319 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

iakus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Absolutely.

The ending should not be filled with rainbows and butterflies. If Bioware were to alter or add to the existing endings in DLC, all of the endings should remain bittersweet. The most positive ending as far as the fate of the galaxy goes, should involve some sacrifice on the part of Shepard and his team.

The only way a "rainbows and butterflies" ending could be would be of Shepard could hop into a DeLorean and stop the Reaper invasion from ever happening to begin with.

indeed.    it stopped being about rainbows and butterflies when we first encountered the destruction of eden prime colony.

would I be ok with Shepard dying?  only in some of the endings and only as a direct result of my choices.  manatory Shepard death = no more money for Bioware from me. because that basicaly means they stopped making the games that I can enjoy.  I still don't own LA noir and I don't plan to. if they ever release red dead redemption for PC, I still most likely won't buy it.

I want an option for a hero/heroine to live and try to find at least small measure of happiness.  I'm a sucker for a standard monomyth narative. I have outgrown "tragic hero/Martyr" setup long time ago.

[Lightice_av]

I want an option for a hero/heroine to live and try to find at least small measure of happiness. I'm a sucker for a standard monomyth narative. I have outgrown "tragic hero/Martyr" setup long time ago.

You can't have great victories without great personal sacrifices in a quality narrative. You claim that you are sucker for the monomyth, but then you'd know that this is true in grand majority of the heroic tales. Tragic death or other tragic end is a necessity in stories like this, from Greek mythology to the Lord of the Rings.

[Elorin Silverblade]

If it wasn't the only choice, sure.
But as it is I'm currently trying to block out the current endings.

[jeweledleah]

Lightice_av wrote...

I want an option for a hero/heroine to live and try to find at least small measure of happiness. I'm a sucker for a standard monomyth narative. I have outgrown "tragic hero/Martyr" setup long time ago.

You can't have great victories without great personal sacrifices in a quality narrative. You claim that you are sucker for the monomyth, but then you'd know that this is true in grand majority of the heroic tales. Tragic death or other tragic end is a necessity in stories like this, from Greek mythology to the Lord of the Rings.

Bull.

1.  Shepard already made PLENTY of personal sacrifices.  starting with ME1 and having to leave one of your own behind, working with the enemy in ME2 and allienating him/herself from everything she/he held dear, having to leave earth while it crumbles, losing friends along the way, watching remaining friends deal with their own losses and grief..
2.  in plenty of narratives - the whole point of the monomyth is hero coming home, full circle, bringing a boon, leaving happily ever after, resting on their laurels.  not every story is a tragic story and tragedy DOESN"T make a better story.

lets take Mass Effect 1 again.  for many people here, it had an epic ending.  lets see, what did it entail.  Shepard climbing out of the wrekage, delivery the boon (chosing the human council member)  and then looking ahead heroicaly on a background of arcturus station to epic music.  alive.  victorious.

Lord of the rings.  has both heroes come back and the real hero, Sam?  gets married to his sweetheard.  Aragorn and Arwen reunite and marry.  so does Eowyn and Faramir.  and Frodo?  he may be going off with elves.. but he's going off with elves.  Frodo never had a sweetheart to come home to, so he's going off into the new unknown instead.

Mass Effect was always a heroic uplifting tale.  untill the ending that is where rocks fall and everyone dies.  it was always about choices, consequences and ability to fight agaisnt the so-called inevitability.. and WIN.

[Lightice_av]

1. Shepard already made PLENTY of personal sacrifices. starting with ME1 and having to leave one of your own behind, working with the enemy in ME2 and allienating him/herself from everything she/he held dear, having to leave earth while it crumbles, losing friends along the way, watching remaining friends deal with their own losses and grief..

