on the Citadel, yet ARMOR when he breathes.
The Control choice being Paragon Blue.
Nobody sees the kid. Nobody.
The star child "smiling" when you choose Control
The fact that the whole freaking Quarian/Geth mission proves there can be peace between Synthetics and Organics, which stands in complete opposite of what the starkid tells you.

The fact that Buzz Aldrin says there is another story about The Shepard. If there is another story, the endings COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.

Modifié par NoSpin, 23 mars 2012 - 06:30 .

[durasteel]

I do not agree with all of your points. For example, Benezia, Saren, and TIM all managed to resist indoctrination even after it had completely taken control of them, if even for a small window. With the research into indoctrination from Lawson, reversing it permanently should not be out of the question, especially if the subject has not yet fully surrendered.

Still, I concede that there are problems with the Indoctrination Theory. It is not perfect. However--and this is the important bit--it is infinitely better, more coherent, and more consistent that an explanation that accepts the end sequence as "real."

[NoSpin]

Saren was indoctrinated, he just didn't know it. You think you are yourself, but you aren't Just like Shepard says at the end to TIM. Wow....why would Bioware be so nice as to point that out....you think you are yourself, but you really aren't.

[dreman9999]

NoSpin wrote...

Without dreams IT has nothing?

Shepard shot in the same place as Anderson.
Buzzing on the Normandy.
Casual clothes on the Citadel, yet ARMOR when he breathes.
The Control choice being Paragon Blue.
Nobody sees the kid. Nobody.
The star child "smiling" when you choose Control
The fact that the while freaking Quarian/Geth mission proves there can be peace between Synthetics and Organics, which stands in complete opposite of what the starkid tells you.

The fact that Buzz Aldrin says there is another story about The Shepard. If there is another story, the endings COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.

Also, Seran arguement in ME1 is exactly like the star kid arguement  with the synthesis option.

[Aurvant]

I will say this though:

The outfit that Shepard is wearing at the end doesn't really look like the casual clothes. It looks like severely damaged armor with the plating torn off.

The arms look as of they've been sheared off in the blast exposing the skin underneath. If you look at Shepard's back you can see that the armor is still there because the circular and parallel lights on the back of the armor are still present. The lights are just deactivated from the damage.

[NoSpin]

But then his armor just regenerates during the breathing scene?

[dreman9999]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The dream can simply be survivors guilt. The child was the first victim that Shepard ever could have saved but didn't. He watched that same child he couldn't save die. Everyone that's died in the universe before that child was either by Shepard's hand or in a circumstance that was beyond Shepard's control. But this child he could've physically saved but didn't. The child then died. THat's survivors guilt in a nutshell much like Garrus's traitor Sidonis who got his team killed and couldn't sleep afterwards. The shadows in the dream most likely represent the people that have been killed that Shepard also couldn't save by countless numbers. People of earth, Palavan, Thessia, etc. The numbers go into the millions and who knows how many have died. The shadows represent those unknown deaths that Shepard was once again powerless to save. He's a soldier he's got a lot on his mind his dreams show that. While everyone would prefer the damn child stay dead it makes sense that GUILT not indoctrination is the driving factor to his constant reappearance.

Which why it works so well as subtle indoctrination....You would have though it was about  seviviors guilt. The fact remain that indocrtination is subtle...You would never know until it's too late.

Modifié par dreman9999, 23 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[CroGamer002]

Aurvant wrote...

@Mesina:

Saren had been indoctrinated for years. His claims that he had free will we're proven false when he began to question Sovereign's motives. He mind was being controlled and when he tried to stop it he was wracked with pain from it. Saren had to end his own life because he realized that he had been indoctrinated all along.

Hell, he even says that Sovereign implanted those pieces in him because Saren kept trying to resist and question Sovereign's motives. The effects of Indoctrination makes its victims believe that they aren't actually indoctrinated. The scene with the Illusive Man is proof of that as well. He believed that he was in control, but when he realized he truly wasn't he ended the influence by ending his own life.

