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[ValentineHeart82]

On my first playthrough, my first impressions and gut reactions colored some of my perceptions. At the tower of Ostagar I actually thought it seemed pretty likely that Loghein was conspiring with the Darkspawn, I mean seriously as ridiculous as that is.
 
On my second playthrough I realized things were more complicated than they first seemed. For one Loghein's retreat at Ostagar no longer seemed like trechery, it seemed like the most reasonable military decision to make under the circumstances. I notice him implore the King not to fight on the front line and I noticed how the King wasn't willing to wait for reinforcements.

On my third playthrough Loghein made a lot more sense to me. He had battled the Orlesians for years, he saw them commit atrocities against women and children and he saw great brutality in them. He wasn't about to let entire legions of women raping child killers march into his homeland. He didn't believe it was a true blight and he thought his forces would be sufficient to beat it back.

I also noticed that the poisoning of Eamon wasn't clearly Loghein's doing. Jowan said himself that he never met Loghein directly, that means he most likely went through Howe or Anora. Anora would see Eamon as a threat to her place on the throne, and Howe had already proven his treachery.

I also noticed that things were working out very conveniently for Anora until I showed up with Eamon. I already suspected that she lied about her father, and I started to suspect that there was something going on with Howe, that they were co-conspirators. She also betrayed me that time, and accused me of kidnapping her.

Howe was also the one who arranged for my assassination. Loghein showed utter disgust when he found out about it, and only after convincing from Howe did he say to "get it done". I suspect that Loghein saw in Howe what the Couslands did before Howe betrayed them, a trust worthy friend and political ally.

On my third playthrough I also noticed that Loghein had no direct contact with the Alienage and there was no clear indication that he knew of the slave trade. He did know that there was a plague in the alienage and that mages were there to do something, I don't believe he knew what the mages were doing with the elves and I don't believe he cared. He was being given war funds to look the otherway and he reasoned that the alienage was already lost, he likely thought that for the good of Fereldan he thought it a necessary evil.

On my third playthrough I also noticed a difference in how I perceived Loghein. Where at first he seemed angry and psychotic, he now seemed passionate and concerned, like he saw something no one else around him saw.

Oh and between Bhelen and Harrowmont, it was a choice between a Kinslayer Progressive Tyrant and a Racist Fascist Tyrant. Harrowmont believed that the castless should have never been born and had no right to exist. Bhelen killed his brother and framed his other brother take the fall. When I sided with Harrowmont Bhelen yelled out as a battle cry "You killed my father" or something like that, which makes me think that Bhelen wasn't behind his father's death as I first suspected.

In the mage tower I considered Cullen's argument, I find that I actually agree with him. In real life I would have culled the entire mage circle rather than risk letting an abomination loose, because a single abomination could rip open the fade if it went undetected.

Events regarding the Dalish still seem clear cut to me, though I recognize that the werewolves showed no mercy and felt no pity for the innocents they were causing to suffer. They also seem more clear in Redcliff, though at the time of the decision you don't know what will happen if you go for help, and the blood magic option is a moral grey area.

Oh and with Morrigan, I suspect somehow that by the final scene in Redcliff she's actually Flemeth, and that she gets her way somehow in the end no matter what you do.
 
BioWare is amazing to have created a story that you can experience in so many different ways.

[ValentineHeart82]

Must... Sleep... Soon...\\

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:15 .

[geminiflyer123]

LOL, I read it. So there. I have to agree, the characters in this game have a lot of depth and their motivations are not clear or simplistic in most instances.

[tmp7704]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

On my third playthrough I also noticed that Loghein had no direct contact with the Alienage and there was no clear indication that he knew of the slave trade.

He tries to justify it and isn't in the slightest surprised when you bring it up. Also, the documents you retrieve from the slaver which authorize the deal are said to bear his seal.