These are not personal sacrifices unless they impact the player, not just Shepard. In ME1 people invariably did away with the squadmate they liked the least. In ME2 plenty cheered at the possibility of joining Cerberus, you didn't have to sacrifice anybody if you didn't want to, and you would come home victorious. No sacrifices there. The epic trilogy of defeating cosmic evil that has been destroying civilizations for millions of years can't be made poignant without massive player punch that makes you both sad and angry at the end; Bioware got a bit different type of anger than they were expecting to be sure, but their goal was right.

Mass Effect does not end with "rock falls, everybody dies" unless you get the bad ending where the Crucible destroys all life. It has an esoteric happy ending where evil is destroyed or made impotent with great sacrifice that leads to future that is finally free of the covert stagnating influence of the Mass Relays, uncertain but full of possibilities, potentially leaning towards a transhumanist future.

Lord of the rings. has both heroes come back and the real hero, Sam? gets married to his sweetheard. Aragorn and Arwen reunite and marry. so does Eowyn and Faramir. and Frodo? he may be going off with elves.. but he's going off with elves. Frodo never had a sweetheart to come home to, so he's going off into the new unknown instead.

In the Lord of the Rings magic finally fades away from the world with the Great Rings, the elves wane and slowly leave the world, Frodo must face symbolic death and leave the borders of the known world to attain peace, and the age of myths ends in favour of history. Some people get personal happy endings, like Sam and Aragorn, but if you compare them to Mass Effect, they have clear equivalents in Shepard's companions who reach an Earthly paradise for their troubles. Not everybody dies, unlike you seem to think.

[Ieldra]

Lightice_av wrote...
but if you compare them to Mass Effect, they have clear equivalents in Shepard's companions who reach an Earthly paradise for their troubles. Not everybody dies, unlike you seem to think.

Bah. That's not hopeful, that's hopeless romanticism in the worst possible sense, to say nothing of the unfortunate implications. If they were on Earth and starting to rebuild their civlization, THAT would be hopeful. But noooo....they didn't want to create endings that were actually different, they were set on triggering the dark age where everyone and everything may not be dead but certainly most thoroughly screwed. That's not my story. It doesn't happen.

[Newnation]

The only way I would be okay with Shepard dying at the end is if it was handled like Origins in which you can choose to make the ultimate sacrifice or ME 2 in which you don't take the time to prepare and make sure everyone on you team has their head on straight then you're not making it out. It should be the player's choice not being railroad into it.

[Favourite store on the CitadeI]

If it's forced death, I'll be pissed off, if it's optional, then yes

[Lightice_av]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Bah. That's not hopeful, that's hopeless romanticism in the worst possible sense, to say nothing of the unfortunate implications. If they were on Earth and starting to rebuild their civlization, THAT would be hopeful. But noooo....they didn't want to create endings that were actually different, they were set on triggering the dark age where everyone and everything may not be dead but certainly most thoroughly screwed. That's not my story. It doesn't happen.

Set a dark age how? The galactic dark age just ended with all the endings of ME3. The stagnating influence of the Mass Relays is gone, and cultures can finally advance, when they previously were living in ignorance and stasis for millennia. They can become masters of the cosmos under their own power and be free of the Reaper influence for good -- if they choose.

[Tirigon]

Lightice_av wrote...

I want an option for a hero/heroine to live and try to find at least small measure of happiness. I'm a sucker for a standard monomyth narative. I have outgrown "tragic hero/Martyr" setup long time ago.

You can't have great victories without great personal sacrifices in a quality narrative. You claim that you are sucker for the monomyth, but then you'd know that this is true in grand majority of the heroic tales. Tragic death or other tragic end is a necessity in stories like this, from Greek mythology to the Lord of the Rings.

But ACTUALLY, Lord of the Rings has the Mother of all happy ends. Lets sum up:

Aragorn and Arwen marry, becoming the greatest rulers the world has ever seen and introducing an age of happiness and peace for the entire world.

Eowyn finds peace and happiness in marrying Faramir.

Gondor and Rohan renew their alliance and rule the world.

