306 réponses à ce sujet

[thegame30]

So the Starchild had miracle powers?
We were bleeding and unconscious some people may even argue dying. Yet we were taken to his area by this godlike elevator. An some had the strength to run and jump into the Space Magic light, or like me use our "INFINITE AMMO GUN". Walk to the the tube and shoot at it.

Infinite ammo makes no sense. Unless your dreaming or inside something like Legions mission about the reaper code infecting them.

[dreman9999]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

it's so funny see dudes defending space magic, god-kid etc etc... but... they can't explain the final CG when Shepard wake up.

I've explained this tons of times no one believes me. Apparently we can breath in space and have robots that reprogram your brain from miles away but my theory is impossible. 

1)Shepard had billions of credits of experimental synthetics

2)The cruicble is a giant six billion year old machine of unknown origin and function. All we know is it stops the reapers and destroys the relays in a way that doesn't destroy the systems and annihilate all organic life in the process. 

3)We are aware that the synthetics in Shepard did indeed survive up to this point and that the Cruicble would affect his synthetics in some way.

4)The reapers have a degree of time and space manipulation and oganics have a degree of understanding with stasis and stopping time in enclosed areas. 

5) is it such an impossibility in sci-fi that the crucible destroyed the synthetics by restoring shepard to a point where his body didn't need them. Remember these synthetics were keeping him alive but with the effects of the magic 6 billion year old machine of unknown anything who's to say the reaction with the synthetics wasn't enough to shoot some life back into shepard. Thus the gasp he's coming back to life rather than waking up it sounded like he was taking breath for the first time.

6) Shepard survived the fall once somehow keeping his body and brain in tact granted it required 4 billion credits and 2 years time but this was before SHepard had anything in him this time he's different modified stronger. Though still himself. I also think that this is the reason he can't be indoctrinated, he never did anything really indoctrination worthy until 2 after he was rebuilt for the most part ME1 didn't have a lot of scenes where indoctrination seemed possible. 

1. That doen't mean he can servive the void of space and a fall from space.
2.It doen't mean it can do space magic
3.Shep is only alive because ofhis synthetics. If they don't wotk...He's dead.
4.Reapers can't do that.
5. You don't see that it's odd that the synthesis choice is exactly like Seran arguement in ME1?
6..Uh...SHEP die from it.

I think you need to watch this...
 

[Hunter_Wolf]

Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.

After some talk to it, Kai Leng jumps in and VI goes to hide since it can detect indoctrinated troops.
Also when you recover it on Illusive Man base after taking care of Kai Leng, it also says all indoctrinated troops are detected.

So my question is, why that thing hasn't detected indoctrination on Shepard? If this theory is true, that is.
Now, you may say that it was too subtle, cause that happen on Eden Prime to Javik. Many of his people were indoctrinated and betray them without their VI knowing.

But I say, wouldn't those VI's be updated after that?
Plus, Kai Leng doesn't even look indoctrinated that much so how come Vi can detect on him but not on Shepard?

Indoctrination hasn't been fully realized in any game. Only hinted at via words or heresay by other individuals. It was always said Shepard's will was extrodinary. Ideally knocking him out is the only way to fully get into his mind under the IT-theory. But we saw during the Arrival, his weakness succumbing to the Reaper Relic the more he held out. In fact, you will pass out if you outlast the waves that come after you. As for the VI, when you encounter it on the Cerberus base it states: "My security protocols have been broken, I will comply." So it doesn't really answer one way or another, even if it was working - it was cracked and spilled out information regardless.

2. Javik.

Guy can read your mind.
Why doesn't he detect you're indoctrinated and throws you out of airlock?

Javik is a Prothean and even Protheans were susceptible to indoctrination. They were so weak against it that they hadn't known their own species were indoctrinated until it was too late. Vigil confirms this and Javik's commentary also supported it, only did he kill his former comrades when he finally realized whose side they were apart of.

3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?

I... what?

4. Indoctrination is made very easy.

This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.

That's a pretty big plothole.

