49 réponses à ce sujet

[DeffFace]

So I've tried using the Revenant, the Cerberus sniper rifle, the SMGs, and I'm starting to think that weapons with low dam but a high RoF are complete garbage. They don't HURT anything, and on anything above bronze hanging out of cover pumping shots into a target will get you capped.

So: Are these weapons terrible, or am I terrible? If I am, what should I be doing differently? The revenant was so bad I literally couldn't fininsh a match with it.  

[SinerAthin]

Most Automatic Weapons in this game are garbage, including SMGs and most Assault Rifles.

Sure, you can kill stuff with it, but with nowhere near the effifiency you'd have using a heavy pistol/Sniper.


One of the few Automatic weapons that used to work(or were not completely useless) were the Falcon or Revenant on a Turian Soldier, but those were nerfed.

Vindicator was good, but it also took a nerf.


I think Bioware is telling us not to use Assault Rifles.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 23 mars 2012 - 05:51 .

[Tangster]

Vindicator is still pretty decent, Avenger is feasible until gold.

[Syrinxfloofs]

Revenant on a turian soldier is still doable up to silver so far and i dont have a barrel extension for ARs still. however, pretty much all of them are garbage because of how armor affects damage.

[Ashilana]

Oddly, everything said about rapid fire weapons on the forums doesn't seem to match up with what I have observed in game.

For example, yesterday I watched my boyfriend pug a gold with his Turian sentinel. The only weapon he had equipped was his Phaeston. He carried the match with over 100,000 points.

So, how could he do this if rapid fire weapons are useless? Would love some speculation or discussion.

Modifié par Ashilana, 23 mars 2012 - 06:01 .

[SovereignWillReturn]

Revenent on a max stability/Damage Turian Soldier/Sentinel is boss.
Avenger and Mattock X are also beastly.

SMGs are garbage 24/7.

[xtorma]

SinerAthin wrote...

Most Automatic Weapons in this game are garbage, including SMGs and most Assault Rifles.

Sure, you can kill stuff with it, but with nowhere near the effifiency you'd have using a heavy pistol/Sniper.


One of the few Automatic weapons that used to work(or were not completely useless) were the Falcon or Revenant on a Turian Soldier, but those were nerfed.

Vindicator was good, but it also took a nerf.


I think Bioware is telling us not to use Assault Rifles.

Didn't the rev get a buff?

[Foxtrot813]

SinerAthin wrote...

Most Automatic Weapons in this game are garbage, including SMGs and most Assault Rifles.

Sure, you can kill stuff with it, but with nowhere near the effifiency you'd have using a heavy pistol/Sniper.


One of the few Automatic weapons that used to work(or were not completely useless) were the Falcon or Revenant on a Turian Soldier, but those were nerfed.

Vindicator was good, but it also took a nerf.


I think Bioware is telling us not to use Assault Rifles.

I'd have chalked that up to paranoia until the Falcon nerf.

But yeah, automatics, especially ones with high accuracy/ROF but low damage, are terrible in this game.

See Phaeston, Geth Pulse, Collector Rifle (from what I've heard). The only reason the Avanger isn't in the list is simply because it's so light and has fair damage and capacity. It's still *somewhat* useful. If you don't have a Phalanx or Carnifex. <_<

[Autochthon]

Basically yes.

Gold has enemies who have assault rifles that kill you in 2-3 shots. Taking time to fire more than a couple bullets is a death sentence.

[ttchip]

Ashilana wrote...
For example, yesterday I watched my boyfriend pug a gold with his Turian sentinel. The only weapon he had equipped was his Phaeston. He carried the match with over 100,000 points.

So, how could he do this if rapid fire weapons are useless? Would love some speculation or discussion.

It could be, you know, the rest of the team being terrible...

Edit: Yes, there is no automatic weapon I would describe as 'good'. Some of them are decent (Mattock, Vindicator, Avenger, Revenant) because of various reasons.

Modifié par ttchip, 23 mars 2012 - 06:08 .

[Ashilana]

ttchip wrote...

Ashilana wrote...
For example, yesterday I watched my boyfriend pug a gold with his Turian sentinel. The only weapon he had equipped was his Phaeston. He carried the match with over 100,000 points.

So, how could he do this if rapid fire weapons are useless? Would love some speculation or discussion.

It could be, you know, the rest of the team being terrible...