Even elves and dwarfes improve their relationship thanks to Legolas and Gimli.

Merry and Pippin become heroes amongst the hobbits as they free the Shire, and live a long and happy life.

Sam becomes the best Mayor the Shire has ever had, marries Rosie and has countless kids.

Frodo and Bilbo are rewarded for their burden of bearing the Ring - they are allowed to go to Valinor with the elves, thus receiving eternal life in paradise.

The elves can finally go back to Valinor and leave Middle Earth.

Even Gollum, who unarguably has the worst ending, dies in peace and is reliefed of his past crimes and suffering.

Of course there are losses, like Boromir, but all in all it is a happy end if I ever saw one.

[Blackmind1]

Yeah, he needs to die or they need to find a new use for him. If they don't find a good enough use for him, then he needs to be gotten rid of. I want to finally play a new character, build a new story.

I liked the whole Mass Shift idea, where you play a protagonist and an antagonist at the same time.

Modifié par Blackmind1, 25 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[Lightice_av]

Frodo and Bilbo are rewarded for their burden of bearing the Ring - they are allowed to go to Valinor with the elves, thus receiving eternal life in paradise.

FAIL. The Undying Lands don't grant eternal life. They make mortals die quickly as mayflies with their divine light, as the Silmarillion explains thoroughly. Frodo and Bilbo died a few years after the ending of the book, in peace with themselves, free of the burden of the Ring.

The Lord of the Rings has a bittersweet ending where magic and mythology die to make way for history, but ordinary, down to earth people prosper. It's remarkably similar to the ending of Mass Effect, though it would have paid to show us the reconstruction in some way to avoid the stupid theories that currently fly around about everybody being doomed.

[Tirigon]

Lightice_av wrote...

Frodo and Bilbo are rewarded for their burden of bearing the Ring - they are allowed to go to Valinor with the elves, thus receiving eternal life in paradise.

FAIL. The Undying Lands don't grant eternal life. They make mortals die quickly as mayflies with their divine light, as the Silmarillion explains thoroughly. Frodo and Bilbo died a few years after the ending of the book, in peace with themselves, free of the burden of the Ring.

Eh, no.
I also notice how you base your entire defense on one point out of many which already proves me right.

The Lord of the Rings has a bittersweet ending where magic and mythology die to make way for history, but ordinary, down to earth people prosper.

Magic fading away started long ago, however. It has been a trend since the Valar's intervention against Melkor / Morgoth over 6000 years ago. At the time of the War of the Ring elves and dwarves are ALREADY mere myths to most humans, except those few who live in direct neighbourship.

It's remarkably similar to the ending of Mass Effect, though it would have paid to show us the reconstruction in some way to avoid the stupid theories that currently fly around about everybody being doomed.

Without space magic aka Mass Relays travel between systems is not possible in the lore of Mass Effect.

Modifié par Tirigon, 25 mars 2012 - 04:35 .

[jeweledleah]

1. destruction of mass relays = destruction of civilization as we know it. the only ones coming out of this intact, are non space fairing civilizations and maybe occasional agrarian colony with high enough population not to be affected too much by insect. everyone else is screwed, becasue the galaxy relied too much on relays for transportation, supplies, etc. rocks fell, everyone died, or if they are still alive, they will die soon enough, fighting each other for limited resources.

2. I happened to like both Kaidan and Ashley. it was personal and it was rough. so was losing Mordin, Thane, Legion and Anderson. SHEPARD. deserves to have an option of a happy ending. just like Odysseus got his.

3. I'm terrified at how many people think that forceful homogenization through green space magic is a good idea, especially if you talk to Javik, who flat out tells you that they failed BECAUSE they were so homogenized. I'm terrified that people think its ok to make a choice like that for everyone else.