Not really. Even some Protheans, while not fully understanding Indoctrination, resisted it much as how Shepard does. Though it can be argued, nothing is completely immune but strong will can make you resist. Those who resisted were wiped out when the Reapers destroyed the Protheans and, unfortunately, Javik doesn't really open up on this subject to give us additional details; I'd say he is one such Prothean who also resists.

5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.

Why the hell would Shepard be indoctrinated in just 3-4 years then?
And he was dead for 2 years!

So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?

I don't buy that.

Argueably Shepard has been the only subject in the current Cycle to be around Reaper tech so often. Saren had a ship and we don't know if TIM had anything other than the Humanoid Reaper which he didn't get until after ME2. And it's still abundantly clear Shepard was resisting even in close proximity to a Reaper Relic. Indoctrination is a long process but it shortens by contact and how much force the Reaper is exerting.

6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.

Saren shot himself. TIM will shoot himself, there's always another way. It's power of suggestion vs willpower.




I just get this feeling you're one of those CoD kids who raged over Halo: Reach because it was the "cool-thing". Regardless of IT being theory or there was a plan we weren't told about, you're going against a movement because you don't quite understand it but it's also vastly popular. That's fine but the arguments you list don't conclude in anyway your points in this argument.

Modifié par Hunter_Wolf, 23 mars 2012 - 07:04 .

[NM_Che56]

Liara was my LI. I chose her to do the final run to the beam with me. How did she get back on the Normandy? She exited the wreckage with a smile on her face. I just got blown the *%$ up! Why are you smiling?!

[Hunter_Wolf]

thegame30 wrote...

So the Starchild had miracle powers?
We were bleeding and unconscious some people may even argue dying. Yet we were taken to his area by this godlike elevator. An some had the strength to run and jump into the Space Magic light, or like me use our "INFINITE AMMO GUN". Walk to the the tube and shoot at it.

Infinite ammo makes no sense. Unless your dreaming or inside something like Legions mission about the reaper code infecting them.

Infinite Ammo, not being able to interact with Keepers, that's all a challenge mechanic. You couldn't kill Keepers in ME1 (where you could pull out your weapons in a hub mind you ) or interact with them in ME2 except for a codex opportunity. So I find this an invalid argument, you barely fight any mobs anyways so what's the point of supplying thermalclips? And what if you wasted your ammo due to child antics, well then the destroy option can't be completed. 


But to the OP's credit, he isn't defending space magic. He wants the entire ending retconned, erased, eradicated; something else to replace it entirely.

Modifié par Hunter_Wolf, 23 mars 2012 - 07:01 .

[thegame30]

Master Che wrote...

Liara was my LI. I chose her to do the final run to the beam with me. How did she get back on the Normandy? She exited the wreckage with a smile on her face. I just got blown the *%$ up! Why are you smiling?!

Indoctrinated forces argue plot-holes and bad writing.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Infinite ammo makes perfect sense you had infinite ammo the older guns had permanent ammo Conrad and Shepard talk about how the universe upgraded could've easily been a soldier who didn't want to use thermal clips and went with an older model. It even LOOKS like an older model gun. The godlike elevator I lead to space magic no point in trying to figure that one out.

if that's not good enough you only need about 20 shots to do everything in the last level about 2-3 for each husk about 5 for the marauder and about 6 for the conduit. That's more than enough for a single gun to carry.

Not to mention there are scenes in destroy if you pay close attention there's one where the destroy wave only kills the reapers. But there is ANOTHER version of the wave that kills humans as well.

My only speculation is that this fits closer to the rushed ending idea that the general idea was made but there was meant to be more. I don't feel it was indoctrination because you only get the ending of Shepard alive with enough resources and without those resources humans die. This lead me to think that there was suppose to be more to the ending but between the lead writers sticking to their "integrity" and EA pushing to release and wanting their profit over all else. Then again I just like sticking to space magic. Makes more sense to me than "It was all a dream"

Also the party members never actually go with you.

Modifié par ShepardTheHopeful, 23 mars 2012 - 07:05 .