[Lucy Glitter]

Who said people didn't think it was complex? I certainly didn't. I think some folks focus more on the plot than the characters, which is why they might think that. It is the people in the world that make this game.

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:31 .

[RunCDFirst]

I'm not sure what sort of comments you were looking for. Someone to disagree perhaps?

Though what you have pointed out is that some characters are more complex than they first appear. There's loads of threads debating Loghain and the morality of his actions. If he wasn't aware of all the crimes committed in his name, then he is a very inept ruler.

I also noticed that you seemed to suggest Anora is behind more of the devious maneuvers. I think that's just sliding the blame from one character to the next. There is no reason for Anora to have poisoned Arl Eamon. She has more claim on the throne than he, she is the sitting monarch and wife of Cailan. The only reason that Arl Eamon makes a bid for the throne with Alistair is because Loghain is claiming the throne as acting regent. And why Anora would poison someone who could help her wrestle the throne from the hands of her father seems... a bit counter productive. Not to mention that the Templar who found Jowan is in Howe's dungeon, someone who clearly isn't allied with Anora.

[ValentineHeart82]

tmp7704 wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

On my third playthrough I also noticed that Loghein had no direct contact with the Alienage and there was no clear indication that he knew of the slave trade.

He tries to justify it and isn't in the slightest surprised when you bring it up. Also, the documents you retrieve from the slaver which authorize the deal are said to bear his seal.

Loghein knew they were up to something nasty, but the documents just gave them the authority to operate there, I don't think they clearly outlined slave trading. When he explains his opinion that the Alienage is lost he does so as if to dismiss the charge of his involvement out of hand.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Erik Mcvay]

Cailan wanted to wait for reinforcements but they were from Orlais and Logain hates them so he refused the idea of it, Logain suffers from (imo) extreme paranoia, his involvement in the slave trade was by permission, not personal as he stamped the papers allowing the tevinter mages to be in there and you cant forge a royal seal, or noble actually he isnt king yet, Cullen was paranoid and for good reason if people could control minds i would always wonder, Bhelen was also my choice as well because he gave more rights to the casteless, he may be "evil" but does things for the greater good, reminds me a little of lelouch from code geass, as an end note i hate Howe i wish i could have tortured him.

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I'm not sure what sort of comments you were looking for. Someone to disagree perhaps?
Though what you have pointed out is that some characters are more complex than they first appear. There's loads of threads debating Loghain and the morality of his actions. If he wasn't aware of all the crimes committed in his name, then he is a very inept ruler.
I also noticed that you seemed to suggest Anora is behind more of the devious maneuvers. I think that's just sliding the blame from one character to the next. There is no reason for Anora to have poisoned Arl Eamon. She has more claim on the throne than he, she is the sitting monarch and wife of Cailan. The only reason that Arl Eamon makes a bid for the throne with Alistair is because Loghain is claiming the throne as acting regent. And why Anora would poison someone who could help her wrestle the throne from the hands of her father seems... a bit counter productive. Not to mention that the Templar who found Jowan is in Howe's dungeon, someone who clearly isn't allied with Anora.

Eamon has a claim by blood because no one knows of Alister yet, and Eamon is the only viable blood relative of the king.

I think an important distinction is that the templar was found in Howe's dungeon. Howe seems to be connected directly or indirectly to a LOT of nefarius deeds in this game.

The issues between Anora and her Father are more complicated. Anora's charges against her father are likely false, I guess there's just know way to know for sure though. After she betrayed me and accused me of kidnapping it was kind of hard to trust her charges against her father.