If he was fully indoctrinated, there was no way Shepard could have pointed it out.


Hell, on Virmire he is trying to deflect indoctrination from Sovy.

In other words, not indoctrinated so not controlled.

Which is kinda point of indoctrination, to control some subject.

[CroGamer002]

durasteel wrote...

I do not agree with all of your points. For example, Benezia, Saren, and TIM all managed to resist indoctrination even after it had completely taken control of them, if even for a small window. With the research into indoctrination from Lawson, reversing it permanently should not be out of the question, especially if the subject has not yet fully surrendered.

Only that Benezia was clear that she sealed part of her mind to give a message in right time.

Saren and Illusive Man were not fully indoctrinated so hence they were not controlled.

But were sure as hell close to total control, but Shepard helps them realize then and they commit suicide.

Still, I concede that there are problems with the Indoctrination Theory. It is not perfect. However--and this is the important bit--it is infinitely better, more coherent, and more consistent that an explanation that accepts the end sequence as "real."

No, this theory is even WORSE then actual endings.

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

Aurvant wrote...

@Mesina:

Saren had been indoctrinated for years. His claims that he had free will we're proven false when he began to question Sovereign's motives. He mind was being controlled and when he tried to stop it he was wracked with pain from it. Saren had to end his own life because he realized that he had been indoctrinated all along.

Hell, he even says that Sovereign implanted those pieces in him because Saren kept trying to resist and question Sovereign's motives. The effects of Indoctrination makes its victims believe that they aren't actually indoctrinated. The scene with the Illusive Man is proof of that as well. He believed that he was in control, but when he realized he truly wasn't he ended the influence by ending his own life.

If he was fully indoctrinated, there was no way Shepard could have pointed it out.


Hell, on Virmire he is trying to deflect indoctrination from Sovy.

In other words, not indoctrinated so not controlled.

Which is kinda point of indoctrination, to control some subject.

Full and total indoctrination is being a husk..... It's being mindless. Seran was an example of a person tricked to think he was in full control when he was not. Think agents can resist but are over whelmed at the later stage. They would never know they wereindoctrinated till someone pointed it out.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

NoSpin wrote...

Without dreams IT has nothing?

Shepard shot in the same place as Anderson.
Buzzing on the Normandy.
Casual clothes on the Citadel, yet ARMOR when he breathes.
The Control choice being Paragon Blue.
Nobody sees the kid. Nobody.
The star child "smiling" when you choose Control
The fact that the whole freaking Quarian/Geth mission proves there can be peace between Synthetics and Organics, which stands in complete opposite of what the starkid tells you.

The fact that Buzz Aldrin says there is another story about The Shepard. If there is another story, the endings COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.

::sighs:: I watched the scene countless times the Illusive man shoots shepard every time if you make him kill himself they just keep the scene anyways it probably wasn't meant to be looked at so analytically. 

Machines buzz the engine buzzes the engineers are right by the engine and for the last time idk where people are getting this idea the Normandy was NOT made with any sort of reaper tech that idea is just silly unproved and i don't know why indoctrination theorists try to bring it up.

For the last time YOU ARE NOT IN CASUAL CLOTHES EVER! you go to the citadel in armor messed up armor but armor it's never casual clothes. 

The star child smiles no matter what you chose that's just a minor factor. nobody cares about the kid the fact no one sees him is questionable. The normal reactions to seeing a child no one else sees isn't there. The soldiers wait for him to get on before they shut the shuttle, anderson never asks who you're talking to as if you were talking to yourself it's never even mentioned. The idea of the kid being the AI fits with the dreams of survivors guild the child is fresh in his mind a life he can't forget the reapers use that to communicate picking the old cliche of "We chose a form that seemed best suited for you"

That last thing...that's what the synthesis option is suppose to represent. TIM chose control Anderson chose destroy they give you the option to chose a different method to make people like yourself no more war, hate, or cycles, just the next step in evolution where all forces are allowed to coexist in a sybiotic relationship. 

Any other questions that need answering? 