[CroGamer002]

Aceor wrote...

I lol'd.



BTW, done with responding.
I would just go in circles.

Already did that once on BSN, won't do it again.

[I Soya I]

I was going to respond when this was on page two, but I walked away and now it's on eight so I apologize if anything I say is already covered or debunked. This is directly related to the OP and I havn't really read anything else or edited accordingly.

Theory is terrible? No. Unconfirmed and possibly false? Yes. Now allow me to debunk your reasons as to why it is "terrible".  Your reasons, although for the most part reasonable thinking, in no way disprove anything.  Believe what you want, no one should be forceing anything down anyones throat until we hear something from Bioware.


 1) Why wasn't Shepard noticed by the VI? The theory covers this... And has multiple times. Shepard is not indoctrinated, they are trying to indoctrinate him, and the space ghost jr scene is the process that breaks the fine line between the process and actual indoctrination.   As for the "wouldn't the VI be updated" claim, that hardly stands to reason.  If the VI didn't detect indoctrinated sleeper agents and then that caused the prothean downfall, why would anyone have time to upgrade the VI, let alone have time to run tests to figure out how to do it?  If it was that easily detectable wouldn't the reapers rely less on this tactic of sleeper agents?  Wouldn't the protheans have already lost for the most part? Wouldn't they have OTHER major concerns by the time they figured this out?  (Granted I didn't pay 10 dollars for squadmate dlc cause I didn't think it was worth it, so maybe I just don't understand how the Javik junk operates. I am basing my assertion purely off of the information I picked up in your statement.) Kai Leng was detected because he had reaper tech implants, so since he had ACTUAL reaper tech in him it would make him pretty easy to detect no matter how far in the indoctrination process he was.

2) Can be explained for the same reasons as the beginning of #1. Besides, if you don't know you're being indoctrinated then how would he be able to read your mind to tell? (Again... no Javik for me.)

3) Why screw around with his mind you ask? Because they are trying to indoctrinate him... I'm not srue that I understand your point.  For the second potion of this where you ask why shepard wants to destroy the reapers? Again, not indoctrinated yet. This descision is what ultimately decides if Shep is going to be successfully indoctrinated or not.

4) This claim is just silly as this would apply whether or not the IT is true and is therefor unrelated to your argument.  And besides, the reapers do use idoctrination  as a way to seperate galactic forces . Actually, if I'm not mistaken, this is also how they created their infantry front... Once they have people indoctrinated and their forces aren't united, they go in and reap.  So basically the reapers already do what you are suggesting and just reaping while they do it.  

5) You could be right, but I think you are just making up information here. From my understanding, Saren didn't get implants until near the end of the game and he was obviously indoctrinated since day one (He killed his buddy Nihlus remember?), and I'm pretty sure that TIM didn't have implants in him for 30 years (especially considering there wasn't really much awareness of their existence until the events in ME1).

6) How do you know there is no way out of indoctrination? You convinced Saren he was being indoctrinated didn't you?  He wasn't able to regain control because of the implants though.  Maybe you could be right, but regardless you cannot know that anymore than I can what happens afterwards.  Why? Because it hasn't actually happened yet.  You assume you will know what happens, but only Bioware knows the true nature of how the subtleties of indoctrination work.  And besides, in what way would Shep be a reaper controlled husk? Like how Saren was when you convinced him he was indoctrinated?  How Benezia was able to have a non-indoctrinated talk with you? They seemed to have at least some level of control to me, and they were deep into their indoctrination process. The idea with Shepards is that his is either beginning or at a midway point that tips the scales so to speak.  So to say that there is no where to go from here on the story arc except to say Shepard is a husk is shortsighted.

