49 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazandus]

Ashilana wrote...

Oddly, everything said about rapid fire weapons on the forums doesn't seem to match up with what I have observed in game.

For example, yesterday I watched my boyfriend pug a gold with his Turian sentinel. The only weapon he had equipped was his Phaeston. He carried the match with over 100,000 points.

So, how could he do this if rapid fire weapons are useless? Would love some speculation or discussion.

Techbursts.

Also, keep in mind, people have spent thousands and thousands of credits and not unlocked certain weapon mods/weapon upgrades. It may very well be the case that a rank X Phaeston with Armor Pen maxed and an extended barrel on a Turian with racial stability passives is a feasible weapon. Or, more likely, its just techbursts and you fell asleep watching him play.

[ttchip]

My numbers were off @ sustained dps of Phaeston. It takes 5 seconds to empty a clip. Reload takes 1.37 seconds. Sustained dps = 350 * 5/6.37 = 274.7

I didn't even expect it to be that bad...

[MartialArtsSurfer]

Drummernate wrote...

Under most circumstances it is the shooter, not the gun.

I use the Geth Pulse Rifle all the time, and the N7 Hurricane. Every match I end up about 15-20k ahead of the 2nd place player.

It all depends on if you can get reliable headshots with the gun. Revenant is garbage though, even at level 6.

because you get much more points for priming biotic/tech burts as well as detonating

you get more points for using biotic/tech powers when damaging & killing even when not detonating

you get more points for headshots (regardless of damage done)

you get more points for melee kills/damage also

weapon kills/damage get THE LEAST POINTS

you're also using a caster class

by your own admission, your weapon is just for mop up & it's your powers that do most of the damage so points at end of match mean nothing about weapon effectiveness (especially since you also get extra points for reviving, headshots regardless of damage, etc)

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 23 mars 2012 - 08:02 .

[aimlessgun]

ttchip wrote...

My numbers were off @ sustained dps of Phaeston. It takes 5 seconds to empty a clip. Reload takes 1.37 seconds. Sustained dps = 350 * 5/6.37 = 274.7

I didn't even expect it to be that bad...

Yeah the Avenger and Phaeston have "mother of god" bad DPS. I don't understand why some people think they're ok. Do they play different games?

[Riot Inducer]

ttchip wrote...
high RoF/low power weapons do not offer any benefit against shields/barriers the way they did in ME2.

You should try the Tempest again. SMGs have a noticable bonus against Shields/Barriers.

[SinerAthin]

aimlessgun wrote...

ttchip wrote...

My numbers were off @ sustained dps of Phaeston. It takes 5 seconds to empty a clip. Reload takes 1.37 seconds. Sustained dps = 350 * 5/6.37 = 274.7

I didn't even expect it to be that bad...

Yeah the Avenger and Phaeston have "mother of god" bad DPS. I don't understand why some people think they're ok. Do they play different games?

It's all about being extremely subjective and having limited experience.

They're mostly people who:
A) Haven't specialized in many weapons
Are skilled players who think their weapon is the reason they're topping their teammates(but score can still be very missleading in terms of team efficiency)
C) Pure fanboyism. (I'm a fan of Assault Rifles in general but I'll not deny the fact that they're not optimal on Gold)

[MartialArtsSurfer]

Riot Inducer wrote...

ttchip wrote...
high RoF/low power weapons do not offer any benefit against shields/barriers the way they did in ME2.

You should try the Tempest again. SMGs have a noticable bonus against Shields/Barriers.

Not anymore in ME3... the extra damage to shields in ME2 mechanic was removed... all weapons do same damage to armor/shields.. only difference is armor subtracts a flat amount from each bullet... gameplay mechanics official dev posts here

official:
http://social.biowar...2648/1#10321708

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 23 mars 2012 - 08:00 .

[Burnham1]

The only good thing about the Phaeston is how insanely fast and accurate it can be while using Marksman. It is incredibly easy to get headshots with that gun as the spread with Marksman is very tiny. It is a fun and good weapon to use even on Silver. Gold it is probably bad, like just about every other gun in the game.

It is by no means your best option. But it is good enough that it really won't increase your chances of losing if you use it on a Turian Soldier.