[Dsurian]

Meh...Loghain i'd still consider a bit too crazy. Though crazy can sometimes be good if weilded correctly, so i absolutley dispise the fact that you cant choose both alistar and loghain. As far as the Alienage, hes just racist towards elves, like most of the higher standards of men (nobility, warriors, etc.). And Morrigan/Flemeth(oh yes, i agree that its extremely likely that Flemeth has already possessed Morrigan by then), the one thing that i really dont get is that if there is a sacrifice, how does she get her way? I mean, the fact that you have a fully developed soul being hit with the soul of a old god (as i understand it) causes you(or another grey warden) to die and both souls transcend. So, if you reject the whole love making scene entirely, im utterly puzzled how Morrigan could possibly 'get her way in the end' anyways.(Note: If this wasnt true - if you could somehow argue that the archdemons soul didnt trancend - then it would have to be true that every grey warden in the vecenity of the death of an archdemon would die due to the soul rebounding between them all...and if Morrigan/Flemeth had another way, then i'm sure she wouldnt have even bothered with you at all).

[RunCDFirst]

Erik Mcvay wrote...
Bhelen was also my choice as well because he gave more rights to the casteless, he may be "evil" but does things for the greater good, reminds me a little of lelouch from code geass, as an end note i hate Howe i wish i could have tortured him.

Psh, why give rights to casteless? All they're skiled for is murdering, begging and stealing. Not the type of people you want up in the dwarf proper.

[ValentineHeart82]

Bhelen reminds me of Napolean in a lot of ways. A true archetype of the magnificant bastard.

[ValentineHeart82]

I would point out that in the end, Loghein WANTS to sacrifice himself for Fereldan. And when given the choice to lay with Morrigan, he must first know that the child will never plague Fereldan or her people. Loghein is the achetype of the radical patriot I think.

[RunCDFirst]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Eamon has a claim by blood because no one knows of Alister yet, and Eamon is the only viable blood relative of the king.

I think an important distinction is that the templar was found in Howe's dungeon. Howe seems to be connected directly or indirectly to a LOT of nefarius deeds in this game.

The issues between Anora and her Father are more complicated. Anora's charges against her father are likely false, I guess there's just know way to know for sure though. After she betrayed me and accused me of kidnapping it was kind of hard to trust her charges against her father.

You think Anora may have locked herself up in Howe's estate?
I think it's shown quite definitively that Loghain takes the throne from Anora. He acts without her authority and dismisses her attempts to question him. Sure, I seriously doubt she felt her father was going to kill her, but I don't think she had any power while he sat on the throne. I do like that she betrays those that betray her.
Howe does seem responsible for a lot of nefarious deeds. I'm playing the Human Noble now to see if there's any insight into his character or if he's just the stereotypical villain.

[ReubenLiew]

Bhelen was more Lenin-istic to me, actually.

Eamon doesn't really have blood-ties to the crown, and only slightly. He is Cailan's mother's brother. Whilst Cailan does share Eamon's blood Eamon himself has no blood ties to the Theirin bloodline.

[Erik Mcvay]

Howe does seem responsible for a lot of nefarious deeds. I'm playing the Human Noble now to see if there's any insight into his character or if he's just the stereotypical villain.

His voice screams stereotypical villian.

Modifié par Erik Mcvay, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:43 .

[RunCDFirst]

Erik Mcvay wrote...

Howe does seem responsible for a lot of nefarious deeds. I'm playing the Human Noble now to see if there's any insight into his character or if he's just the stereotypical villain.

His voice screams stereotypical villian.

Tim Curry is pretty awesome.

[tmp7704]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Howe does seem responsible for a lot of nefarious deeds. I'm playing the Human Noble now to see if there's any insight into his character or if he's just the stereotypical villain.

I thought it's interesting his major nefarious deed (taking over the player's castle et al) can be actually seen as just getting back what used to be his property. It doesn't make the way he goes about it any more acceptable, but it's not some crazy act coming completely out of the blue complete with moustache twirl; he does have some reasons why he'd feel entitled to it.

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 décembre 2009 - 04:46 .

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...
You think Anora may have locked herself up in Howe's estate?

More like Howe locked her in his estate. I suspect my elimation of Howe was convient for her, tying up loose ends.