Even if it were not, in no way is it ever implied that someone is just a mindless husk.  I believe that the way it works is that the longer indoctrination sets in, the less ability one has to control themselves and lose their minds.  Even if it was rapid indoctrination, the codex says it would still take a little for the victem to lose their minds, it is not instantaneous with indoctrination.  So if I am correct in saying that, then it would make far more sense that he wouldn't be a husk than that he would -.- 

How do you know the only option is to commit suicide? Are you scripting the game? What if he pulls a Benezia and regains control temporarily?  Why would the choices you made throughout the game not matter? Perhaps regardless of your indoctrination, if you have an army powerfull enough you pull through long enough to get the job done but Shepard dies. Or maybe if you resist, and you have a good enough army, then Shepard pulls through in the end and lives (ME1 style heroic ending?) I could create far more scenarios that would varey in likelyhood. None of them would be valid to my argument.  Speculating on what happens after the game without providing any support for your claim does not  "prove" anything. It may be a reason for you to believe what you do, but it is not valid in a persuasive argument (this goes for both sides). Basically your argument is, "I don't know how they would pull it off, so I choose not to believe it."

The final hours app implies that the orriginal intent of the game was to have Shepard indoctrinated and that they wanted to have a gameplay mechanic to show this, but it was too hard to do. This doesn't mean the idea was scrapped. If anything this supports the theory by showing that only a few months before release Bioware was actually working on story elements that involve Shepard being indoctrinated.  

I dont feel like explaining this because it is so obvious, but your reasoning for saying Shepard isn't synthetic actually proves he is partially synthetic -.- Should that partially synthetic part be killed by destroy, Shepard could not possibly survive seeing as it is the only reason he is alive to begin with.

And if this was their plan all along then they should definately make the DLC for free and not cheat us out of an ending. Everyone pretty much agrees that this would be a dick move if they made us pay and they had always planned it.  Although I would respect their story telling ability, I would not trust them in the future.

Like I said, your reasons are valid and I am not bashing anything or forceing anything so I am sorry if it sounds that way. I'm just letting you know that you have "proved" nothing, just as I am sure I proved nothing to you.  The theory is not "terrible" in terms of how it is constructed.  You just shared why you don't believe in the IT, thats all.

Modifié par I Soya I, 23 mars 2012 - 07:07 .

[Hunter_Wolf]

Mesina2 wrote...

BTW, done with responding.
I would just go in circles.

Already did that once on BSN, won't do it again.

Because you can't defend your own argument. I'm all for difference in opinion but if it hobbles around, "Oh, in short, I just didn't do the research." which isn't credible. Everything you recite is either prone to further speculation or downright false due to lack of personal interest in the research. Sorry brah, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

[thegame30]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Infinite ammo makes perfect sense you had infinite ammo the older guns had permanent ammo Conrad and Shepard talk about how the universe upgraded could've easily been a soldier who didn't want to use thermal clips and went with an older model. It even LOOKS like an older model gun. The godlike elevator I lead to space magic no point in trying to figure that one out.

if that's not good enough you only need about 20 shots to do everything in the last level about 2-3 for each husk about 5 for the marauder and about 6 for the conduit. That's more than enough for a single gun to carry.

Not to mention there are scenes in destroy if you pay close attention there's one where the destroy wave only kills the reapers. But there is ANOTHER version of the wave that kills humans as well.

My only speculation is that this fits closer to the rushed ending idea that the general idea was made but there was meant to be more. I don't feel it was indoctrination because you only get the ending of Shepard alive with enough resources and without those resources humans die. This lead me to think that there was suppose to be more to the ending but between the lead writers sticking to their "integrity" and EA pushing to release and wanting their profit over all else. Then again I just like sticking to space magic. Makes more sense to me than "It was all a dream"

Also the party members never actually go with you.

If it is a older model gun, should overheat right?
The destruction ending that kills human is with a low EMS. So we can choose destruction 100 times and fail because we had low EMS.

Modifié par thegame30, 23 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[sgreco1970]

Mesina2 wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

It seems your only arguments are extremely weak ones.

The Protheans could not detect the Protheans who betrayed them and neither could the VI's.
That is why your debunk is flawed.

And other evidence I showed against it?

Or you just read only first one?

no i read them all and it doesnt really mean much.