[KiraTsukasa]

SinerAthin wrote...

Most Automatic Weapons in this game are garbage, including SMGs and most Assault Rifles.

Sure, you can kill stuff with it, but with nowhere near the effifiency you'd have using a heavy pistol/Sniper.


One of the few Automatic weapons that used to work(or were not completely useless) were the Falcon or Revenant on a Turian Soldier, but those were nerfed.

Vindicator was good, but it also took a nerf.


I think Bioware is telling us not to use Assault Rifles.

The Revenant wasn't nerfed. It had its damage increased. Twice.

[Elecbender]

I prefer automatics with high damage and high ROF (50+ damage per bullet and 650+ RPM).

Tempest X, Hornet, and Revenant fit the bill. Too bad the tip wasn't kidding when high DPS weapons have high recoil and low accuracy.

[Riot Inducer]

No seriously, go shoot something shielded with a Tempest, then with a slower gun and tell me high RoF doesn't drain shields faster.

I don't play much on Gold at all but even at Silver the tempest can eat shields as fast as a shield ripping power.

[D Amiri]

Will people stop coming into weapon balance threads saying "weapon X is fine, I use it on my Turian Sent/Soldier and do just fine". Thats like the people who say that Phantom don't scare me, I just stasis them. Yes Turian stability/marksmanship make bad weapons ok and Asari faceroll Phantoms. But what about everyone else.

They need to return the Shield/Barrier bonus to AR's and SMG's. That will go along way to restoring balance and give people a reason to carry SMG's (with fixed light weight materials) as a second weapon.

[ttchip]

Riot Inducer wrote...
No seriously, go shoot something shielded with a Tempest, then with a slower gun and tell me high RoF doesn't drain shields faster.

You saw the dev post, didn't you? There is no such mechanic.

D Amiri wrote...
They need to return the Shield/Barrier bonus to AR's and SMG's. That will go along way to restoring balance and give people a reason to carry SMG's (with fixed light weight materials) as a second weapon.

What system are you on? Ultralight Materials work just fine on my Hornet... :-/

Modifié par ttchip, 23 mars 2012 - 08:11 .

[KiraTsukasa]

Riot Inducer wrote...

No seriously, go shoot something shielded with a Tempest, then with a slower gun and tell me high RoF doesn't drain shields faster.

I don't play much on Gold at all but even at Silver the tempest can eat shields as fast as a shield ripping power.

That's only from the rate of fire. You can put more shots down field with a Tempest than you can with a shotgun, in the same amount of time. Do a comparison. One shot from a Tempest and one shot from your favorite shotgun/sniper rifle/pistol/whatever.

The weapon damage bonuses to armor/shields/barriers are gone entirely.

[Xtreme-Tiramisu]

Answer to the title: Yes they're mostly all garbage in Silver+ difficulties. Most high ROF/low damage weapons suffers accuracy/stability issues. Furthermore, you just can't affoard to shoot outside of cover or stand in the open to waste your bullets enough to make a kill. High damage per shot and slower firing weapon are most effective on higher difficulties.

You'll have a lot of blast with high ROF/low damage weapon on bronze but beyond that is just frustration for people.

[squidney2k1]

High ROF guns are mainly hindered by several drawbacks:

1) Most semi-auto guns do more damage.
2) Many full-auto weapons still weigh a ton.
3) SMGs are pea-shooters.
4) Pistols generally do more damage, are lighter, and can be spammed nearly as fast, nullifying many of the advantages of any full-auto weapon.

[Lionheartwolf]

i think one issue comes from the difficulty of exposure on harder lvls. it takes a little longer to get the required number of bullets onto a target from a RoF weapons to match that of a single shot weapon. that might turn a few people off to it since in some cases you have to land 100 bullets to do the same damage as a single bullet landing which is way riskier than popping your head out for one shot.

i also think the balance problems come from the idea that people dont count missed shots from a single fire weapon against them. (or at least it contributes) if you land 90% of your clip onto the intended target with an AR you are going to see a big difference when comparing it to a single shot weapon again. in some cases the difference per clip can be as high as 99% damage with an AR compared to 0% of a single shot sniper rifle that only gets one shot before reload.

so its really a matter of being honest about your particular playstyle and recognizing your accuracy. if you are not very accurate i would say that you are going to do way worse when it comes to DPS with a single shot weapon and thats all that really counts.