Mass Effect radically changed its theme in a last 10 minutes. it was building up towards triumph in a same way as first 2 games. in ME1, you are stiffed at every point, but you keep chipping away at it, chasing Saren learning more and more about what's going on, and then - major setback. first you are grounded, and then, after you escape anyways, Citadel is taken over, people are dying inside it and outside in space.. and there comes Shepard, against all odds, not only making it possible to kill Sovereign, but surviving agaisnt all odds.

Mass Effect 2. Illusive Man who is supposed to be helping, is instead making your job difficult with his machinations and hidden agendas. but you plod along, trying anyways, and finally, your team seems to be ready... and then your crew gets kidnapped. you are now out of time. and when you making past Omega 4 relay? Normandy is grounded. odds are against you... and yet.. at the last moment (that jump to the Normandy is pretty reminiscent to climbing out of the wreckage at the citadel) - you make it. and then there's that moment of triumph, telling TIM where to shove it and a heroic pose.

Mass Effect 3. situation is dire, but you go off, you plod along, despite resistance every step of the way.. you gather alliances, you learn more about the situation, and finally - your fleet is ready. the finally assault begins and then there's setback. the hammer group running to the teleporter .. is destroyed. but you plod along, you even confront (and possibly outsmart - or just plain shoot) you long time foe TIM (equivalent to getting Saren to suicide, or getting your kidnapped crew out unscathed) it builds it builds to that last moment triumph..... and then we get starchild that gives us 3 equality horrible choices, that all result in destruction of the galaxy and death of the hero. what just happened?

its stylistically wrong, it doesn't fit the build up. in other words, necessity of Shepard dying is tacked on bull for those fans of downer endings or something. no. hero doesn't always die. the whole point of a monomyth is that hero emerges triumphant, comes full circle with that bit of extra, which they can either give up (which is what Frodo does).. or enjoy (Sam). Shepard gets that in game 1 and 2. and i na game 3? that choice is taken away.

[jeweledleah]

Newnation wrote...

The only way I would be okay with Shepard dying at the end is if it was handled like Origins in which you can choose to make the ultimate sacrifice or ME 2 in which you don't take the time to prepare and make sure everyone on you team has their head on straight then you're not making it out. It should be the player's choice not being railroad into it.

also - this

[Lightice_av]

Eh, no.
I also notice how you base your entire defense on one point out of many which already proves me right.

I can dig out the direct quote if you really want. Any LotR fan should know better than to imagine that the Undying Lands give eternal youth, or that they are the afterlife. The Valar can't grant any mortal an eternal life because Eru Ilúvatar has has decreed death a gift of the mortals.

At the time of the War of the Ring elves and dwarves are ALREADY mere myths to most humans, except those few who live in direct neighbourship.

The Great Rings had held back the fading of the magic, and after the destruction of the One Ring their power was gone, sealing the the doom of elves, dwarves and ents for good.

Without space magic aka Mass Relays travel between systems is not possible in the lore of Mass Effect.

One word: Conduits. The Conduit of Ilos had no trouble reaching all the way to the Citadel. It was made by the Protheans. It clearly is possible for organics to build Conduits if they put an effort to it, and those can reach just as far as the full-sized Mass Relays. Implicitly their technology is based on the same principles as the Crucible, so the template is already done. I give a few decades of unified effort to start producing functional Conduits all around the inhabited systems.

[harrier25699]

Nepp wrote...

Only way to accept he'd die, is due to choices you've made throughout the series.

This, making choices and calculating the consequences is the heart and soul of this game.  The unwavering determination from Bioware that he *must* die is a huge change to the mechanic and not a welcome one.   This must have *bittersweet* nonsense has led only to bitter disappointment, at least fo rme.  The cameraderie of the crew was the first casualty of this installment.

[Alex_SM]

It depends on how. The way it is presented in the game? Hell, no! It was like the less emotional hero sacrifice ever.

If Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, make it this way (obvious spoilers from two movies):





If the hero is going to sacrifice himself (or is going to sacrifice anything) it must feel something big. It must be an emotional climax. In a videogame the player must feel he is wining, even in the death of the character.