[dreman9999]

Mesina2 wrote...

durasteel wrote...

I do not agree with all of your points. For example, Benezia, Saren, and TIM all managed to resist indoctrination even after it had completely taken control of them, if even for a small window. With the research into indoctrination from Lawson, reversing it permanently should not be out of the question, especially if the subject has not yet fully surrendered.

Only that Benezia was clear that she sealed part of her mind to give a message in right time.

Saren and Illusive Man were not fully indoctrinated so hence they were not controlled.

But were sure as hell close to total control, but Shepard helps them realize then and they commit suicide.

Still, I concede that there are problems with the Indoctrination Theory. It is not perfect. However--and this is the important bit--it is infinitely better, more coherent, and more consistent that an explanation that accepts the end sequence as "real."

No, this theory is even WORSE then actual endings.

Benezia has the mental train to do that being an asari martriach. Seran and TIM HAD YEARS TO BE OVER COME. sHEP IS NOT AT THE LEVEL YET AND CAN STILL RESIST THE ATTEMPS.

Also, the ending are far worse. To say it's real is th say Shepar can breath in space and not be shot off into space when the citidel explodes.

Modifié par dreman9999, 23 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[bleetman]

Yeah, you aren't wearing casual clothes during the citadel section. You're visibly, clearly wearing N7 armour.

Battered, burnt and missing a few pieces, but still. It's armour.

[NoSpin]

No way is it worse than the endings. From a writing standpoint, if they come out in April and say that they meant it as an indoctrination from the beginning, and point out clues they we haven't even mentioned, it will be flat out superb writing.

They wanted to surprise gamers down the road with DLC, or the announcement of ME4 at E3, but the crying got so loud they needed to act faster. My theory on the whole situation. They wanted to look like geniuses, but the community is forcing their hand.

[NoSpin]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

Without dreams IT has nothing?

Shepard shot in the same place as Anderson.
Buzzing on the Normandy.
Casual clothes on the Citadel, yet ARMOR when he breathes.
The Control choice being Paragon Blue.
Nobody sees the kid. Nobody.
The star child "smiling" when you choose Control
The fact that the whole freaking Quarian/Geth mission proves there can be peace between Synthetics and Organics, which stands in complete opposite of what the starkid tells you.

The fact that Buzz Aldrin says there is another story about The Shepard. If there is another story, the endings COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.

::sighs:: I watched the scene countless times the Illusive man shoots shepard every time if you make him kill himself they just keep the scene anyways it probably wasn't meant to be looked at so analytically. 

Machines buzz the engine buzzes the engineers are right by the engine and for the last time idk where people are getting this idea the Normandy was NOT made with any sort of reaper tech that idea is just silly unproved and i don't know why indoctrination theorists try to bring it up.

For the last time YOU ARE NOT IN CASUAL CLOTHES EVER! you go to the citadel in armor messed up armor but armor it's never casual clothes. 

The star child smiles no matter what you chose that's just a minor factor. nobody cares about the kid the fact no one sees him is questionable. The normal reactions to seeing a child no one else sees isn't there. The soldiers wait for him to get on before they shut the shuttle, anderson never asks who you're talking to as if you were talking to yourself it's never even mentioned. The idea of the kid being the AI fits with the dreams of survivors guild the child is fresh in his mind a life he can't forget the reapers use that to communicate picking the old cliche of "We chose a form that seemed best suited for you"

That last thing...that's what the synthesis option is suppose to represent. TIM chose control Anderson chose destroy they give you the option to chose a different method to make people like yourself no more war, hate, or cycles, just the next step in evolution where all forces are allowed to coexist in a sybiotic relationship. 

Any other questions that need answering? 

EDI states the Reaper IFF from ME2 is still on board. If you Destroy the Reapers Starchild vanishes instantly. And Shepard states that he won't give up humanity in the fight, Synthesis turns humans into cyborg things via space magic. That is giving up humanity and is what Saren wanted (aka Soverign) in the first game.