Modifié par Lionheartwolf, 23 mars 2012 - 08:16 .

[MartialArtsSurfer]

ttchip wrote...

Riot Inducer wrote...
No seriously, go shoot something shielded with a Tempest, then with a slower gun and tell me high RoF doesn't drain shields faster.

You saw the dev post, didn't you? There is no such mechanic.

D Amiri wrote...
They need to return the Shield/Barrier bonus to AR's and SMG's. That will go along way to restoring balance and give people a reason to carry SMG's (with fixed light weight materials) as a second weapon.

What system are you on? Ultralight Materials work just fine on my Hornet... :-/

ultralight materials is bugged in multiplayer on PC --shows cooldown in weapons screen but no actual time reduction in powers screen nor in gameplay when you're actually using powers

[Kenaras]

ttchip wrote...

What system are you on? Ultralight Materials work just fine on my Hornet... :-/

Are you sure it's working?  How do you know?  I tested Ultralight Materials on my Hornet using a stopwatch, and it most certainly was not working.  (PC version.)

[ttchip]

MartialArtsSurfer wrote...
ultralight materials is bugged in multiplayer on PC --shows cooldown in weapons screen but no actual time reduction in powers screen nor in gameplay when you're actually using powers.

That's... uhh... allright, good to know.

[jsVariable]

Most of them are useable (at least up through silver), but you are almost always better off with one of the pistols or a long rifle.  The problem is that Bioware made some terrible design decisions regarding multiplayer mechanics.

First - not only are the pistols ridiculously accurate / high damage, but due to the fact that most of them are low weight, using one allows you to get a huge bonus to your biotics/techs.  This leads us to the situation where, even if the assault rifles were as good as pistols at dealing damage (they are not), why would you chose one over a pistol, when taking the pistol would also get you the recharge bonus?

Second, on any level past bronze (and even, in some cases, in bronze), all the enemies can drop you VERY fast (on silver/gold, even a lowly Geth trooper can take you from full shields/health to dead in 1 or 2 seconds).  This means that weapons that force you to expose yourself to return fire - like shotguns (you need to move in close) and ARs/SMGs (you have to stand there plugging away for a long time) - are suicide/substandard.

In all honesty, the only way things are going to be fixed is if Bioware rebalances all of multiplayer.  There needs to be bonuses/trade-offs to everything.  You can't have one weapon (pistols) be best at everything.

Pistols should grant a bonus to biotics/techs, but be substandard weapon based damage-wise.  They also need to have their pin point accuracy at range toned down a lot.  A handgun should be an up close weapon.

Assault rifles should be the best weapons as far as dealing non-biotic/tech damage goes.  In turn, if you are going to be the best at weapon based damage, the trade off should be that you techs/biotics should not be as good as someone (a pistol user) that forgoes that weapon damage, in favor of the biotic/tech damage.

Submachineguns should probably be a balance between the pistols and assault rifles.

The long rifles should remain high damage, but probably be a little worse, with regards to biotics/techs, than they are now.

In addition, I think the game would play better if they toned down the amount of damage the enemies did.  The way it is now, on the higher levels, the only real strategy is to stick together in a giant ball, hole up somewhere, and snipe away.  If you try moving around too much, you are going down FAST - this makes the game too one-dimensional.

Modifié par jsVariable, 24 mars 2012 - 09:01 .

[Mazandus]

Lionheartwolf wrote...

i think one issue comes from the difficulty of exposure on harder lvls. it takes a little longer to get the required number of bullets onto a target from a RoF weapons to match that of a single shot weapon. that might turn a few people off to it since in some cases you have to land 100 bullets to do the same damage as a single bullet landing which is way riskier than popping your head out for one shot.

i also think the balance problems come from the idea that people dont count missed shots from a single fire weapon against them. (or at least it contributes) if you land 90% of your clip onto the intended target with an AR you are going to see a big difference when comparing it to a single shot weapon again. in some cases the difference per clip can be as high as 99% damage with an AR compared to 0% of a single shot sniper rifle that only gets one shot before reload.

so its really a matter of being honest about your particular playstyle and recognizing your accuracy. if you are not very accurate i would say that you are going to do way worse when it comes to DPS with a single shot weapon and thats all that really counts.