Then how could they possibly win at gold?   I don't think that is an adequate argument.

I think people are too partial to one shot kills, especially stasis related easy mode kills.

[stu_]

Ashilana wrote...

ttchip wrote...

Ashilana wrote...
For example, yesterday I watched my boyfriend pug a gold with his Turian sentinel. The only weapon he had equipped was his Phaeston. He carried the match with over 100,000 points.

So, how could he do this if rapid fire weapons are useless? Would love some speculation or discussion.

It could be, you know, the rest of the team being terrible...

Then how could they possibly win at gold?   I don't think that is an adequate argument.

I think people are too partial to one shot kills, especially stasis related easy mode kills.

^^ this

I use Phaeston V with Extended Barrel III and Piercing V on my Turian Sentinel and Soldier.

If not top of the board i am usually snapping at the heels of whoever is.

[ttchip]

Ashilana wrote...
Then how could they possibly win at gold?   I don't think that is an adequate argument.

I think people are too partial to one shot kills, especially stasis related easy mode kills.

OHK effectively reduce the amount of damage the enemy does by simply killing off enemies one at a time. OHK weapons are only marginally less effective than automatic weapons in terms of sustained dps AND they don't require you to be exposed for prolonged amounts of time.

The thing is: high RoF/low power weapons are highly ineffective against anything with armor due to the flat decrease in damage armor offers. That decreases their (usually higher) sustained dps, making them subpar to high power/low RoF weapons when dealing with anything with armor. high RoF/low power weapons do not offer any benefit against shields/barriers the way they did in ME2.

Modifié par ttchip, 23 mars 2012 - 06:15 .

[Ashilana]

stu_ wrote...

I use Phaeston V with Extended Barrel III and Piercing V on my Turian Sentinel and Soldier.

If not top of the board i am usually snapping at the heels of whoever is.

It is odd how forums are all about trends... often trends that are a bit out of touch with reality.

I think a lot of people don't know how piercing mods and ammo work.  They remove part of the damage penalty that armor puts on weapon damage.  If someone warps a target, thus weakening the armor even more, the armor penalty becomes negligible.

[Ashilana]

ttchip wrote...
. high RoF/low power weapons do not offer any benefit against shields/barriers the way they did in ME2.

Incorrect.  The sustained dps of rapid fire weapons can be higher in situations that all shots hit the target and armor is not an issue. 

Another benefit of rapid fire weapons is that you can apply ammo effects to entire crowds by spraying into the crowd.

[BellaStrega]

Ashilana wrote...

stu_ wrote...

I use Phaeston V with Extended Barrel III and Piercing V on my Turian Sentinel and Soldier.

If not top of the board i am usually snapping at the heels of whoever is.

It is odd how forums are all about trends... often trends that are a bit out of touch with reality.

I think a lot of people don't know how piercing mods and ammo work.  They remove part of the damage penalty that armor puts on weapon damage.  If someone warps a target, thus weakening the armor even more, the armor penalty becomes negligible.

I have yet to see a single piercing mod for any weapon.

[MartialArtsSurfer]

http://social.biowar...2648/1#10321708 --official dev post by Eric Fagnan on how armor/weapons work & why low-damage per bullet weapons like SMGs & AR's suck

unlike ME2, weapons have no damage bonus vs. shields nor armor

instead,
armor subtracts a flat amount FROM EACH bullet (ie, a mob has 20 pts of
armor means 20 pts of damage is subtracted from each bullet, with a
mininum of 1 pt of damage being done).

Thus, a Geth Pulse Rifle
or SMG that does only 20-30 pts of damge per bullet will do only 1 to 10 points of
damage per bullet on a mob with the typical 20 pts of armor.

Whereas most pistols will do 100-400+ damage per bullet & most snipers do 100-1,000+ per bullet so that -20 pts of armor will not be significant reduction, hence why most snipers & pistols dominate at higher levels vs. armored targets (banshees, brutes, pyros, primes, atlas)

Based
real life science/physics, AR's should do at least twice the damage of
pistols due to their longer barrel & higher caliber (9 mm pistol
rounds) whereas higher caliber (7.62 mm or .45 caliber) should do more.

the most powerful round is the .50 caliber used in sniper rifles
next is the 7.62 mm AR
then 5.5 & 5.56 mm AR

strongest pistol rounds are .50 & .44 & .45 caliber used in Eagles & Magnums
most SMG & pistol rounds use only 9 mm though

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 23 mars 2012 - 06:38 .