RunCDFirst wrote...
I think it's shown quite definitively that Loghain takes the throne from Anora.

I think otherwise. I think you percieve that based on first impressions. You have only heard one side of the story, and things in Howe's estate are quite suspicious.

RunCDFirst wrote...
He acts without her authority and dismisses her attempts to question him.
Sure, I seriously doubt she felt her father was going to kill her, but I don't think she had any power while he sat on the throne. I do like that she betrays those that betray her.
Howe does seem responsible for a lot of nefarious deeds. I'm playing the Human Noble now to see if there's any insight into his character or if he's just the stereotypical villain.

Howe is clearly behind a lot more than you'd think on your first playthrough.

As for Anora, she betrays those who haven't betrayed her as well. She's quite cunning and manipulative, she wants the throne, and she's willing to marry you to get it if you're a human noble. Let's not forget that her first act as queen is to order Alister's execution.

[ValentineHeart82]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Bhelen was more Lenin-istic to me, actually.
Eamon doesn't really have blood-ties to the crown, and only slightly. He is Cailan's mother's brother. Whilst Cailan does share Eamon's blood Eamon himself has no blood ties to the Theirin bloodline.

Napolean had an entire city massacered, elderly, women, children. The killing lasted for three whole days, with thousands of soldiers at work doing it.

[RunCDFirst]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

I think otherwise. I think you percieve that based on first impressions. You have only heard one side of the story, and things in Howe's estate are quite suspicious.

I'm going off the cutscenes you see between acts. It shows that Loghain makes the decisions and whenever Anora confronts him, he dismisses her. It is not the way a servant would behave with his Queen and makes it clear that Loghain is deciding the fate of Fereldan at this moment.

Howe is clearly behind a lot more than you'd think on your first playthrough.

I'm glad more is explained. I can't wait to uncover it.

As for Anora, she betrays those who haven't betrayed her as well. She's quite cunning and manipulative, she wants the throne, and she's willing to marry you to get it if you're a human noble. Let's not forget that her first act as queen is to order Alister's execution.

When does she betray someone that hasn't betrayed her first? I agree she is both cunning and manipulative but she doesn't show that she's treacherous. She's the ideal ruler since she successfully follows the best outcome for the Prisoner Dilemma.

[Erik Mcvay]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

As for Anora, she betrays those who haven't betrayed her as well. She's quite cunning and manipulative, she wants the throne, and she's willing to marry you to get it if you're a human noble. Let's not forget that her first act as queen is to order Alister's execution.

Yeah i didnt like that i saw her true colors there, down right refused to let her do that i actually like Alistar, She is in control of a lot more than she lets on, the fact she knows so much about the joining also made me raise an eyebrow when she first said something about it.

[ReubenLiew]

And that reminds you of Bhelen?

Bhelen is trying to overthrow the Monarchy to improve the livelyhood of the common masses and is in the process of striping the power of the nobility to allow the greater majority of the lower caste peoples to provide a better economic equality for themselves.

I think he's way more Lenin than Napolean.

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I'm going off the cutscenes you see between acts. It shows that Loghain makes the decisions and whenever Anora confronts him, he dismisses her. It is not the way a servant would behave with his Queen and makes it clear that Loghain is deciding the fate of Fereldan at this moment.

On military matters he still has legitimate authority. She could always give a direct order as queen. Besides what does she say that he dismisses exactly?

RunCDFirst wrote...
I'm glad more is explained. I can't wait to uncover it.

I look forward to the DLC myself.

RunCDFirst wrote...
When does she betray someone that hasn't betrayed her first? I agree she is both cunning and manipulative but she doesn't show that she's treacherous. She's the ideal ruler since she successfully follows the best outcome for the Prisoner Dilemma.

She accused me of kidnapping and tried to have Alister killed, and then she massacered my people in the Alienage because they demanded food.

[Archonsg]

<text deleted - double post>

Modifié par Archonsg, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:16 .