'

This I do not find to be true. I am hardly the most patient or accurate player, yet my Salarian Inf with a Mantix 3 is vastly more effective than my human or turian soldier with any combo or solo of revenant, mattock, vindicator,  shotgun, or smg I've unlocked yet. It is not about aiming, it is about the terrible weakness of most of the weapons in this game. I concede, that having not unlocked multiple levels of revenant nor AR armor pen that perhaps this changes, but what does that say about the system if it requires a weapon to be levelled up to VII or better to even compete with a rank one sniper or pistol?



No military in the world would bother with SMG's and AR's if they weren't better WEAPONS than bolt action Sniper rifles and pistols. In this GAME, SNIPERs and PISTOLS are BETTER WEAPONS FOR EVERY SCENARIO than SMG'S and AR's. There is no depth or choice there, of any kind. You either chose to wield an inferior weapon and gimp your power cooldowns or you choose to use an excellent weapon while retaining your cooldowns/ or sacrifice some for the sheer power of a widow.

On SILVER, an entire Marksman enabled clip from a Rank 1 Revenant with all maxed out Turian passives will not even scratch a banshee. Yet an Inf with a Sniper can kill it in 2-3 shots. There is something seriously WRONG with that. I'm talking every round from a 90 round magazine. As a hit.

If one family of weapons needs mods and ammo consumables to be effective, then they ALL SHOULD. Its 1 or its zero. Anything else is pure laziness and shortsightedness on the design end.

[Mazandus]

jsVariable wrote...

Most of them are useable (at least up through silver), but you are almost always better off with one of the pistols or a long rifle.  The problem is that Bioware made some terrible design decisions regarding multiplayer mechanics.

First - not only are the pistols ridiculously accurate / high damage, but due to the fact that most of them are low weight, using one allows you to get a huge bonus to your biotics/techs.  This leads us to the situation where, even if the assault rifles were as good as pistols at dealing damage (they are not), why would you chose one over a pistol, when taking the pistol would also get you the recharge bonus?

Second, on any level past bronze (and even, in some cases, in bronze), all the enemies can drop you VERY fast (on silver/gold, even a lowly Geth trooper can take you from full shields/health to dead in 1 or 2 seconds).  This means that weapons that force you to expose yourself to return fire - like shotguns (you need to move in close) and ARs/SMGs (you have to stand there plugging away for a long time) - are suicide/substandard.

In all honesty, the only way things are going to be fixed is if Bioware rebalances all of multiplayer.  There needs to be bonues/trade-offs to everything.  You can't have one weapon (pistols) be best at everything.

Pistols should grant a bonus to biotics/techs, but be substandard weapon based damage-wise.  They also need to have their pin point accuracy at range toned down a lot.  A handgun should be an up close weapon.

Assault rifles should be the best weapons as far as dealing non-biotic/tech damage goes.  In turn, if you are going to be the best at weapon based damage, the trade off should be that you techs/biotics should not be as good as someone (a pistol user) that forgoes that weapon damage, in favor of the biotic/tech damage.

Submachineguns should probably be a balance between the pistols and assault rifles.

The long rifles should remain high damage, but probably be a little worse, with regards to biotics/techs, than they are now.

In addition, I think the game would play better if they toned down the amount of damage the enemies did.  The way it is now, on the higher levels, the only real strategy is to stick together in a giant ball, hole up somewhere, and snipe away.  If you try moving around too much, you are going down FAST - this makes the game too one-dimensional.

I agree with everything you just said. Spot on, sir.

[himegoto]

There are no way if you are using a high ROF weapon focused class like the turian soldier and outscore a caster like the asari adept or a bold action weapon like the salarian inf.
Unless you are the host and everyone is lagging or they are just exceptionally bad.
Most often than not I roll my eyes if one of the ROF weapon heavy classes join my game. I use those classes from time to time too but still the fact is: They suck (in gold)

[Gaidax]

I got Hornet X and it is really insane, easily more damage than Carnifex X, which I also have.

Though, that's about it for automatic weapons... Everything else is just subpar.