149 réponses à ce sujet

[oganalp]

Hello;



A fan of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 here. I played those games when they were released (Planescape and other RPG games as well, I can go back all the way to text based RPGs, a real computer game maniac here for the last 2 decades)



I am now playing Dragon Age: Origins and looking at my archives and comparing it with other RPG games I have to see the differences and understand why it feels different.



First things I noticed about it and Baldur's Gate II (and other games) is as follows;



- Baldur's Gate II is richer in means of locations and their designs. It has this 2D painted cities, areas that look very good still (since paintings always look as they are) which helps the game to be compareable with today's games. Dragon Age: Origins, and any other 3d RPG game in general with the same idea looks dull when compared to BG II. (No, I am not a - long live the old - maniac)



- Baldur's Gate II was harder. You had to find your way, follow leads. It didn't force you to do anything unless you wanted to do. You could've taken the story quest as soon as possible (which would make the game much harder due to experience points you miss) or you could've wandered after side quests. Side quests were really good and varied. They involved little doings to moving completely new (and unlike many new games, not some -side- feeling locations but full scale locations like Windspear Hills or Trademeet) places with riches. Dragon Age and all other new era games are much more condensed, easy (any old timer RPG fan can beat this game's battles with ease) and more, much more "casual gamer" oriented. I still have hard times in beating Demogorgon or Kangaxx the Demi Lich in Hard modes.



- I remember Baldur's Gate II offering 300 hours of gameplay or so. As someone who finished that game a bazillions of times with mods and add ons and chars and bla bla, I can say that it is true, even if being a bit over stated.

- Dragon Age: Origins have a great introduction to the story, then it gets dull - Normal. Some choices effect some stuff etc, sure, but so far that 18+ sign is purely for some minimal sexual reference and some blood spilled over our characters it seems. I guess the only game that managed to truly earn that 18+ sign is The Witcher with its really mature and gray area decisions.



- Soundtrack is brilliant. Its Inon Zur afterall and he was present at Throne of Bhaal expansion as well. Still, Michael Hoenig's Baldur's Gate I sountrack is the best in means of compositions but Dragon Age: Origins is surely a winner, not a standart. Same for voice acting.



- Characters, at least some, are dull in DA: Origins. Morrigan is appealing in means of attitude in richness but it is not a Zoltan (NWN II) or Minsc. Party interractions are also shallow when compared to BG II. Perhaps I didn't face with anything interesting yet and I missed all the interractions but I remember the duels of your party members, one killing the other, them falling in love and even jealosy spreading in between you and others for another girl etc. Those were deep and it required time to get into. That is why some people simply quit Baldur's Gate due to its complexity. Today's consumption rate requires something to be consumed faster and with a wider range. Especially after being in touch with EA like big fishes, I don't expect Bioware to re-visit such a path. I cannot blame them, its the general market behaviour and any sane marketing expert would suggest the same moves. That is why I loved the Witcher, they picked a mature path instead of being a "game for all" motive and still sold over a million copies. It showed that there are still gamers out there who want hardcore complex (both in means of gameplay as well as story archs and decision making - interraction) games.



- Baldur's Gate had some really good items. I am yet to see such appealing stuff in DA:O. I found some, which are good, but they are not making me feel the same way I was trying to find the pieces for The Equalizer. Same goes for spells. Baldur's Gate II had around 250 or so spells if I remember correctly, some being similar, some being completely genuine. It gave you options, strategies to think etc.

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying Dragon Age: Origins so far and it is really a good game. However, it is not a masterpiece. Problem with Baldur's Gate (all releases except that console weirdo) is that it was a masterpiece and it will be used to compare with other games similar to the genre, especially of those releases from Bioware until a new masterpiece arrives.



It is like the Starcraft of RPGs. Starcraft is / was a masterpiece and after a decade of its release, its still counted as one. People are only expecting Starcraft II to beat its elder for that title. Same goes for Baldur's Gate.



However, Dragon Age Origins is definetly a positive step from Bioware after Baldur's Gate. When compared to Kotor, Jade Empire and Mass Effect, its RPG value is higher. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed all those titles and playing to beat the ME for the 4th time before the sequel arrives. Still, Dragon Age: Origins is probably the best RPG Bioware ever released after BG.





On a completely different note: For those who are willing to learn about Deus Ex. Play the first game. It will look ANCIENT in graphics to you, but if you are a RPG gamer, soon you will forget the graphics. The moments like when you were first in Paul's apartment and when that door knocks are priceless.