[Aurvant]

@Mesina:

No, Saren was already indoctrinated and it's pointed out to him. The way indoctrination works is that it makes it's victims believe they are actually in control of the situation. The reason why Saren and Illusive Man become so agitated is because Shepard's questions cause them to doubt themselves. They are experiencing cognitive dissonance and they're holding two conflicting ideas at the same time.

The problem with indoctrination, in the case of Saren especially, is that the effect doesn't allow it's victims to toss out the conflicting idea. It forces them to, in Saren's case very painfully, conclude that the only ideal worth keeping is the one preset by the Reapers. Saren recognized that he was indoctrinated, but also realized that he could never be redeemed due to the effects of it. So, he ended his life and so did TIM at the end of ME3.

That's why indoctrination is so insidious. It happens and the people indoctrinated do. Ot realize that they've been affected.

[Cucobr]

it's so funny see dudes defending space magic, god-kid etc etc... but... they can't explain the final CG when Shepard wake up.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

dreman9999 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The dream can simply be survivors guilt. The child was the first victim that Shepard ever could have saved but didn't. He watched that same child he couldn't save die. Everyone that's died in the universe before that child was either by Shepard's hand or in a circumstance that was beyond Shepard's control. But this child he could've physically saved but didn't. The child then died. THat's survivors guilt in a nutshell much like Garrus's traitor Sidonis who got his team killed and couldn't sleep afterwards. The shadows in the dream most likely represent the people that have been killed that Shepard also couldn't save by countless numbers. People of earth, Palavan, Thessia, etc. The numbers go into the millions and who knows how many have died. The shadows represent those unknown deaths that Shepard was once again powerless to save. He's a soldier he's got a lot on his mind his dreams show that. While everyone would prefer the damn child stay dead it makes sense that GUILT not indoctrination is the driving factor to his constant reappearance.

Which why it works so well as subtle indoctrination....You would have though it was about  seviviors guilt. The fact remain that indocrtination is subtle...You would never know until it's too late.

It isn't THAT subtle at a certain point you realize you're starting to think different act different the doctor on arrival is a good example she expected to feel happy but started to feel disturbed about destroying the realays. That's subtle indoctrination but you can tell that something is wrong. Shepard on the other hand never acts out of character never questions his motives only how difficult the task at hand is which is a normal organic response. The signs are apparent and I think with a Prothean and Asari and a LI through 3 games SOMEONE would've noticed a change in shepards demeanor. Granted Shepard could have been made a sleeper agent but what's the point? And why the 30 seconds of actual indoctrination theory taking place with TIM only? Why be able to talk TIM into resisting and blowing his brains out. When I think about it the reason indoctrination doesn't seem right is nothing Shepard does benefits the reapers. The idea of Harbringer or any reaper being this convoluted and complex in a plan with a very simple goal is strange to me. Even Saren was just a tool to allow the reapers access there was no plan after that it was Step 1) get to earth Step 2) ????? Step 3) harvest.

The indoctrination theory could make sense normally but the reapers weren't exactly struggling in the battle if you're already winning why focus on alternate plans to make you win. If you're unbeatable why create a contingency plan. If anything the ending makes more sense because the reapers DIDN'T have a contingency plan and just never expected an organic to reach that point. (After all Shepard was the first). So while I don't completely deny the idea of indoctrination the methods of the reapers and their ideals don't match the idea of creating a fantasy world for shepard to trick him....it's just...out of character to me. 

[Aceor]

[dreman9999]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The dream can simply be survivors guilt. The child was the first victim that Shepard ever could have saved but didn't. He watched that same child he couldn't save die. Everyone that's died in the universe before that child was either by Shepard's hand or in a circumstance that was beyond Shepard's control. But this child he could've physically saved but didn't. The child then died. THat's survivors guilt in a nutshell much like Garrus's traitor Sidonis who got his team killed and couldn't sleep afterwards. The shadows in the dream most likely represent the people that have been killed that Shepard also couldn't save by countless numbers. People of earth, Palavan, Thessia, etc. The numbers go into the millions and who knows how many have died. The shadows represent those unknown deaths that Shepard was once again powerless to save. He's a soldier he's got a lot on his mind his dreams show that. While everyone would prefer the damn child stay dead it makes sense that GUILT not indoctrination is the driving factor to his constant reappearance.