[Hunter_Wolf]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Infinite ammo makes perfect sense you had infinite ammo the older guns had permanent ammo Conrad and Shepard talk about how the universe upgraded could've easily been a soldier who didn't want to use thermal clips and went with an older model. It even LOOKS like an older model gun. The godlike elevator I lead to space magic no point in trying to figure that one out.

Uhh...
It was a cornnilex which is the same pistol you got from ME2 (also same skin of the Spectre Pistol from ME1) and in ME2 it was explained why thermal clips were used and the old weapon models became discarded. It was easier to rely on thermal clips because you could could toss them out when spent, and get a replacement. 

The problem with the old models, and this is going just by the lore ( because in the end it was a design choice to make combat feel more fluid and engaging, since ME's shooting was pretty boring ), is that they overheated and thus become unreliable. You're fighting tens of hundres of Geth and your AR suddenly overheats so then you'd spend some amount of seconds waiting for it to cool off before you could use it again.

Modifié par Hunter_Wolf, 23 mars 2012 - 07:12 .

[dreman9999]

@]Mesina2 

Watch this...

It awnsers all your questions.

[Hunter_Wolf]

dreman9999 wrote...

@]Mesina2 

Watch this...

It awnsers all your questions.

Pretty sure he's seen the videos. It's a conscious decision for him not to like it because for whatever reason, he doesn't like the story of ME as a whole. Therefore, missing crucial points that made Indoctrination such a diabolical weapon as well as reveal their weakness.

[Bourne Endeavor]

There is actually plenty of evidence to theorize resistance to indoctrination to some extent is entirely feasible. While the Rachni Queen has been brought into the discussion, I am going to include a few other explains.

Saren 
In his own way, Saren resisted indoctrination - enough Sovereign deemed it necessary to implant him with upgrades. While we can certainly speculate this was due to Saren’s beliefs, it also raises the question why Sovereign did not merely intensify the hold it had over Saren.

Benezia
She managed to close a fragment of her mind, preventing it from indoctrinating her as a whole. Now Shepard is not an Asari Matriarch however, this does demonstration resistance on a greater level than most show. Benezia’s foil was she did not realize until it was too late, what was happening. What if she had been, could she resist the process more so than she did?

Rana Thanoptis and Ganto Imness
You meet both during the raid on Saren’s facility. They have been exposed to indoctrination’s tendencies as they have in close proximity to Sovereign and Rana herself comments on it. Neither show long lasting effects until ME3, where Rana supposedly succumbs to indoctrination on Thessia.

Shepard
Shepard is no longer pure human but a cybernetic variation. The Lazarus Project entailed reconstructing Shepard from “meat and tubes,” including her brain. Perhaps, Shepard has herself unique resistance because of this. We can only speculate but the theory does hold merit.

Arguably, the most convincing aspect to support resistance is proximity. Everyone else who has undergone complete indoctrination was exposed Reapers themselves or their technology, whereas for Shepard any exposure was always brief. Arrival depicted the only noticeable strain when Shepard collapsed, subsequently being knocked unconscious. This supports the notion of “fighting indoctrination.” If the IT proved accurate, it could conclusion with Shepard having to sacrifice herself, which would be the bittersweet ending BioWare promised.

The dream sequences could be the Reapers attempting to weaken Shepard’s resolve. She is the first organic in existence to cause them this great a burden. Her will is beyond comprehension and even the Reapers have to acknowledge this. Therefore, a slow debilitating process is logical. Create the seed of doubt and watch it blossom. How often does Shepard openly question their success? ME3 she is more pessimistic than ever before, which is a clear indication of indoctrination. Her mind is weakening, and in addition, her resolve.

How do we know the ease of indoctrination? Saren and TIM necessitating implants could refute this case entirely. Shepard herself is unique, as previously stated. Sovereign already attempted a full takeover in an act of desperate that ultimately resulting in its demise. Most victims exposed to indoctrination have been for some time. Suggesting the process is neither simple nor guaranteed. If it weakens them in combat, like with Sovereign, then considering the impending invasion, they might prefer the “firin mah lazer” approach.