[MerinTB]

oganalp wrote...

On a completely different note: For those who are willing to learn about Deus Ex. Play the first game. It will look ANCIENT in graphics to you, but if you are a RPG gamer, soon you will forget the graphics. The moments like when you were first in Paul's apartment and when that door knocks are priceless.

Don't get me wrong, people -

I want to like Deus Ex and Planescape.  I desparetely want to like Planescape!

I've just been unable to get into them - again, it was Deus Ex 2 so yes I need to give the original at least a shot.

I still ocassionally break out an SSI game, so graphics are seriously not an issue with me.

[Starwatcher16]

Coming from the perspective of someone who mainly plays these kind of games for the tactical combat, then...



A) DA is somewhat better then BG2 vanilla.



BG2 moded is far superior to DA.



Given time, will DA moded surpass BG2 moded? To soon to tell.

[attackfighter]

What mods were there for Baldurs Gate? I've seen a few minor ones for items and one that cuts out Irenicus's first dungeon, but I've never seen any that I'd bother downloading...



Also to the poster above me: if you play these games for the tactical combat, what the hell do you see in Dragon Age? It's imbalanced, the isometric view is very limited (often times you can't move it enough to view the entire battlefield), there's little tactical positioning, the AI is horrible and you have less characters to manage. Personally I like everything but the combat, as it's pretty much comes down to AOE stunning, AOE damaging, AOE heals, etc.

[Starwatcher16]

attackfighter wrote...

What mods were there for Baldurs Gate? I've seen a few minor ones for items and one that cuts out Irenicus's first dungeon, but I've never seen any that I'd bother downloading...

Also to the poster above me: if you play these games for the tactical combat, what the hell do you see in Dragon Age? It's imbalanced, the isometric view is very limited (often times you can't move it enough to view the entire battlefield), there's little tactical positioning, the AI is horrible and you have less characters to manage. Personally I like everything but the combat, as it's pretty much comes down to AOE stunning, AOE damaging, AOE heals, etc.

I haven't played much of DA yet, but did play about three dozen or so of the larger battles on a friends computer. I agree with you that the combat as of now needs alot of work, but it is still better then the mess that was BG2 unmoded, everything could be auto-attacked to death by 6 warriors with pots. Still, I think the system has potential. I never plays these games right at release date...

As for mods for BG2...

Sword Coast Strategems 2 fixed tons of scripting issues. Enemy mages are far more effective with it in just about every way, rogues will actually utilize stealth/Backstab and go for (unbuffed) clothies, clerics would now summon intelligently and cast heal now and again, etc. It also granted kits to alot of pre-existing enemies (Like alot of those thiefs are now assasins, many of the random archer guys...are now actually archers),

G3 Tweak pack made some interesting changes. For one it would give pots to enemies (Stronger the enemies, better the selection given). Letting the meat shield warriors have 5 health pots or giving the rogues three invisibility pots makes a signifigant difference. It also added alot of DnD paper abilities to enemies that was not originally part of the game...For instance Githanki gained a ranged 3 sec stun and a smite like pushback. The other major difference is it would let enemies instant cast long term buffs at the beggining of battle, no more one shotting helpless mages with a stealthed rogue.

Improved enemies did some scripting as well, but the major change was just giving enemies bonus health. Most fights in vannilla BG2 were just to short to really let there be more complex tactics then "spam more fireball".

Between Ascension andTactics, just about every Boss fight was redone to be signifigantly harder.

Spell revisions remade much of Mages spellbook, nerfing some op combos (Maelson+glitterdust+slow anyone?), while adding scaling components to alot of lower level spells, which results in far more options. It redid Druids and Cleric spellbooks to greater diffrentiate those claases.

Then there were content mods like Unfinished Business, Quest pack, Souls over Soulbar,etc, that just added more stuff to do.

[Kaosgirl]

oganalp wrote...
 I still have hard times in beating Demogorgon or Kangaxx the Demi Lich in Hard modes.

Kangaxx is a binary fight.  If you know the trick, he can't win.  If you don't know the trick, it's almost impossible for you to win.

[Evindale]

I wish this game was pretty much how it is.... yay wish granted. THough I would like pink hair for my elf, it wouldn't look out of place at all

[ZDPhoenix]

Dam Wookie wrote...

Then I would feel mildly surprised and pleased with this above average game. Hence the 9/10 rating given to all above average games. Instead I'm left disapointed that it is just yet another above average game and not a genuine classic. The Phantom Menace of gaming.