Which why it works so well as subtle indoctrination....You would have though it was about  seviviors guilt. The fact remain that indocrtination is subtle...You would never know until it's too late.

It isn't THAT subtle at a certain point you realize you're starting to think different act different the doctor on arrival is a good example she expected to feel happy but started to feel disturbed about destroying the realays. That's subtle indoctrination but you can tell that something is wrong. Shepard on the other hand never acts out of character never questions his motives only how difficult the task at hand is which is a normal organic response. The signs are apparent and I think with a Prothean and Asari and a LI through 3 games SOMEONE would've noticed a change in shepards demeanor. Granted Shepard could have been made a sleeper agent but what's the point? And why the 30 seconds of actual indoctrination theory taking place with TIM only? Why be able to talk TIM into resisting and blowing his brains out. When I think about it the reason indoctrination doesn't seem right is nothing Shepard does benefits the reapers. The idea of Harbringer or any reaper being this convoluted and complex in a plan with a very simple goal is strange to me. Even Saren was just a tool to allow the reapers access there was no plan after that it was Step 1) get to earth Step 2) ????? Step 3) harvest.

The indoctrination theory could make sense normally but the reapers weren't exactly struggling in the battle if you're already winning why focus on alternate plans to make you win. If you're unbeatable why create a contingency plan. If anything the ending makes more sense because the reapers DIDN'T have a contingency plan and just never expected an organic to reach that point. (After all Shepard was the first). So while I don't completely deny the idea of indoctrination the methods of the reapers and their ideals don't match the idea of creating a fantasy world for shepard to trick him....it's just...out of character to me. 

Again. It's at the very start...I would not have that effect yet.
Also, it make sense because you have the crucible....As long as you have the crucible...They can lose.

Modifié par dreman9999, 23 mars 2012 - 06:52 .

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Cucobr wrote...

it's so funny see dudes defending space magic, god-kid etc etc... but... they can't explain the final CG when Shepard wake up.

I've explained this tons of times no one believes me. Apparently we can breath in space and have robots that reprogram your brain from miles away but my theory is impossible. 

1)Shepard had billions of credits of experimental synthetics

2)The cruicble is a giant six billion year old machine of unknown origin and function. All we know is it stops the reapers and destroys the relays in a way that doesn't destroy the systems and annihilate all organic life in the process. 

3)We are aware that the synthetics in Shepard did indeed survive up to this point and that the Cruicble would affect his synthetics in some way.

4)The reapers have a degree of time and space manipulation and oganics have a degree of understanding with stasis and stopping time in enclosed areas. 

5) is it such an impossibility in sci-fi that the crucible destroyed the synthetics by restoring shepard to a point where his body didn't need them. Remember these synthetics were keeping him alive but with the effects of the magic 6 billion year old machine of unknown anything who's to say the reaction with the synthetics wasn't enough to shoot some life back into shepard. Thus the gasp he's coming back to life rather than waking up it sounded like he was taking breath for the first time.

6) Shepard survived the fall once somehow keeping his body and brain in tact granted it required 4 billion credits and 2 years time but this was before SHepard had anything in him this time he's different modified stronger. Though still himself. I also think that this is the reason he can't be indoctrinated, he never did anything really indoctrination worthy until 2 after he was rebuilt for the most part ME1 didn't have a lot of scenes where indoctrination seemed possible. 

[Iwillbeback]

Mesina2 wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Mesina2 you ignored my post back on page 2 near the bottom.

Please give a good response.

Why should I?

You're just speculating like others and I'm trying to respond as much people as possible.

Have to ignore some posts that are identical to ones I already responded.

But your points make no sense and are incompetent.
How can you respond to posts debunking your points by saying the same silly thing that sound childish over and over again.