Regardless, we are all aware this theory is reliant more on faith than evidence. It transcends the simplistic nature the narrative of Mass Effect is more accustom to and “indoctrinates” the fanbase. While that idea is intuitive and unique for a video game to achieve. The business aspect is wholly flawed, undermining profitability.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 23 mars 2012 - 07:19 .

[justafan]

1. VI's are not AI and are fallible. Also we know there were indoctrinated Prothean sleeper agents (either Vigil or codex says as much, I forget which), so their methods were certainly not foolproof.

2. Didn't get From Ashes so I know little about Prothy, but my point from above still stands, there were documented indoctrinated prothean sleeper agents.

3. There are many forms of indoctrination, the fast huskifying kind, and the slow method that subtly twists the victims mind over a period of time without their knowledge. The dreams could very well be a manifestation of this slow form. Benezia was also a powerful biotic and an asari who knew what was happening to her, and asari minds are funny so she was able to trap part of her. Also she was subject to a much more rapid and noticeable indoctrination than Shepard according to the Indoc theory.

4. I believe in one of the comics the reaper actually tried that on Palaven. And don't forget all the Rachni getting indoctrinated. Not to mention, it is assumed Shep's indoctrination has possibly been occurring over the course of over two years. And if you prefer to take object Rho as the catalyst of his indoctrination, that is still half a year for indoctrination to take root.

5. Only played the games myself so i don't know much about how long Saren was with sovereign, but on the subject of TIM, the whole deal of keeping a reaper corpse in your home base probably had something to do with his rapid descent to indoctrination. "dead" reapers can still indoctrinate.

6. Well, all Shepard has to do according to the indoctrination theory is resist a little longer. It took a long time to get Saren fully under control, and both Saren and TIM were heavily altered with reaper cybernetics. All Shep would have to do in the indoctrination theory is resist long enough to activate the "real" crucible to kill the reapers or what have you. Also final hours is vague just like most other bioware statements. Speculation remember?!

None of this proves the indoctrination theory, and while I wish it was true that the current ending were indoctrination, I personally believe what we got was what Bioware wanted as the true endings and they just flat out underestimated fan reaction to it. However, the indoctrination theory to me does present a very plausible "out" should Bioware wish to follow this course of action.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

dreman9999 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

it's so funny see dudes defending space magic, god-kid etc etc... but... they can't explain the final CG when Shepard wake up.

I've explained this tons of times no one believes me. Apparently we can breath in space and have robots that reprogram your brain from miles away but my theory is impossible. 

1)Shepard had billions of credits of experimental synthetics

2)The cruicble is a giant six billion year old machine of unknown origin and function. All we know is it stops the reapers and destroys the relays in a way that doesn't destroy the systems and annihilate all organic life in the process. 

3)We are aware that the synthetics in Shepard did indeed survive up to this point and that the Cruicble would affect his synthetics in some way.

4)The reapers have a degree of time and space manipulation and oganics have a degree of understanding with stasis and stopping time in enclosed areas. 

5) is it such an impossibility in sci-fi that the crucible destroyed the synthetics by restoring shepard to a point where his body didn't need them. Remember these synthetics were keeping him alive but with the effects of the magic 6 billion year old machine of unknown anything who's to say the reaction with the synthetics wasn't enough to shoot some life back into shepard. Thus the gasp he's coming back to life rather than waking up it sounded like he was taking breath for the first time.

6) Shepard survived the fall once somehow keeping his body and brain in tact granted it required 4 billion credits and 2 years time but this was before SHepard had anything in him this time he's different modified stronger. Though still himself. I also think that this is the reason he can't be indoctrinated, he never did anything really indoctrination worthy until 2 after he was rebuilt for the most part ME1 didn't have a lot of scenes where indoctrination seemed possible. 

1. That doen't mean he can servive the void of space and a fall from space.
2.It doen't mean it can do space magic
3.Shep is only alive because ofhis synthetics. If they don't wotk...He's dead.
4.Reapers can't do that.
5. You don't see that it's odd that the synthesis choice is exactly like Seran arguement in ME1?
6..Uh...SHEP die from it.