On another note I know this game has an 18 rating but I couldn't help but feel that it has been designed and advertised for a target audience of 14-17 year old white males. The posts on this forum certainly cement that view.

I thought about buying the extra content and replaying. Then I found myself wondering where my Deus Ex, BG, Planescape Torment and Fallout disks are instead.

If this isn't Trolling, I'll eat my hat.

[oganalp]

Kaosgirl -> Yes, his tactic was Imprisonment. Any counter tactic works for it but you figure that later on, unlike the battles of more recent games where you eventually succeed.



Also, I remember with old games that when you lost a party member, you had to revive him or find a temple or something. Now they simply "come back to life" after each combat. Renders the game too much towards a casual tone. I am of those who believe RPG games should be a bit more "non-casual". Problem with Dragon Age is that the hardest challenge it offers (so far at least) is the waiting time when it loads at certain places (cannot tell where exactly due to spoiler stuff but I have a high end rig so its not the comp.).



About Baldur's Gate II, I have over 60 mods installed on it. Some are quest modes, some add new NPC and locations, some tweak the combat and spell system, some make certain dudes and gals harder to kill.

[Elanareon]

You know what's good about BG and BG2? When you get out from the indtroductory dungeons/missions and you go to the main plot, you almost don't know what to do next! Like in BG2 when you get out from Irenicus' dungeon Imoen was kidnapped! Your goal is to find her that's it, you are in a big city with nothing but a mission! Find your own way of doing it! I was like wow back then really immersive. In BG its basically more kinda linear but its the same. Find who killed Gorion and who wants you dead? When you reach Jaheira she only tells you she want to do about the iron crisis down south. You will never know that your killer and that iron crisis is connected till half of the game. You never knew how to find him or will you ever find him.



I liked that about the Baldur's gate series. Not to mention the long dungeons and long different side quests, where they seem to be main plot to themselves as well.

[Alneverus]

The biggest reason the game is compared to the Baldur's Gate series is because part of the marketing was that the game was a 'spiritual successor'. The second game given that term. At the end of the day that proved to be what many people that have played the Baldur's Gate series put it up against. So the original issue started when the marketing tried to put the two up against one another. Honestly those are some big shoes to fill.

Thus a lot of story elements and several other aspects of that game are expected to be to a certain higher end level, and when it didn't exactly deliver (much like the previous 'successor) many people that have played and still play the series aren't pleased with the comparison. In the end a decent amount of people that make these statements picked up the game because of this. All because marketing played that card in order to boost sales.

That is why you end up with people placing the comparison between the two and highlighting many reasons why it isn't a true spiritual successor.

Modifié par Alneverus, 02 décembre 2009 - 12:08 .

[Legion-001]

Alneverus wrote...

The biggest reason the game is compared to the Baldur's Gate series is because part of the marketing was that the game was a 'spiritual successor'. The second game given that term. At the end of the day that proved to be what many people that have played the Baldur's Gate series put it up against. So the original issue started when the marketing tried to put the two up against one another. Honestly those are some big shoes to fill.

Thus a lot of story elements and several other aspects of that game are expected to be to a certain higher end level, and when it didn't exactly deliver (much like the previous 'successor) many people that have played and still play the series aren't pleased with the comparison. In the end a decent amount of people that make these statements picked up the game because of this. All because marketing played that card in order to boost sales.

That is why you end up with people placing the comparison between the two and highlighting many reasons why it isn't a true spiritual successor.

Hmm, just out of curiosity has there ever been a 'spiritual' successor that's lived up to and/or surpassed the original?... I can't think of a single one.

[CarlSpackler]

Legion-001 wrote...

Alneverus wrote...

The biggest reason the game is compared to the Baldur's Gate series is because part of the marketing was that the game was a 'spiritual successor'. The second game given that term. At the end of the day that proved to be what many people that have played the Baldur's Gate series put it up against. So the original issue started when the marketing tried to put the two up against one another. Honestly those are some big shoes to fill.

Thus a lot of story elements and several other aspects of that game are expected to be to a certain higher end level, and when it didn't exactly deliver (much like the previous 'successor) many people that have played and still play the series aren't pleased with the comparison. In the end a decent amount of people that make these statements picked up the game because of this. All because marketing played that card in order to boost sales.

That is why you end up with people placing the comparison between the two and highlighting many reasons why it isn't a true spiritual successor.