The ending in of Tuchanka gave me goosebumps, the same for the one in Rannoch (forgot to do one mission, so didn't have the "paragon instawin"). But the ending of the game only made me think "WTF... and that's all? What the hell... This is just wrong!". Didn't make me sad or angry, it's just frustrating. Then I got angry at BW, not at any of the game elements.

Apart from all the other issues (logic, lore, deus ex machina, logical fallacies, changing the motivation of the story at the end, lack of closure and resolution, ignoring player choices, ignoring all the fleet - which was the purpose of the whole damn game, etc...) there is ZERO emotional involvement in the ending. Someone suddenly thought that it was cool for a story that spent 100 hours being all about basic emotions (love, anger, bravery, unity), fast paced action set pieces and optimism (even in the third, the darkest one, you spend the whole game feeling "I'm gonna kick those reapers ass, save everyone and then retire to a beach to live peacefully with Liara/Tali/Ashley, and go party with Garrus) to morph into a cold nihilistic pseudo-intellectual piece of cheap philosophy.  

The game is all about building climax after climax, and at the end it just forgets about the last one.

Hell... even Cornard Verner's "sacrifice" was more emotional! 

Modifié par Alex_SM, 25 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[DarkStar33Cdn]

Technically Sheppard already died, sometimes dead is better.

I do not see a way of how the series ends with anything but her death.

[Tirigon]

Lightice_av wrote...

Eh, no.
I also notice how you base your entire defense on one point out of many which already proves me right.

I can dig out the direct quote if you really want. Any LotR fan should know better than to imagine that the Undying Lands give eternal youth, or that they are the afterlife. The Valar can't grant any mortal an eternal life because Eru Ilúvatar has has decreed death a gift of the mortals.

The way I understand it the exception of mortality was exactly what made the reward for them so special. But I admit, my last reading of LotR and Silmarillion is several years back and time may have muddled my memory.
Even so, however, I wouldnt call it a sad ending; Bilbo has already been the eldest hobbit ever and even Frodo would have been at least 60, if not older, when he dies, and both have led pretty awesome lifes so far. Not a bad way to die, for sure.

The Great Rings had held back the fading of the magic, and after the destruction of the One Ring their power was gone, sealing the the doom of elves, dwarves and ents for good.

Doom? I wouldnt say so. The elves were never meant to remain in Middle-Earth and were finally able to reach their true home, rather than being doomed, and the dwarves are not even a magical race in LotR. May be true about the ents, but even that is not a consequence of Sauron's defeat - they lost the ent-woman centuries ago and their numbers dwindled since then.

One word: Conduits. The Conduit of Ilos had no trouble reaching all the way to the Citadel. It was made by the Protheans. It clearly is possible for organics to build Conduits if they put an effort to it, and those can reach just as far as the full-sized Mass Relays. Implicitly their technology is based on the same principles as the Crucible, so the template is already done. I give a few decades of unified effort to start producing functional Conduits all around the inhabited systems.

The Conduit is basically a small-scale Mass Relay. With the mass Relays being destroyed, so would the conduit.

[funnyskin]

If it was my choice, Mass Effect would not just be a trilogy I would have Shepards story span several more games.

[LegionMan]

You know what might have made for a good "Shepard Dies" ending:
A true "Suicide Mission" in which you face an endless horde of Reaper minions on Earth/Citadel/etc, when you run out of ammo you can spam powers or whatnot until losing all health.  Think the end of Halo: Reach / the Object Rho fight turned up to eleven.

[Little Queen]

Depends pretty much on my FemShep, i would say. And who she has a romance with and all and if Paragon or Renegade etc...

[Troy Sayers]

It`s a RPG. Shepard`s death ore life should be a result of my gaming choice and truth is I`m simply to old for a tragic end as the only ending.