I think you need to watch this...
 

For the last itme sarens choice is NOTHING like the synthetic option. Saren specifically spoke about being tools for the reapers for proving our use to stay as a species. This was pointless as useful humans were just used to either lead to the harvesting of others or just get harvested themselves. 

Why can't it do space magic we know nothing about it we know nothing past the Protheans. that's 50k years this thing is BILLIONS of years old. And we thought the prothean race was the most amazing advanced race. We aren't even a 5th of that who knows how far behind the Protheans were to the race prior and they could indefinately put themselves in stasis long as they had power they were good. 

You obviously didn't read my post so I'm not going to give you an answer for your third comment

all i'm suggesting is that what happens to shepard the second time he falls from space to his death is similar to the first time with a reasonable variable to make it possible this time. 

Reapers can't do that is officially the dumbest pro indoctrination theory comment i've heard on forums to date. Good for you.

for the shep died comment if there was a facepalm emote I would put it here. Read the damn post before you comment on stuff I already explained and then try to link that stupid 21 minute video that only makes me believe that the indoctrination theory is inaccurate all the more. 

[thegame30]

dreman9999 wrote...

@]Mesina2 

Watch this...

It awnsers all your questions.

I am sorry man but that don't answer anything, is just a theory of what could had happend.
One i have no choice to hope is true...Because i didn't let Marauder Shields kill me, and ruin the ME series for me forever.

I said many times before people who just play ME3 may find the current endings average or good.
Now if you play the entire series this endings are retarded.

[Cucobr]

3. Why dreams?

Why would Shepard dream if he's indoctrinated? Whole point of indoctrination is to be controlled by Reapers.
Why screw around with his mind?

------------------------
I... what?

-------------------------

this. exactly.

BioWare want show to us how Indoc works. How it corrupt our minds.

and was a huge sucess, because still a player who defended it. Players who chose to control or synthesis.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

 I'm beginning to notice a lot of the indoctrination arguments for the theory are repeating the same things I already explained multiple times maybe I should stop. And even if the pistol was to overheat once again 18 shots incredibly slow firing speed. Doubtful that overheating would occur. But it'll just get repeated 40 more times so why bother I'm just gonna go with my original theory

= space magic
= Aliens
= wtf moment

 +  +  = mass effect 3 ending. There we go we can all go home and live our lives until the remake in april! 

[agathokakological]

I want to preface this by saying I respect your opinion. I simply disagree with you.
[quote]Mesina2 wrote...

1. Prothean VI on Thessia.
[/quote]
Can only detect late stages of indoctrination. This is evident in the flashbacks in From Ashes, where government officials who had created the VI were indoctrinated, and it wasn't evident until Javik was being sealed.

[quote]
2. Javik.[/quote]

The extent of how much he can read your mind is never explored. Because he could also read the aforementioned government officials' minds and couldn't tell they were indoctrinated the same time as the VI, this is also unfounded.

[quote]3. Why dreams?[/quote]

This is a frequently used means of mind control in literature and other media. It's the emotional pull, for a stronger form of indoctrination. Saren and TIM only gave up control when they experienced DOUBT. This shows that indoctrination is a means of emotional control, not logical, systematic control. That's why they are still in control of their body, they are just convinced that the Reapers are right, or that annihilation of the Reapers is not preferable. This method is preferred by some writers because it makes the control stronger if the subject truly BELIEVES they aren't being controlled. They don't resist.


[quote]So, why is Shepard still wanting to destroy Reapers, even though he's indoctrinated?[/quote]
He doesn't. By choosing Destroy, Shepard is resisting the indoctrination. Therefore, he was never indoctrinated. He is only indoctrinated by choosing Control or Synthesis.


[quote]This theory makes indoctrination really easy so makes me wonder why Reapers even bother with full invasion?
Just put some Reaper artifacts to be found and send to organic homeworlds.
Let the indoctrination begin without Reapers even bother to fire their giant lasers.[/quote]

Because that kind of destruction is very slow. They are on a schedule! But more precisely, indoctrination is a tool to make their invasion easier, it's not an alternative to invasion. This is because, as previously stated, indoctrination is just mind control. It can be in the case of Benezia, but it has no guarantees that it will last as resiliently.