Hmm, just out of curiosity has there ever been a 'spiritual' successor that's lived up to and/or surpassed the original?... I can't think of a single one.

Again, just depends on the player.  I appreciate that for a lot of folks on these forums the BG series may well have been the apex of rpg development.  As I stated above though that would not be the case for me, so as a spiritual successor DA transcended BG for my personal enjoyment.  I may be in the minority, but that has been my honest reaction to DAO.

[SheffSteel]

Bioshock managed to surpass the sales of System Shock 2, if not the quality (a more subjective decision).

[Dark83]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Volourn wrote...

DA > BG2

I'd say DAO = BG2.

DAO < BG, though

But BG2 > BG1!

I disagree entirely, in almost every respect.

Seriously? When I first got BG, I thought of it as a D&D combat simulator. BG2 always seemed more polished. Better character interactions, a larger scale.

Alneverus wrote...

The biggest reason the game is
compared to the Baldur's Gate series is because part of the marketing
was that the game was a 'spiritual successor'. The second game given
that term.

What was the first?

SheffSteel wrote...

Bioshock managed to surpass the sales of System Shock 2, if not the quality (a more subjective decision).

BAH, sales are irrelevant. Bioshock is pretty much entirely disassociated from the System Shock series. It would be a better game if it didn't claim to be related, since it would stand on its own merits.

[ModForFun]

You cannot compare DA to Baldurs Gate yeah bioware set the standards high with its creation but trying to force a game to meet or excede that bar will only lead you to dissapointment.

Baldurs Gate was more like an experience, I remember that I played it untill my disks wore out and then I bought the game a second time and did it all again. Sadly no matter how hard I tried I could not recreate that first time magic and neither can Bioware. The story has been told and its time to move on, I do hope that Bioware considers releasing and anniversary edition though, possibly with a bit of bonus content.

[ChronosSF]

oganalp wrote..
Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying Dragon Age: Origins so far and it is really a good game. However, it is not a masterpiece. Problem with Baldur's Gate (all releases except that console weirdo) is that it was a masterpiece and it will be used to compare with other games similar to the genre, especially of those releases from Bioware until a new masterpiece arrives.

However, Dragon Age Origins is definetly a positive step from Bioware after Baldur's Gate. When compared to Kotor, Jade Empire and Mass Effect, its RPG value is higher. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed all those titles and playing to beat the ME for the 4th time before the sequel arrives. Still, Dragon Age: Origins is probably the best RPG Bioware ever released after BG.

Very true. The market today would not let a game like Baldur's Gate 2 come out. BioWare knows that and give us a great game, maybe not as good as their widely acknowledged masterpiece but still good enough to be a step in the right direction. And imagine if Dragon Age 2 makes the same progres Baldur's Gate 2 made in comparison to Baldur's Gate 1. Makes you daydream

[CarlSpackler]

ChronosSF wrote...

oganalp wrote..
Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying Dragon Age: Origins so far and it is really a good game. However, it is not a masterpiece. Problem with Baldur's Gate (all releases except that console weirdo) is that it was a masterpiece and it will be used to compare with other games similar to the genre, especially of those releases from Bioware until a new masterpiece arrives.

However, Dragon Age Origins is definetly a positive step from Bioware after Baldur's Gate. When compared to Kotor, Jade Empire and Mass Effect, its RPG value is higher. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed all those titles and playing to beat the ME for the 4th time before the sequel arrives. Still, Dragon Age: Origins is probably the best RPG Bioware ever released after BG.

Very true. The market today would not let a game like Baldur's Gate 2 come out. BioWare knows that and give us a great game, maybe not as good as their widely acknowledged masterpiece but still good enough to be a step in the right direction. And imagine if Dragon Age 2 makes the same progres Baldur's Gate 2 made in comparison to Baldur's Gate 1. Makes you daydream

A possible sequel to DAO has me very excited.  Video games are the only medium where sequels routinely seem to surpass the original.  Which does make sense, as the developers are able to refine the engine and proccess of the first game to make a tighter, more focused second game.  At risk of sounding like a broken record, I seriously aplaud Bioware for DAO, great game.  That is why the concept of a superior sequel is enticing.  Also why I am looking forward to ME2.  I liked ME but didn't love it.  Still given the trend in game development I am excited to play its sequel confident in Bioware's ability to build on what they have begun.  Consider that enthusiasm squashed compared to the enthusiasm I would have for DA2.  Here's to hoping.

[blondesolid]

Legion-001 wrote...

Alneverus wrote...