[Drummernate]

Under most circumstances it is the shooter, not the gun.

I use the Geth Pulse Rifle all the time, and the N7 Hurricane. Every match I end up about 15-20k ahead of the 2nd place player.

It all depends on if you can get reliable headshots with the gun. Revenant is garbage though, even at level 6.

[ttchip]

Ashilana wrote...
Incorrect.  The sustained dps of rapid fire weapons can be higher in situations that all shots hit the target and armor is not an issue. 

Another benefit of rapid fire weapons is that you can apply ammo effects to entire crowds by spraying into the crowd.

Nope. Not at all. Lets compare the Phaeston, a weapon you used as an example (I'm ignoring the GPR, which is the prime example for why rapid fire weapons are meh) to the Carnifex, a weapon many of us deem highly effective at all difficulties.

The Phaeston fires at 600rpm and deals 35ish damage per shot (no mods, rank I). That gives it 350 burst-dps/314 sustained dps.

The Carnifex fires at 100rpm and deals 276 damage per shot (same conditions: no mods, rank I), giving it 460 burst-dps/324 sustained dps.

Both weapons offer penetration and damage mods. The Carnifex performs better overall and performs better at dealing with armor. It's undeniable that the Phaeston offers benefits (i.e. applying ammo powers). Other than that I don't see why people would use the Phaeston over the Carnifex.

Modifié par ttchip, 23 mars 2012 - 06:43 .

[johhnytrash]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Revenent on a max stability/Damage Turian Soldier/Sentinel is boss.
Avenger and Mattock X are also beastly.

SMGs are garbage 24/7.

I do real well with the Locust on a human engineer. They are not all garbage.

[Foxtrot813]

johhnytrash wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Revenent on a max stability/Damage Turian Soldier/Sentinel is boss.
Avenger and Mattock X are also beastly.

SMGs are garbage 24/7.

I do real well with the Locust on a human engineer. They are not all garbage.

You could be doing even better, is the concensus. It's not that you can't do well with SMGs or ARs, it's that you'll never do as well as you would if you had just brought a pistol.

[Warchild-RZ]

ttchip wrote...

Ashilana wrote...
Incorrect.  The sustained dps of rapid fire weapons can be higher in situations that all shots hit the target and armor is not an issue. 

Another benefit of rapid fire weapons is that you can apply ammo effects to entire crowds by spraying into the crowd.

Nope. Not at all. Lets compare the Phaeston, a weapon you used as an example (I'm ignoring the GPR, which is the prime example for why rapid fire weapons are meh) to the Carnifex, a weapon many of us deem highly effective at all difficulties.

The Phaeston fires at 600rpm and deals 35ish damage per shot (no mods, rank I). That gives it 350 burst-dps/314 sustained dps.

The Carnifex fires at 100rpm and deals 276 damage per shot (same conditions: no mods, rank I), giving it 460 burst-dps/324 sustained dps.

Both weapons offer penetration and damage mods. The Carnifex performs better overall and performs better at dealing with armor. It's undeniable that the Phaeston offers benefits (i.e. applying ammo powers). Other than that I don't see why people would use the Phaeston over the Carnifex.

  Where are you getting this info?

[Peer of the Empire]

Yes.  Two reasons immediately come to mind:

[1] Biotics buffed this time around.  Any class can use any weapons; if biotics rolled with super automatic weapons they'd be even more OP

[2] Bioware is attempting to reward skill through headshots rather than spraying and praying

[Rifneno]

Ashilana wrote...

Oddly, everything said about rapid fire weapons on the forums doesn't seem to match up with what I have observed in game.

For example, yesterday I watched my boyfriend pug a gold with his Turian sentinel. The only weapon he had equipped was his Phaeston. He carried the match with over 100,000 points.

So, how could he do this if rapid fire weapons are useless? Would love some speculation or discussion.

"Not as good as the alternatives" =/= "not at all viable regardless of skill level."  The fact you refered to the alternatives as "easymode" should've told you something.

[ttchip]

Warchild-RZ wrote...
Where are you getting this info?

Information about weaponry: Link (note: Balance patches are not in this spreadsheet. I considered the damage buff the Phaeston got in my calculation.)

Modifié par ttchip, 23 mars 2012 - 07:00 .