[quote]5. Saren and Illusive Man.

This 2 had Reaper implants in themselves for 3 decades.
And yet only until end of ME1 and ME3 they got almost fully indoctrinated.[/quote]

You obviously haven't read Evolution. Saren and the Illusive Man were very exposed to a Reaper artifact that started their indoctrination that took roughly twenty, twenty-five years to fully germinate. To quote the Codex, "
Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. " Neither Saren or the Illusive Man have actual Reaper implants until the later half of ME1 and 3, respectively.



[quote]So Shepard is somehow strong willed to get Prothean Cipher like Saren, but it takes 10 time less time to be controlled by Reapers then Saren?[/quote]

Refuted by facts above.


[quote]6. Indoctrination is permanent.

If you are indoctrinated by Reapers, there is no way out.
You are done for, you are a Reaper controlled husk. You can't brake away from that.

So this theory in order to work with supposed DLC with proper ending requires to retcon indoctrination by Shepard braking away from indoctrination.[/quote]

Nope. It just means that Control and Synthesis are Game Over, as you would think they would be using common sense from the beginning of ME3 (or even halfway through ME1), and Destroy opens up the possibility of a proper, complete ending. This is evident by Destroy being the only ending where Shepard wakes up.


[quote]Saren and Illusive Man were NOT fully indoctrinated[/quote]

Fact: Yes they were. We can put the pieces together that the Reapers gave them the same ultimatum they're giving Shepard, and they chose green and blue, respectively. This doesn't mean they can't doubt the Reapers afterwards, but not for very long. Self-evident by suicide.

[quote]Also, "Final Hours" documentary pretty much proves indoctrination theory is not correct.
And no other theory is because Casey and Mac though it was a great way to end this trilogy with lot's of speculations.[/quote]

It makes no sense for them to make a speculative ending in this scenario unless they wanted to follow it up with something.

[quote]demand from them to make FREE DLC to fix endings.
And by that I mean overhaul them.
Starkid, Normandy escaping and Synthesis ending have to go away.[/quote]

First of all, free DLC isn't going to happen and I'm fine with that. Why? Because they're humans, and this would cost hours upon hours of work from a large staff. Regardless of what they "should" have done then, they should be paid for the work they do.

Second, why would you ask for an overhaul, which makes so much less sense from a programming perspective, than simply adopting this post-game method, which addresses all of the plot holes and makes the programming much simpler?

Ultimately, your analysis is fundamentally skewed.

[Hunter_Wolf]

justafan wrote...
2. Didn't get From Ashes so I know little about Prothy, but my point from above still stands, there were documented indoctrinated prothean sleeper agents.

Javik relents on his past where he explains his crew were indoctrinated and while he found out when it was too late, he ended up killing them all himself when he encountered them. He even goes on to say he watched them bleed to death just to make sure.

[Hunter_Wolf]

agathokakological wrote...
Because that kind of destruction is very slow. They are on a schedule! But more precisely, indoctrination is a tool to make their invasion easier, it's not an alternative to invasion. This is because, as previously stated, indoctrination is just mind control. It can be in the case of Benezia, but it has no guarantees that it will last as resiliently.

Figured I'd also add to it.

Don't forget Vigil also mentions how Reapers were not indestructible. Without the access to the Citadel, Sovereign was vulnerable because, as seen, one Reaper wouldn't be able to beat a fully coordinated armada even with it's inferior weaponry. Reapers weren't invincible and it was still a concern, the idea of Indoctrination was thought to be means to break the enemy's front lines and turn the tides of war in the Reaper's favor. The Reapers methodically wiped out the Protheans but long after the destruction of the Citadel, it took centuries before the end-result was absolute and in order to defeat the Protheans at last, the Reapers incorporated dark agents in the their ranks just to lure them out.