The biggest reason the game is compared to the Baldur's Gate series is because part of the marketing was that the game was a 'spiritual successor'. The second game given that term. At the end of the day that proved to be what many people that have played the Baldur's Gate series put it up against. So the original issue started when the marketing tried to put the two up against one another. Honestly those are some big shoes to fill.

Thus a lot of story elements and several other aspects of that game are expected to be to a certain higher end level, and when it didn't exactly deliver (much like the previous 'successor) many people that have played and still play the series aren't pleased with the comparison. In the end a decent amount of people that make these statements picked up the game because of this. All because marketing played that card in order to boost sales.

That is why you end up with people placing the comparison between the two and highlighting many reasons why it isn't a true spiritual successor.

Hmm, just out of curiosity has there ever been a 'spiritual' successor that's lived up to and/or surpassed the original?... I can't think of a single one.

Empire Strikes Back

[Bibdy]

MerinTB wrote...



Don't get me wrong, people -

I want to like Deus Ex and Planescape.  I desparetely want to like Planescape!

I've just been unable to get into them - again, it was Deus Ex 2 so yes I need to give the original at least a shot.

I still ocassionally break out an SSI game, so graphics are seriously not an issue with me.

Oh god, Deus Ex 2 was awful. A ****ing travesty. Let us never speak of it again.

[Bibdy]

[quote]blondesolid wrote...



Hmm, just out of curiosity has there ever been a 'spiritual' successor that's lived up to and/or surpassed the original?... I can't think of a single one.
[/quote]
Empire Strikes Back

[/quote]

That's a literal sequel, not a spiritual successor. Very different concepts. What has Lucas released since Star Wars, on the same vein of space-faring action adventure, but not Star Wars, that compares to Star Wars?

[Dark83]

Bibdy wrote...

Oh god, Deus Ex 2 was awful. A ****ing travesty. Let us never speak of it again.

There is no Deux Ex 2.

[Alneverus]

Dark83 wrote...

Alneverus wrote...

The biggest reason the game is
compared to the Baldur's Gate series is because part of the marketing
was that the game was a 'spiritual successor'. The second game given
that term.

What was the first?

As I recall Obsidian gave their NWN2 game that same description.

Legion-001 wrote...

Alneverus wrote...

The
biggest reason the game is compared to the Baldur's Gate series is
because part of the marketing was that the game was a 'spiritual
successor'. The second game given that term. At the end of the day that
proved to be what many people that have played the Baldur's Gate series
put it up against. So the original issue started when the marketing
tried to put the two up against one another. Honestly those are some
big shoes to fill.

Thus a lot of story elements and several
other aspects of that game are expected to be to a certain higher end
level, and when it didn't exactly deliver (much like the previous
'successor) many people that have played and still play the series
aren't pleased with the comparison. In the end a decent amount of
people that make these statements picked up the game because of this.
All because marketing played that card in order to boost sales.

That
is why you end up with people placing the comparison between the two
and highlighting many reasons why it isn't a true spiritual successor.

Hmm,
just out of curiosity has there ever been a 'spiritual' successor
that's lived up to and/or surpassed the original?... I can't think of a
single one.

Not really.

Modifié par Alneverus, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:16 .

[oganalp]

Well, I recently played Assassin's Creed II and it overwhelms the first game in every sense. It is a success, seeing a company learning from its mistakes and taking a step forward. Baldur's Gate II was the same. Neverwinter Nights II, even though it wasn't mainly the same studio producing it, was also the same in means of "learning from wrongs".



I can only hope the same from Dragon Age: Origins part II.



However, the only sequel in means of RPG that "excited me most" is The Witcher II. Mass Effect II is also a long time "awaited" game but I am not sure if its because it is so good or its because of my freaking love towards any space related game.



However, as I stated before, I would really prefer a harder game without that tutorial feeling of constantly pushing you towards the storyline, feeling as if constantly someone is holding my hand, showing me the way to go. As some posts here stated earlier, it was a true appealing part of Baldur's Gate and II, it is also an obstacle of reaching casual players, I accept.



I just wish to feel that feeling of success and achievement when I find a clue that moves me towards a quest's grand finale. I had that feeling with The Witcher, making you feel lost at times, pushing you enough to search for answers but not boring you to death (like searching for a blue or red key madly back in Doom II days).



These easier games remind me of the era of interractive fiction games like Star Trek Klingon Academy or Phantasmagoria II (which was harder with certain options around) where the story flowed and you blended in as a part time interractor.